Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber.

This gets back to Dany giving the horse "her head" and Ser Gregor cutting off the head of his horse when it show interest in the mare "in heat". Probably also whores / horse wordplay here. 

So intriguing.

[Seams]

Bran, Jon and Tyrion. Any others? 

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There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

Bran spread his arms and flew.

(AGoT, Bran III)

 

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"Try." Jon reached back for his sword, but one of them grabbed his arm and twisted it behind his back.

"You make us look bad," complained Toad.

"You looked bad before I ever met you," Jon told him. The boy who had his arm jerked upward on him, hard. Pain lanced through him, but Jon would not cry out.

Toad stepped close. "The little lordling has a mouth on him," he said. He had pig eyes, small and shiny. "Is that your mommy's mouth, bastard? What was she, some whore? Tell us her name. Maybe I had her a time or two." He laughed.

Jon twisted like an eel and slammed a heel down across the instep of the boy holding him. There was a sudden cry of pain, and he was free. He flew at Toad, knocked him backward over a bench, and landed on his chest with both hands on his throat, slamming his head against the packed earth.

(AGoT, Jon III)

 

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"Is beans," Mord said. "Here." He held out the plate.

Tyrion sighed. The turnkey was twenty stone of gross stupidity, with brown rotting teeth and small dark eyes. The left side of his face was slick with scar where an axe had cut off his ear and part of his cheek. He was as predictable as he was ugly, but Tyrion was hungry. He reached up for the plate.

Tyrion sighed. The turnkey was twenty stone of gross stupidity, with brown rotting teeth and small dark eyes. The left side of his face was slick with scar where an axe had cut off his ear and part of his cheek. He was as predictable as he was ugly, but Tyrion was hungry. He reached up for the plate.

Mord jerked it away, grinning. "Is here," he said, holding it out beyond Tyrion's reach.

The dwarf climbed stiffly to his feet, every joint aching. "Must we play the same fool's game with every meal?" He made another grab for the beans.

Mord shambled backward, grinning through his rotten teeth. "Is here, dwarf man." He held the plate out at arm's length, over the edge where the cell ended and the sky began. "You not want eat? Here. Come take."

Tyrion's arms were too short to reach the plate, and he was not about to step that close to the edge. All it would take would be a quick shove of Mord's heavy white belly, and he would end up a sickening red splotch on the stones of Sky, like so many other prisoners of the Eyrie over the centuries. "Come to think on it, I'm not hungry after all," he declared, retreating to the corner of his cell.

Mord grunted and opened his thick fingers. The wind took the plate, flipping it over as it fell. A handful of beans sprayed back at them as the food tumbled out of sight. The turnkey laughed, his gut shaking like a bowl of pudding.

Tyrion felt a pang of rage. "You fucking son of a pox-ridden ass," he spat. "I hope you die of a bloody flux."

For that, Mord gave him a kick, driving a steel-toed boot hard into Tyrion's ribs on the way out. "I take it back!" he gasped as he doubled over on the straw. "I'll kill you myself, I swear it!" The heavy iron-bound door slammed shut. Tyrion heard the rattle of keys.

(AGoT, Tyrion V)

Our three main characters are confronted with Death, Toad and Mord. "Tod" is the German word for death; "mord" is at the root of the word "murder" in several languages, although it can also mean "bite". 

There is also an element of falling in each passage: Jon slams Toad's head against the earth, which is what would happen if Bran or Tyrion completed the falls in their situations. 

Instead of killing Mord, Tyrion makes a deal to give him all of the gold in his purse if the jailer will bring a message to Lysa. Mord uses the gold to fix his teeth. So Tyrion upgrades Mord's bite, it would seem. 

With help from the smith, Donal Noye, Jon Snow becomes friends with Toad and the others who are trying to beat him in this scene. 

If Tyrion and Jon Snow reach a detente with their "death" foes, what does this say about Bran's relationship with death?

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Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

(AGoT, Bran III)

 

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There were salads of spinach and chickpeas and turnip greens, and afterward bowls of iced blueberries and sweet cream. . . .

"Benjen Stark is still First Ranger," Jon Snow told him, toying with his bowl of blueberries. The rest might have given up all hope of his uncle's safe return, but not him. He pushed away the berries, scarcely touched, and rose from the bench.

"Aren't you going to eat those?" Toad asked.

"They're yours." Jon had hardly tasted Hobb's great feast. "I could not eat another bite." He took his cloak from its hook near the door and shouldered his way out.

(AGoT, Jon V)

 

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It was cold in the cell, the wind screamed night and day, and worst of all, the floor sloped. Ever so slightly, yet it was enough. He was afraid to close his eyes, afraid that he might roll over in his sleep and wake in sudden terror as he went sliding off the edge. Small wonder the sky cells drove men mad.

Gods save me, some previous tenant had written on the wall in something that looked suspiciously like blood, the blue is calling. At first Tyrion wondered who he'd been, and what had become of him; later, he decided that he would rather not know.

(AGoT, Tyrion V)

Each of our main characters is feeling a longing or compulsion toward blue ice, but each resists or, in Bran's case, learns to fly. 

Does blue = death? Other excerpts from these characters use blue in reference to rivers, mountains and The Wall. Does it represent winter? If so, what do we do with Brienne of Tarth? She is often mentioned in connection with blue. 

Lances and spears also feature in each passage. The Eyrie is built on a mountain called The Giant's Lance.

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Does blue = death? Other excerpts from these characters use blue in reference to rivers, mountains and The Wall. Does it represent winter? If so, what do we do with Brienne of Tarth?

Blue representing death and associated with winter, yes, imo. 
Alayne's blue eyes are like a sunlight sea that men will drown in:

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Petyr studied her eyes, as if seeing them for the first time. “You have your mother’s eyes. Honest eyes, and innocent. Blue as a sunlit sea. When you are a little older, many a man will drown in those eyes.”

The petals of Lyanna's blue winter roses, blue as the eyes of death:

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“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. 

The blue eyes of wights and Others. The Other's sword that flickers with a blue ghost light. 
With Brienne, the association comes right after a mention of her blue eyes:

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“Lady Catelyn, you are wrong.” Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. “Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it’s always summer in the songs. 

Mord reminds me of Craster a lot. His looks, the same brown rotten teeth, his missing ear and facial scar, done by an axe. Craster is stingy with his food, withholding it from the Watch, Mord withholds Tyrion's food. Tyrion symolically "arms" him by giving him gold which Mord uses for his teeth. Tyrion, whose preferred weapon is the axe, could be playing the part of LC Mormont giving Craster an axe here. Tyrion wore Benjen's bear skin cloak during the journey to the Wall. At the same time Tyrion is fearful of being pushed into the "blue" by Mord, perhaps an illusion to the babes being given to the blue-eyed cold gods.  

There's a strong castle in the Westerlands called the "Golden Tooth," the one Robb defeated by using a goat path found by Grey Wind.  Both Robb and Tyrion get past  "the Golden Tooth." This last could be informing us on Bran's being able to fly, i.e. his skinchanging powers, thus avoiding the ice-blue spikes, but also on Robb. Teeth can be swords and stood on their hilts form spikes. Grey Wind finding a way round the "teeth" then maybe suggests Robb also had the ability to "fly."

[Corvo the Crow]

Something for Jonsa shippers, a Jealous Jon.

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"Joffrey likes your sister," Jeyne whispered, proud as if she had something to do with it. She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend. "He told her she was very beautiful."

"He's going to marry her," little Beth said dreamily, hugging herself. "Then Sansa will be queen of all the realm."

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment. "Beth, you shouldn't make up stories," Sansa corrected the younger girl, gently stroking her hair to take the harshness out of her words. She looked at Arya. "What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He's very gallant, don't you think?"

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

 

Poor Jon, he is jealous because he's a bastard and won't be marrying blushing redheads to make them queen of all the realm.

[Seams]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

Bran, Jon and Tyrion. Any others? 

I'm turning my thoughts toward Jaime. 

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

With Brienne, the association comes right after a mention of her blue eyes

Excellent citation on Brienne. I think she does represent one of these "blue = death" characters - for Jaime and possibly Catelyn. Jaime wrestles with her on a bridge, similar to the ways that Bran, Jon and Tyrion wrestle or struggle against their death confrontations. He also befriends and arms her - with a sword made out of Ice (the Stark sword), an old shield with the Lothston bat sigil and saddlebags full of money and flour. (But the useful weapon called Pod comes indirectly from Tyrion.)

Brienne is also obsessed with Renly. Soon after Renly gives her a cloak, he dies. (And his dying word is, "Cold." He has given away his last cloak!) I think Bran feels cold while he is falling, right? Tyrion gets the Benjen bearskin and then the mountain clan/ Merillion shadowcat cloak, which Mord tries to take from him. Jon is working on getting his black cloak. I need a better cloak reference for Bran, but this seems to be another element shared in these blue/death interactions. I also have to check whether Jaime gives a cloak or armor to Brienne. Could be fatal, if he does. 

But maybe Renly "arms" Brienne, too. It is Gendry, the Renly-look-alike, who saves her from Biter, who is eating her face. (Bran eats a berry from the glass house before the climbs the Old Keep; Jon Snow gives his blueberries to Toad; a few beans blow back into Tyrion's cell when Mord tosses his plate into the blue. Biter gets only a couple bites of the peach that is Brienne's cheek.) Gendry refuses to eat the food that Septon Meribald has carried and given / had confiscated at the inn at the crossroads.

Brienne is sworn to Catelyn and seeking Sansa. Jaime was betrothed (or nearly betrothed) to Lysa. I think there is a "maid, mother and crone" trio here, and Jaime is linked to each of them (Joffrey is a mini-Jaime, imho). So Jaime befriending and arming Brienne may be a way of showing that he is battling Catelyn for control of death - or a powerful weapon equivalent to death. I.e., Brienne. Jaime is making peace in the Riverlands and he takes Edmure hostage - completely usurping the realm that Catelyn once prepared to rule. 

On the maid, mother, crone allusion: Toad talks about "having" Jon Snow's mother before they fight. Tyrion threatens to kill Mord, and we know that Tyrion "killed" his mother in childbirth. There is also a reference to Mord's "heavy white belly" giving a "quick shove," that could be a pregnancy and labor symbol.

So we just need to find a Catelyn symbol in Bran's fall - it could be in Cersei, who is a parallel to Catelyn in many ways and who wants Bran to die because he witnessed the incest. Or it could be in the gargoyles Bran uses to climb the old keep - foreshadowing Lady Stoneheart. 

This is making some sense in my head but I'm sure I will come back later and find this is incoherent, stream-of-consciousness. In a nutshell, I'm finding that there is a motif around characters wrestling with death, and blue has something to do with it. They emerge from the confrontation on a friendly footing with "death" and can then use the personified death as an ally or weapon. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Seams

[Evolett]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

n a nutshell, I'm finding that there is a motif around characters wrestling with death, and blue has something to do with it. They emerge from the confrontation on a friendly footing with "death" and can then use the personified death as an ally or weapon. 

Okay,  I see what you mean. Then, in Bran's case I would suggest he needs to turn those deadly ice-blue spikes, or perhaps the other "dreamers" into allies or weapons. There's a possible hint towards this with Davos who is saved by washing up on the "Spears of the Merling King." Those spears would normally mean the death of any ship straying too near. There's a mother reference - the Mother speaks to him, rebukes him for standing by when Mel burned the Seven. The Lyseni captain of the ship that rescues him has blue eyes, like Stannis, the king Davos serves. There's Euron, another likely "dreamer" with one blue eye and of course the Others, who could also be represented by the ice-blue spikes waiting to "embrace" Bran. As to the cloak - I think the weirwood is Bran's cloak. 

 

5 hours ago, Seams said:

But maybe Renly "arms" Brienne, too

Renly does arm Brienne posthumously. She draws his sword to fend off Emmon Cuy, keeps it and uses it until receiving Oathkeeper from Jamie. That's interesting. Both swords originally belonged to dead men, her shield to the extinct House Lothston as well as "flour," the ghost symbol, in her saddlebags. 

Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor.  My assumption here also is that the armor is the death reference. She originally wore her own cobalt-blue armor when she received the rainbow cloak and title Brienne the Blue. According to the Wiki, she leaves her plate armor at Storm's End and receives spare garb from Wendel Manderly. Jamie gives her a mail hauberk. I'm thinking the armor is also an "armour" - French love or lover reference. Renly, the man she loved, made her officially "blue," she's sworn to two people who become "ghosts." To round it off in line with your thinking,  perhaps Jamie giving her a mail hauberk is good news for him (if hauberks don't count as full armor?). This change in armor may mean a change in allegiance away from Stoneheart, her last sworn position, to Jamie - but her not swearing an oath to Jamie might be the point. 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Evolett

[Corvo the Crow]

More JonSa:

While I remember bringing this first part:

A previous Sansa Stark, heir(eldest daughter with no brothers) of a previous Rickon(son of Cregan the Old Man of the North) that married to a half-uncle, Jonnel one-eye Stark(son of Cregan and Lynara Stark) and that our Sansa is also the heir of a Rickon and has a half relation that is also named Jon and "one eyed" in the form of her supposed half-brother Jon who's got a scar from Orell's eagle...

I have never noticed this next part:

Jon stole his first redhead, Ygritte, from the claws of a predatory bird in the birds nest atop a mountain. Sansa, another redhead is(well, was) also in the nest of a predatory bird, a falcon, atop a mountain, the Eyrie.  IT gets even more interesting, both of these mountains are part of Valleys, Vale of Arryn and the Skirling Pass, and Skirling means a little trout or salmon. Trout, the sigil of the Tullys where Sansa is descended from on her mother's side.

skirling - Wiktionary

[Seams]

On 11/1/2022 at 4:26 PM, Evolett said:

There's a possible hint towards this with Davos who is saved by washing up on the "Spears of the Merling King." Those spears would normally mean the death of any ship straying too near.

Excellent comparison. Davos also survives on that rock by eating crabs, as I recall. When Tyrion is at The Wall, he joins in the crab feast with the officers of the Night's Watch. I wonder whether, in addition to his "wrestle" with Mord at the Eyrie, Tyrion is also wrestling with death at the blue ice structure known as The Wall? The crabs also have an armor symbolism, as well as the amputated hand symbolism with Jeor Mormont crushing a crab claw in his bare fist. Ser Alliser Thorne could represent the "spikes" (thorns = spikes) onto which Tyrion does not fall. But this points toward a further implied comparison by the author: Thorne = throne, and the Iron Throne is covered with spikes. We will eventually see Ser Alliser appear at court with the severed hand of Jaffer Flowers (I believe - adding to the flower = ghost symbolism) while Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne as acting Hand. 

So it might be that there are times when characters want to avoid falling onto spikes of blue ice (Bran's dream) and other times when they do want to be on the spikes. Is the difference in who is doing the inviting? (In the manner of the "Come into my castle" game?) Or do they need to eat crabs (wear armor) before coming into contact with the spikes?

On 11/1/2022 at 4:26 PM, Evolett said:

armor is also an "armour" - French love or lover reference

I love this. (The word is "amour," right? Only one "R"?) This could explain a major theme: love can protect people in a way similar to armor. This would help to explain why Jaime has a name similar to the French "I love" ( = j'aime ) and why Amory Lorch is a key figure in the background of ASOIAF. Maybe the point is that love can both protect and hurt, depending on the way it is applied. 

I have also been thinking again about the boar / bear puns - there are a few times where people talk about "the love you bear me" or a variation on that. I thought maybe bears have something to do with love. We see the same bear that kills Amory Lorch is soon killed by Brienne and Jaime working together. Maybe this is a moment that transforms Jaime's love from his unhealthy love for Cersei to his more noble love for Brienne. Lorch and Ser Gregor helped Jaime with the killing of the royal family. We have just discussed Cersei's link to Ser Gregor / Ser Robert Strong. The death of Amory Lorch and Jaime coming to the rescue of Brienne shows him turning away from Cersei, with the help of a bear. 

[Seams]

Spouses in love with hair - or are they in love with heirs?

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Afterward, Dany sent them all away, so she might prepare Khal Drogo for his final ride into the night lands. She washed his body clean and brushed and oiled his hair, running her fingers through it for the last time, feeling the weight of it, remembering the first time she had touched it, the night of their wedding ride. His hair had never been cut. How many men could die with their hair uncut? She buried her face in it and inhaled the dark fragrance of the oils. He smelled like grass and warm earth, like smoke and semen and horses. He smelled like Drogo. Forgive me, sun of my life, she thought. Forgive me for all I have done and all I must do. I paid the price, my star, but it was too high, too high …

Dany braided his hair and slid the silver rings onto his mustache and hung his bells one by one. So many bells, gold and silver and bronze. Bells so his enemies would hear him coming and grow weak with fear.

AGoT, Daenerys X

 

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It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

ASoS, Catelyn VII

Awhile back, I had guessed that the melted gold on the head of Viserys was connected to the "auburn" hair of Catelyn and her children: Au is the periodic table symbol for gold and "burn" is similar to melt. 

When Catelyn is killed, the bite of the steel is cold (as at Renly's death). As Dany prepares Drogo's body for death, she compares him to "warm earth" and refers to him as the "sun of my life." Of course, she will set fire to his body (after smothering him). 

So I'm wondering whether the tinkling bells in Drogo's hair somehow represent cold, while the auburn hair of the Tullys represents heat? These excerpts may offer further clues.

Viserys making it clear that he is not a bell-wearer nor connected to the warm earth:

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"I am the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, not some grass-stained savage with bells in his hair," Viserys spat back at her. He grabbed her arm. "You forget yourself, slut. Do you think that big belly will protect you if you wake the dragon?"

AGoT, Daenerys IV

Dany removed Drogo's bells before putting his (still living) body in a hot bath:

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Her handmaids filled the tub with tepid water that stank of sulfur, sweetening it with jars of bitter oil and handfuls of crushed mint leaves. While the bath was being prepared, Dany knelt awkwardly beside her lord husband, her belly great with their child within. She undid his braid with anxious fingers, as she had on the night he'd taken her for the first time, beneath the stars. His bells she laid aside carefully, one by one. He would want them again when he was well, she told herself.

AGoT, Daenerys VIII

The word "tingle" is used only three times in AGoT: when Drogo makes Dany's skin tingle with his touch (possibly including cupping her breasts) the first time they make love; when the bells tingle in the wounded Drogo's hair just before he falls off his horse; and when Jon Snow "cups" ice water in his burned hand during his attempt at desertion - the cold water makes his skin tingle. 

My surmise would be that certain blood lines have to find a safe way to incorporate the bloodlines of their opposite numbers: House Stark, associated with winter, can marry into the "auburn" Tully line without entirely melting. Catelyn can bear the children of Ned Stark and have some with auburn hair and some with Stark hair, but the cold of a steel blade hurts her hand and then cuts her throat.

If R+L=J, Jon Snow is a hidden Targ but he can drink ice water and feel reborn; his hand has been badly burned, but later he will be kissed by fire. Daenerys can marry Khal Drogo, whose hair features bells and who smells like the warm earth, but she can also survive the fire of his burning pyre. 

Viserys cannot withstand the melted gold, however. What is he lacking? My guess would be love. 

I may be wrong, though. Looking at the word "tingle" throughout the books, it appears 16 times. Almost always referring to a feeling in a wounded hand. The word "glint" describes eyes, armor and blades of weapons. There is a reference to light glinting off the Mander river and The Wall is glinting in one situation.

And Jaime Lannister's hair also "glints" a couple of times. So his glinting hair may be the opposite of Khal Drogo's tingling hair bells. 

My first guess about the meaning of bells came from Robert's Rebellion and the Battle of the Bells - I thought there was wordplay on "rebel." That may still be true, but I suspect it could relate to this hair and bell motif. The gold used to kill Viserys is made from Khal Drogo's belt, that is covered with gold medallions. The only wordplay I could think of for "belt" was the German word "lebt," meaning "lived." But it may make sense that a "belt" is part of the "bell" wordplay, with Viserys dying because he cannot abide having "bells" in his hair. 

We are told in some of the backstory that Ser Barristan could not find Robert Baratheon at the Battle of  the Bells. In ASOIAF, Ser Barristan feels tingling in his hand. Perhaps at this late stage in his life, after he has joined up with Dany, he is ready to sense the tingling associated with the bell motif. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Wrote this in another thread a week or so ago but deserves to be here as well.

Jon/Timmett parallels.

Timett is a one eyed men from the clan Burned Men and named a Red Hand, a leader, for his choice of burning an eye because it is customary to burn a nipple or a finger so his fellow clansmen were awed and elders chose him a leader. Jon is also a burned man and a red hand in the sense he has his hand burnt and despite having both eyes, could be considered one eye with the scar Orell's blue and grey feathered eagle gave him. Jon, just like Timett would also become a leader of men for his "clansmen"(Watchmen) with the support of his clan elders(Denys mallister and Cotter Pyke).

Remember that Jon stole his redhead in the valley called Skirling's Pass with the skirling being a little salmon or trout and he stole it from the clutches of a grey and blue feathered eagle, a bird of prey. Do we know of another redhead in a valley together with a blue and grey(well, not grey but close enough, white) bird of prey? Say Sansa with an Arryn Falcon? With the knowledge that Timett has returned to the Vale, would this mean that this Jon parallel would steal himself a redhead just like Jon did?

[Evolett]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

His hair had never been cut. How many men could die with their hair uncut?

The subtext here is that Drogo's lineage is unbroken. His hair has never been cut - he is heir to a bloodline that's survived and never been cut. 

8 hours ago, Seams said:

So many bells, gold and silver and bronze.

The different bells of different metals represent his ancestors, preserved through the ages. The silver, gold and bronze are not seen in Drogo because having black hair, "the seed is strong." But the silver-gold hair comes through in Rhaego (Dany's dream), which is only possible if Drogo also carried the inheritance for those colour types.
The context is, for Azor Ahai (Rhaego) to be reborn, both parents must come from his (Azor Ahai's) unbroken line of smoke (Drogo) and salt (Dany). Rhaego had been dead for years but his united soul returned to wake dragons from stone. 

8 hours ago, Seams said:

No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair

Catelyn's last words echo the same thing. Robb has just been killed and she believes her other two sons dead. "Don't end my lineage." But Catelyn cuts Jinglebell's throat, which might mean the complete end of the Freys - somethings she's working hard at as Lady Stoneheart. More ominously, Jinglebell's real name is Aegon ... Perhaps this is why the GoHH says this when she recalls her dreams:

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“I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.

During the Battle of the Bells King Robert hides while the bells ring madly, he fathers a girl named Bella, for the bells. Robert never had true heirs but his line does not end because he has at least 4 illegitimate children or "bellas" still alive. 

Patchface is a horned lord or green man type who has bells hanging and clanging from his antlered helm. He may be descended from a line of "green men" who now speak to him through the clanging bells, allowing him to impart "prophecies" or wisdom that others unfortunately do not understand. That bells "speak" is demonstrated by the three Bells of Norvos that control all human activity in the city.

When Dany's first bell is fixed into her hair, it tinkles and she begins to protest. But Jhiqui reminds her:

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“I have won no victories,” she tried telling her handmaid when the bell tinkled softly. Jhiqui disagreed. “You burned the maegi in their house of dust and sent their souls to hell.” 

Dany earns her first bell for ending the line of the Undying, ancients from the past, perhaps even her own ancestors. 

Tyrion and Dany's bells tinkle in Brown Ben Plumm's presence. 

 

8 hours ago, Seams said:

My surmise would be that certain blood lines have to find a safe way to incorporate the bloodlines of their opposite numbers:

Yes, like ice and fire, normally incompatible. I think this is what blue winter roses are all about. A winter flower that grows in a hothouse. Another form of frozen fire. Or salt and smoke - "milder" form of sea water (note - Drogo and the Dothraki feared the "poison sea") and fire.

I haven't looked at "tingling," paid more attention to "tinkling" so far. 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Evolett

[Seams]

I suspect that a "name day" has something to do with the Dayne symbolism. 

The first time "day" and "name" are used in the same paragraph, Catelyn Stark is telling us about the sword Ice:

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Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

AGoT, Catelyn I

Robert tells Ned that Jon Arryn fell ill after a tourney on Joffrey's name day. Then Jon Snow tells Benjen that he will be fifteen on his next name day. Then this:

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 "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Pretty clearly a link between Ashara Dayne and the words "name" and "day." 

Petyr Baelish says he lost the dagger with the dragonbone handle at Joffrey's name day tourney.

Jon again tells Benjen that he will be fifteen on his name day. Next thing we know, Benjen has disappeared and Jon Snow recalls that Benjen promised to be back for Jon's name day, but he never returned. (When a character says something three times, it is important.)

Then we hear about Dany's name day (in close proximity to mention of her unnamed horse called "my silver"). Bran's eighth name day is mentioned. Sam Tarly's father sends him to the Night's Watch on his fifteenth name day. Jon Arryn gave coppers to stable boys on their name day, according to Jory's interview of servants who might have noticed how Jon Arryn was killed. Lord Walder plans to take another wife on his 90th name day. Jaime gave Tyrion a horse on his 23rd name day, and that horse is butchered (by Bronn and the mountain clan men) and eaten on the way to the Eyrie. Syrio tells Arya of the day he was named first sword of Braavos.

Bran feels that Robb has been transformed into "half a stranger" though he has not yet reached his sixteenth name day. This is followed by Joffrey referring to his own name day three times (!!) in one Sansa chapter (AGoT, Sansa VI) with the conclusion that he will give her Robb Stark's head on his name day. 

In the ACoK prologue, Cressen thinks about Shireen's upcoming tenth name day. Then he talks about Patchface washing up the third day after the shipwreck, when Cressen had gone to the beach to "help put names to the dead." 

But this was something that really caught my attention:

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The words tumbled out desperately. "Drown him or have his head off, only . . . kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please . . . not today, not on your name day. I couldn't bear for you to have ill luck . . . terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so . . ."

...

"The girl speaks truly," the Hound rasped. "What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year." His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she'd said, desperate to avoid punishment.

Joffrey had initially planned to drown Ser Dontos in a cask of wine. Instead of killing him, Joffrey makes him into a fool. I think this is foreshadowing the nature of Joffrey's death: he appears to die after drinking wine (I know, I know - it could be the pie or the lemon cream on the pie) but symbolically, Joffrey may live on as Moonboy. So the "name day" magic transforms Joffrey into a fool. 

Then Tyrion arrives and becomes the new acting Hand of the King at the same name day tourney, perhaps a fitting bookend to the death of Jon Arryn after the previous name day tourney.

Then we are back to Jon Snow. Smallwood tries to claim the title of First Ranger, but Mormont says that he is withholding that title until the day comes when he names a successor to Benjen Stark. A reference to Maester Aemon counting a hundred name days followed by Salladhor Saan telling Ser Davos about the Lightbringer story, with reference to 100 days and the name of Nissa Nissa. Ser Davos soon recalls attending Joffrey's previous name day tourney (apparently the one where Jon Arryn fell ill) and seeing Thoros of Myr with his flaming sword. But people realized the sword was a fake and Thoros was beaten by Bronze Yon Royce. 

The references go on and on. 

What I'm not sure of is the intended meaning of the link between "name day" and "Dayne." It seems to have something to do with coming of age and swords and (maybe) finding one's destiny.

Robb becomes half a stranger before his name day. Jon Snow believes he has become a man on his name day. Sam Tarly is sent to become a brother of the Night's Watch. Joffrey may have become a fool on his name day. Dany contemplates her horse (while noting that her brother has become the Cart King). 

Anyone care to offer a theory about the name day / Dayne connection?

[Seams]

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Tommen's breathless laughter echoed off the walls as Tyrion clapped him on the backplate, and Sansa was startled to see that the two were of a height. 

(Clash, Sansa I)

If Sansa and Margaery are each married to a half man, do the two add up to be a whole man?

[Evolett]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:06 AM, Seams said:

The references go on and on. 

What I'm not sure of is the intended meaning of the link between "name day" and "Dayne." It seems to have something to do with coming of age and swords and (maybe) finding one's destiny.

Robb becomes half a stranger before his name day. Jon Snow believes he has become a man on his name day. Sam Tarly is sent to become a brother of the Night's Watch. Joffrey may have become a fool on his name day. Dany contemplates her horse (while noting that her brother has become the Cart King). 

That’s a fine collection of name day  references and I fear there are even more. Besides name and day mentioned apart from but close to each other there are very many “name day” and “nameday” references. So here's my take on the subject:

Connection to identity:

My first observation on name days a while ago informed me that name days are very much tied to identity and to changes in the identity of characters.  Ser Dontos is a prominent example of this, made to shed his identity as a knight to become a fool. It’s interesting that Tyrion who has a fair measure of “fool” symbolism also gains a new identity as Hand of the King on that very same day. Patchface, another fool, goes from being a clever witty, accomplished lad to losing his former identity along with his wits after drowning and returning to life. His real name, i.e. a symbol of his true identity, is lost to him and the reader.

Jon goes from being a boy to becoming a man on his 15^th name day (perhaps connected to killing his identity as a boy and embracing that of a man as maester Aemon advises). Sam is forced to accept a new identity completely removed from what he was born to on his 15^th name day. And so was Robb, forced to become a lord, battle commander and king under completely unforeseen circumstances, well before his time.

The Blue Bard came from a family of coopers and had been raised to the trade, but at twelve, took his destiny in his own hands and ran away to become a singer.

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In the end, the Blue Bard told them his whole life, back to his first name day. His father had been a cooper and Wat was raised to that trade, but as a boy he found he had more skill at making lutes than barrels.

 

I’ve always found what Gilly has to say about the naming of children intriguing:

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“Don’t you name him. Don’t you do that till he’s past two years. It’s ill luck to name them when they’re still on the breast. You crows may not know that, but it’s true.”

 .........

Gilly’s babe had gone to sleep. He was such a tiny thing, and so quiet that Sam feared for him. He didn’t even have a name. He had asked Gilly about that, but she said it was bad luck to name a child before he was two. So many of them died.

 

Varamyr’s brother Bump, killed by “Lump” dies three days before his nameday.

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Bump died, though. He died when he was two and I was six, three days before his nameday.

 

Since a name is an integral part of one’s personality, not naming a child before the age of two suggests it has no official identity or “self” before that time, implying also that the white walkers acquire babies with a “clean slate,” with no old identity to unlearn (as Theon’s example shows), ready to mold after whatever fashion suits the Others. Contrasting this and at the same time similar to not naming babies, are Patchface and Hodor, whose memories are wiped clean after traumatizing experiences and who do not remember their true names.

If “name day” is connected to Dayne, my first inference would be that we are looking for a Dayne who had to give up his identity to become someone else. From the clues at hand, perhaps this Dayne even forgot the identity he was born with, or had it wiped from his memory.  GRRM has given us very little information on the family and House. There may have been such a character in the past. Giving up one’s identity also ties in to becoming a “stranger,” someone that friends and family no longer recognize or even someone who leaves his town, city or land altogether to become a stranger in another country.

 

Connection to swords / weapons:

I’m inclined to link Tyrion’s childhood wish for a “little dragon” for his name day to the “little” Valyrian Steel dagger with the dragonbone hilt that Littlefinger claims Tyrion won at Joff’s name day tourney:

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Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.”

.......

Tyrion took a deep breath. “How did Littlefinger tell you I came by this dagger of his? Answer me that.” “You won it from him in a wager, during the tourney on Prince Joffrey’s name day.”

Tyrion never got a little dragon for his name day, neither did he ever own or win the dragonbone hilted dagger as Littlefinger claims. But on that tourney day, Jamie Lannister was defeated by the Knight of Flowers, a man who very much reminds Jamie of himself in younger days. Now we have two people sharing aspects of their personality.

Unlcie Gerion once gifted Tyrion on his name day with the books Wonders and Wonders Made by Man by Lomas Longstrider, and often had Tyrion recite the sixteen wonders of the world. Tyrion wanted to sail the world, a notion Tywin put an end to ten days before Tyrion’s sixteenth name day:

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Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age.

Gerion set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the Lannister’s ancestral blade Brightroar. He never returned, lost at sea.

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Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a “fool’s quest,” and forbidden him to take part.

Gerion is thus also associated with not returning, like Benjen, and as we will see below, with leaving for a far away place, as well as the connection to an important lost sword. Furthermore there is a fool reference, a "fool's quest."

 

Joffery demanding a name day gift from Sansa

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This is followed by Joffrey referring to his own name day three times (!!) in one Sansa chapter (AGoT, Sansa VI) with the conclusion that he will give her Robb Stark's head on his name day. 

Joffery actually demands a name day gift from Sansa and when she’s not forthcoming, says he’ll give her Robb’s head. This reminds me of Joff asking Sansa to kiss his sword, something we’ve discussed elsewhere. Perhaps the subtext here is he wants a “kiss” for his name day and he gives her Robb’s head to prompt her. This could allude to him eventually inheriting that which really belongs to Robb – Ice – part of it anyway – Widow’s Wail. Another interpretation alludes to the “whispering heads,” a tale Brienne hears while looking for Sansa. In other words, by presenting Sansa with her brother’s head, Joff wants Sansa to “kiss” Robb’s head to return him to life. Stealing another man’s inheritance ties neatly into the next name day mention solidly associated with taking another man’s sword:

 

Rolly Duckfield

Another name day sword mention is made by Duck, Aegon’s trusted master of arms and first member of his kingsguard:

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“My father made a longsword for me to mark my sixteenth nameday,” said Duck, “but Lorent liked the look of it so much he took it for himself, and my bloody father never dared to tell him no. When I complained, Lorent told me to my face that my hand was made to hold a hammer, not a sword. So I went and got a hammer and beat him with it, till both his arms and half his ribs were broken. After that I had to leave the Reach, quick as it were. I made it across the water to the Golden Company. I did some smithing for a few years as a ’prentice, then Ser Harry Strickland took me on as squire.

This seems like an info-dump to me. A longsword was crafted to mark Duck’s nameday but it was taken by another. That Duck’s hand was made to hold a hammer is worth an interpretation all on its own. But, as we see here, Duck had to leave Westeros where he joined the Golden Company. He left his old world and identity behind, including taking on a new name. What’s more, he became an apprentice smith.

 

Thoros of Myr

@Seams said:
Ser Davos soon recalls attending Joffrey's previous name day tourney (apparently the one where Jon Arryn fell ill) and seeing Thoros of Myr with his flaming sword. But people realized the sword was a fake and Thoros was beaten by Bronze Yon Royce. 

This is our first “Lightbringer” reference (unless Tyrion wanting a little dragon is also a Lightbringer reference). Thoros is also closely associated with another “Lightbringer” character, Beric. It’s interesting that Thoros, wielding his fake sword, is beaten by Bronze Yon Royce, the same man who beat Ned in a sparring session at Winterfell and whose son Waymar faced and was killed by the Others after they closely examined his sword. What could this be telling us? More on that further down.

 

Arya and Needle

Arya receives Needle from Jon. It’s a very special sword that is associated with another person who no longer has a home and who not only went through several identities and names, but is on her way to completely giving up all that in favour of becoming “no one.” This is when Arya gives up everything, except Needle; she is as naked as her name day:

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The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this. She padded up the steps as naked as her name day, clutching Needle. Halfway up, one of the stones rocked beneath her feet. Arya knelt and dug around its edges with her fingers. It would not move at first, but she persisted, picking at the crumbling mortar with her nails. Finally, the stone shifted. She grunted and got both hands in and pulled. A crack opened before her. “You’ll be safe here,” she told Needle. “No one will know where you are but me.” She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones.

 

Arya loses Needle to Polliver but wins her sword back, unlike the other characters who lost their swords (Duck, Robb / Starks). Arya is also a stranger in a strange land. Benjen becomes a “stranger” when he disappears beyond the wall, with Jon defacto taking his place, the “Stark blood” that Mormont needs at the Wall.
Jon is also a good candidate for wielding Lightbringer, of which another fake version was present at the Wall until recently. Thoros wields another flaming sword, a fake Lightbringer. Further, GRRM has attached King Arthur – Excalibur symbolism to Needle by having Arya hide the sword amid stone. In Arya’s example, Needle finds its way back into the hands of its rightful owner.

 

The keywords in all these examples include

-      a change in identity, usually perceived as inferior to the true identity, associated with becoming a fool

-      identity loss, memory loss / prophecy associated with Patchface

-      swords stolen from their rightful owners / swords lost

-      Lightbringer references and a hidden sword

-      becoming a “stranger,” losing and or leaving one’s home for another land, sometimes never to return

-      Duck being an apprentice smith reminds me in this context of Azor Ahai who forged a sword.

 

Going back to Thoros who was beaten by Bronze Yohn Royce. Some wordplay – “Yohn” seems like a version of “John,” while the “yce” in Royce translates to “ice,” alluding to Thoros being beaten by “Jon with Ice.” The Royce’s seat is Runestone, a place which GRRM has been as secretive about as Starfall. Runestone however recalls the historical runestones of the past which were monuments to fallen warriors and heroes.  If the author is using the traditional meaning, then the seat of the Royces, Runestone is a massive runestone memorial indeed, representing perhaps a hero of great renown.

Given all the other clues above, I think we are looking at a very convoluted tale detailing the life of the hero who wielded Lightbringer. Tales from the east would have us believe that this was Azor Ahai and perhaps that is the name given to him there. But I think that hero was “the last hero” known in the North of Westeros, a man with no name, with no identity known to us. Perhaps he came from afar, all the way from the south, a stranger to the North where he sought the CotF. Why his name disappeared from history may be hidden in further references surrounding the “name day,” of which there are many more.  

Possible connection to the Daynes

To bring this back round to the Daynes: Gerold Dayne seems important here. Though not directly connected to a mention of a name day, I think he is directly linked to the name day symbolism:

 

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“There was an Arthur Dayne,” Myrcella said. “He was a knight of the Kingsguard in the days of Mad King Aerys.” “
He was the Sword of the Morning. He is dead.”
“Are you the Sword of the Morning now?”
“No. Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.” (……)

“My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,” he complained. “Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?”

“He was a great knight,” Ser Arys Oakheart put in. “He had a great sword,” Darkstar said.
“And a great heart.” Ser Arys took Arianne by the arm.

Arianne introduces Darkstar as “a knight of Starfall,” but Gerold Dayne is from High Hermitage, from a cadet branch of House Dayne. Ser Arys Oakheart references the “great knight” and “great heart” of Arthur Dayne, while Darkstar mentions the “great sword.” All implying Dawn and it’s forging in the heart of a fallen star.

But Gerold has taken the name Darkstar (he has two names, alluding to two identities, also he is of Starfall and High Hermitage) and says he is of the night, implying that unlike Arthur Dayne, he sees himself as a “Sword of the Evening.” So, in this context, and that of the name day symbolism, his next question is quite important and revealing: Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?”

Is there someone else we should be remembering? Someone lost and forgotten, a hero of the past? A person who carried the title “Sword of the Evening,” someone like Darkstar with a dark heart, like Arya, who has hidden Needle away? Could the Sword of the Evening indeed have been the wielder of Lightbringer, the sword itself Lightbringer, the sword that guards the realms of men, the red sword of fire that burns bright in darkness, empowered according to legend by being thrust into the heart of a woman? A dark act perhaps vile enough in the eyes of the ancients to warrant leaving the hero of the Long Night unsung and forgotten?

Edited November 25, 2022 by Evolett
Typos

[Nadden]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:58 PM, Walda said:

On Ser Waymar's interaction with the Others, the Other approached Ser Waymar with a drawn longsword, at front guard or short guard. It is unclear if the blade was out before Ser Waymar warned "Come no farther". 

Martin purposely leaves it unclear about the blade being out for good reason.

 

On 8/6/2022 at 9:58 PM, Walda said:

Waymar's own stance is an extraordinary choice: holding his sword in both hands, high over his head. As if he was preparing to be a ritual sacrifice.

I believe his stance is called the Warriors pose and it’s similar the Luke Skywalker stance in the  1977 original Star War promotional poster. And it’s not obvious but Waymar and the Other do the exact same stance.

 

On 8/6/2022 at 9:58 PM, Walda said:

We know from various comments about 'drawn steel' that in Westeros, that is a signal that you are intending to fight. Robb displayed a bare sword on his lap when Tyrion asked an audience with him, to show him the enmity between their families. In Braavos simply carrying a sword was a sign you were prepared to fight any bravo you came across.

I believe that it’s Waymar’s understanding of ”drawn steel” that becomes his downfall. Note: Waymar has already drawn his steel.

 

On 8/6/2022 at 9:58 PM, Walda said:

The Others understood Waymar was issuing a challenge, and did him the courtesy of having only one of them answer his challenge. The shattering of Royce's sword seems to signal that the sport is over, and all the Others gather around to stab him with their longswords, rather than leave his dispatch to the one who fought him. Stabbing seems an odd way to use a longsword, and the frenzied way they do it, shredding his cloak, seems an inefficient as well as inelegant way of killing him. But that is how they do it.

I believe The Other was actually the Other Waymar. Waymar was fighting his own reflection in the “Great Rock”. The rock was made of obsidian and would have seemed like a black mirror. Waymar was figuratively scrying. Waymar’s sword shatters because he is beating it against a rock. The ones surrounding him, the “pale shapes” or “watcher” are reflections of the glittering jewels in the moonlight. They close in only when the hilt of Waymar’s sword falls. The dozen slashes are from the shards of obsidian and pieces of his own sword. The cracking of ice on the rock is what Will interprets as the mocking voices.

[Corvo the Crow]

Unlike Cersei and Jaime, Tyrion is most certainly not Aerys’ get. 
 

When he had the chance for favorite Targaryen pastime, sibling incest, he didn’t do it. Time and again he passed over Marei who is theorized to be Tywin’s daughter.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Unlike Cersei and Jaime, Tyrion is most certainly not Aerys’ get. 
 

When he had the chance for favorite Targaryen pastime, sibling incest, he didn’t do it. Time and again he passed over Marei who is theorized to be Tywin’s daughter.

This is the sort of reasoning I can really get behind, just not this time. Tyrion says (to the Widow?) that his ultimate reward in life would be to rape and kill his sister. The killing is nothing exceptional, but the rape?? There's something similar to Cersei herself, saying it's not fair she should share her favours with one brother but not the other (Lannisters can be pretty gross sometimes, with or without Targ input).

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This is the sort of reasoning I can really get behind, just not this time. Tyrion says (to the Widow?) that his ultimate reward in life would be to rape and kill his sister. The killing is nothing exceptional, but the rape?? There's something similar to Cersei herself, saying it's not fair she should share her favours with one brother but not the other (Lannisters can be pretty gross sometimes, with or without Targ input).

Yes but what you said happens after he was framed and forced into exile, at this point he doesn’t have good feelings for Jaime either. And the second one is not serious, he does it to provoke her if I recall.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes but what you said happens after he was framed and forced into exile, at this point he doesn’t have good feelings for Jaime either. And the second one is not serious, he does it to provoke her if I recall.

True - but the threat alone makes him exceptional among brothers, even very, very angry brothers.

I do think Tyrion has Targ blood, so it would have been a neat touch if he'd found Marei attractive - but he specifically tells us no (too cool irrc). Maybe it's because she has no Targ blood herself. Maybe it's because Tyrion prefers hot chicks, not cool blondes.

There was a poster ages ago who had a great little theory that Dancy was a parallel to Dany (mainly on the sound-alike name) and in future would have to compete with Marei/Cersei(?) to be chosen by Tyrion. Actually that bit is really hard to imagine, but it does line up nicely with Moqorro's vision of Tyrion as some kind of pivotal figure among the dragons.

[Corvo the Crow]

Cressen is a powerful Mage able to teleport, or at least do something akin to Luke Skywalker's force projection.

 

Cressen treated Barristan after Ruby Ford.

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"Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." He gave the king a long cool look. "Would that man were here today."

 

But he was also present in the siege of SE

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Maester Cressen remembered the day Davos had been knighted, after the siege of Storm's End. Lord Stannis and a small garrison had held the castle for close to a year, against the great host of the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne. Even the sea was closed against them, watched day and night by Redwyne galleys flying the burgundy banners of the Arbor. Within Storm's End, the horses had long since been eaten, the dogs and cats were gone, and the garrison was down to roots and rats. Then came a night when the moon was new and black clouds hid the stars. Cloaked in that darkness, Davos the smuggler had dared the Redwyne cordon and the rocks of Shipbreaker Bay alike. His little ship had a black hull, black sails, black oars, and a hold crammed with onions and salt fish. Little enough, yet it had kept the garrison alive long enough for Eddard Stark to reach Storm's End and break the siege.