Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh, if you want that I will make a new thread 

Have to be a bit later though as I have studying to do...

Sure, sounds great!

Sevenspeed on your studies!

[Seams]

Was Catelyn "drowned" after releasing the Kingslayer? And therefore immune to drowning (like followers of the drowned god)?

There's a cliche line from movies that goes, "He sleeps with the fishes," to indirectly convey that a person or body has been dropped into the sea. Here we see that Catelyn has been ordered to sleep with the fishes:

Quote

Ser Desmond nodded, plainly glad to be done with his distasteful task, but sad-eyed Utherydes Wayn lingered a moment after the castellan took his leave. "It was a grave thing you did, my lady, but for naught. Ser Desmond has sent Ser Robin Ryger after them, to bring back the Kingslayer . . . or failing that, his head."

Catelyn had expected no less. May the Warrior give strength to your sword arm, Brienne, she prayed. She had done all she could; nothing remained but to hope.

Her things were moved into her father's bedchamber, dominated by the great canopied bed she had been born in, its pillars carved in the shapes of leaping trout. Her father himself had been moved half a turn down the stair, his sickbed placed to face the triangular balcony that opened off his solar, from whence he could see the rivers that he had always loved so well.

Lord Hoster was sleeping when Catelyn entered. She went out to the balcony and stood with one hand on the rough stone balustrade. Beyond the point of the castle the swift Tumblestone joined the placid Red Fork, and she could see a long way downriver. If a striped sail comes from the east, it will be Ser Robin returning. For the moment the surface of the waters was empty. She thanked the gods for that, and went back inside to sit with her father.

ASoS, Catelyn I

Another death for Catelyn will come at the bedding for her brother, Edmure. Perhaps Catelyn was already dead, because of this earlier symbolic drowning. (She also saw herself drowning in the green of Renly's shiny enamel armor, I believe.) And we know that what's dead can never die.

I wonder about the significance of the "Ser Robin" name here, as well. Jon Arryn raised Ned and Robert, with the latter becoming king. "Robin" is the nickname of Jon's son: perhaps it is not a coincidence that this person sent to retrieve Jaime (the Kingslayer) is also named Robin. Maybe the Arryns play an important role as kingmakers in Westeros. An historic Lord Arryn was the first lord to bend the knee to the arriving Targaryens, iirc.

Robert Baratheon's parents drowned, allowing him to become Lord of Storm's End. Does Catelyn "drowning" clear the way for her children (or another heir) to move up in the succession for ... Riverrun? 

[Nadden]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:39 PM, Castellan said:

My take is the Other emerges to size him up. When Waymar raises and thus displays his sword the Other 'watches the moonlight running coldly along the metal" and  for a minute Will dares to hope because he sees the Other is considering his sword - he hopes with fear. But the Other, and his 'twins' see that this is not a flaming sword and proceed to kill him. They are not showing honour but the caution that an animal or a human would show before attacking a new foe. 

 

The prologue is a prologue to the whole series and shows the Others emerging and the failure of Waymar because he is not the last hero or Azor Ahai - his sword is made of plain cold steel. The Other's sword is made of some unearthly icy substance.

The Other does emerge; but at the same time Waymar emerges from the white of the new-fallen snow from the ridge behind him. Waymar steps in front of an obsidian black mirror. He sees a white shadow of himself and challenges himself. The challenge appears to be excepted, thus the pause, and he dances with his shadow. 
 

The watcher are the children of the forest who had been; not dead; not sleeping; but meditating near the black mirror. One was scrying. 
 

Neither Waymar nor Will actually die.

[Nadden]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:29 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Waymar's sword was drawn before he even laid eyes on the Other. Other walked with his weapon drawn, yes, but he was walking towards a man who was brandishing a sword. So the authority you are talking about would be the Other and not Waymar.

They both drew their sword at the exact same time:)

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:55 PM, Seams said:

Was Catelyn "drowned" after releasing the Kingslayer? And therefore immune to drowning (like followers of the drowned god)?

There's a cliche line from movies that goes, "He sleeps with the fishes," to indirectly convey that a person or body has been dropped into the sea. Here we see that Catelyn has been ordered to sleep with the fishes:

Another death for Catelyn will come at the bedding for her brother, Edmure. Perhaps Catelyn was already dead, because of this earlier symbolic drowning. (She also saw herself drowning in the green of Renly's shiny enamel armor, I believe.) And we know that what's dead can never die.

I wonder about the significance of the "Ser Robin" name here, as well. Jon Arryn raised Ned and Robert, with the latter becoming king. "Robin" is the nickname of Jon's son: perhaps it is not a coincidence that this person sent to retrieve Jaime (the Kingslayer) is also named Robin. Maybe the Arryns play an important role as kingmakers in Westeros. An historic Lord Arryn was the first lord to bend the knee to the arriving Targaryens, iirc.

Robert Baratheon's parents drowned, allowing him to become Lord of Storm's End. Does Catelyn "drowning" clear the way for her children (or another heir) to move up in the succession for ... Riverrun? 

 

FYI, the ritual drowning is a reference to Lovecraft's Shadow Over Innsmouth, when the fish people start to change, they go under the water and become immortal.  They drown, and then they live forever under the sea, where they worship the Drowned God, Cthulhu.

 

Speaking of Tully's drowning--tuile  means "flood, flowing, torrent" in Gaelic.  And caithlyn-- means "difficulty in swallowing" in Welsh, and Cat gets her throat cut--which, of course, makes swallowing difficult.  And she drowns in her own blood, and then is drowned in the river.  And her father Hoster died of a lung disease where he drowned in his own blood, and in Old Norse Hostr  means "throat"  and hosta means "cough"  There is probably some "torrent of blood from the neck" foreshadowing there too.

ETA: and tula  means "red"  in Hindi and arun means "red" in Hindin and a Tully marries and Arryn.   And more red flood imagery.

 

And I was just reviewing some Hoster passages, and realized that all of Hoster's kids are birthing bastards.

Tuilidhe means "bastard" in Gaelic and I think Ned and Cat's children are actually base born, because Ned was technically still married to Ashara.  And that would be fitting that Cat was so shitty to Jon about being a bastard, when he was the only trueborn in the whole family

Admidst all the "Tansy" abortion references it is implyed that Lysa aborted all of her children with Jon Arryn, and that Robin is actually Littlefinger's child.    (patr means "father" and Robin is a pet name and he is Petyr's son)

 

Her brother Edmure, yes; it would not have surprised her to learn that Edmure had a dozen natural children. But not her father, not Lord Hoster Tully, never.

Could Tansy be some pet name he called Lysa, the way he called me Cat? Lord Hoster had mistaken her for her sister before. You’ll have others, he said. Sweet babes, and trueborn. Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice at King’s Landing

 

Just like Cercei, she was aborting all the children conceived with her husband, and only birthed the bastard Robin.  The phrase "sweet babes, and trueborn" is ironic, because like Joffrey, Robin is a little piece of shit, and not trueborn.

 

And Hoster suckling the milk of the poppy like a teat, parallels Robin doing the same. 

Edited March 27 by Fun Guy from Yuggoth

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

I just learned that a chain across a river used for harbor defense, like the one Tyrion used at the Battle of the Blackwater, is called a "boom chain" so that is where the idea of a chain coupled with an explosion probably came from.  BOOM! + chain.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Another neck thing.  In Gaelic, several words that begin with sloig-- mean "neck" and "quagmire" and "to swallow" and "host"

And the Neck is a quagmire that swallows hosts that march into it.  And caol  [Moat Cailin] means "a narrowing" and "marsh"

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Jaqen stole Pate's face to get the key that opens all doors at the Citadel.

 

patefacio [pate + face] means "to open, to lay open, to throw open" in Latin (pateo, and patefactio mean the same)

pait means "simpleton" in Gaelic  [Pate is a simpleton]

paet means "guile, crafty" in Anglo-Saxon  [Pate gets tricked by Jaqen]

Pate means "pie" and pie means "piga, magpie" and Pate is a pig boy, and one of the usages of pie is a "black and white bird, magpie" and Pate cares for Walgrave's black and white ravens 

[and Jachin is one of the black and white pillars of Freemasonry, and he is from the House of Black and White]

 

 

Walgrave is senile, and in Welsh gwallgof means "loss of memory, to become distracted, insane"

 

wall + grave

in Ango-Saxon  walg means "all" and graf means "grave"

The Wall is the barrier between life and death, so his name might suggest that the door that Jaqen wants to open is the door through the Wall--to open all graves. 

wealh means "stranger" and Hagar / hagard means "stranger, strange" 

 

 

In Anglo-Saxon wael means "dead body, death, slaughter, carnage" and one of its compound words is

waelfell  [Wall + Fell] which means "cruel slaughter" and

waelfyll  [Wall + Fell] which means "Fatal slaughter" --when the Wall falls, the undead army will be released and slaughter mankind.

waelgryre means "deadly horror" and right below that is waelherige  "army, slaughter band" --so more undead army references

 

The Glass Candle is a reference to the Black Stone from Lovecraft's The Whisperer in Darkness, The Black Stone was an artifact from Yuggoth, and I think it could control Yuggoth, which is the Stranger.  

And In Robert E Howard's The Worms of the Earth, Bran Mak Morn steals the Black Stone. 

[Sandy Clegg]

53 minutes ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

Pate means "pie" and pie means "piga, magpie" and Pate is a pig boy, and one of the usages of pie is a "black and white bird, magpie" and Pate cares for Walgrave's black and white ravens 

Ooh i like this a lot. Pate in French is indeed a kind of pie, and magpie being a black/white bird is possibly very symbolic. Put it together with Hot Pie, another character with a pastry-like name and it gets even more interesting. It's that idea a of someone who represents a 'hot' interior which is different from their exterior. Kind of George's style to use food as metaphors for people, so this definitely could build to something.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Wow, I never noticed that The Ned looms over Bran like a giant in Game, Bran I. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

22 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Ooh i like this a lot. Pate in French is indeed a kind of pie, and magpie being a black/white bird is possibly very symbolic. Put it together with Hot Pie, another character with a pastry-like name and it gets even more interesting. It's that idea a of someone who represents a 'hot' interior which is different from their exterior. Kind of George's style to use food as metaphors for people, so this definitely could build to something.

Also, Biter is described as having a face that is made out of dough, and he and Rorge are black and white.

So there is a bunch of pie / black and white symbolism around Arya that foreshadows her going to the House of Black and White.  And the House of Black and White is a weirwood cave.

 

Regarding Biter's name, in Anglo-Saxon, biter means "bitter, cruel, wild beast" and Biter is a feral man. 

But he and Rorge are a metaphor for the Black and White weirwoods, and

chwerwedd  [Weirwood] means "bitter" and "wormwood" in Welsh, and wermod means "wormwood" in Anglo-Saxon

And the weirwoods are wormwoods, because their roots are the White Worm.

 

 

And check this out, Myrrh means "bitter" in Arabic, so when Dany burns Mirri Maz Duur, it was a metaphor for burning a Weirwood to hatch a dragon.

There is also connection between Myrrh trees and weirwoods in that Myrrh trees weep thick red sap when cut, like the weirwoods weep bloody tears.

 

ETA: also the Dragon Blood Tree weeps blood red sap, so there is another connection between having "the Dragon Blood" and weirwoods.

Edited April 4 by Fun Guy from Yuggoth

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Was just browsing Dinneen's Gaelic and noticed that

gonta  means "stabbed"  and in spanish junta  means "a military coup"

And the Watch overthrewn Jon in a junta by stabbing him to death (or so they thought)

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Wow, another House of Black and White reference with Jaqen,

jaque  mean "check, to check" as in Chess. 

Branan means "chess master" in Gaelic, and brannumh and brandabh  mean "chessmen" and  bran means "black" and "rook" and bradndair means "grid"

Bran is Jaqen

geocian  means "to save, to protect" and "savior" in Anglo-Saxon and Jaqen saves and protects Arya.

 

And in Freemasonry, a black and white checker board is depicted between the Black and White Pillars, Jachin and Boaz. 

And check this out, the The God's Eye is the All-Seeing Eye, the Eye of Providence, that is so common in Freemason/Illuminati symbolism.  And the House of Black and White and the Iron Bank is the Illuminati that manipulates world events.  And it is all a metaphor for the weirwoods manipulating events.

Illuminati means "enlightened" and "to see clearly" and what better symbol than a gigantic all-seeing God's Eye ["God'e Eye view"]

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

The word illyria  is on the same page as illuminatus in Harper's Latin.  And he and Varys are engaged in an Illuminati-style conspiracy.

And I had to dig hard for some word that sounded like "illyrio" and meant something, but I think I figured it out:

alarius  means "foreign army" in Latin, and he and Varys were planing a foreign invasion.  It also means  "wing" and he was supplying Varys with "little birds"

 

The best that I can come up with for Mopatis is:

mephitis which means "noxious exhalation from the ground, malaria" or "mephitic vapors" or "foul stench from underground" or "sulphurous"  [Mephisto is a demon/the devil] "mephitic vapors" is a phrase from Lovecraft's The Haunter of the Dark

which suggests Mopatis is in league with the devil, and Varys still hears the devil in his dreams every night.

and mephitis  is one the same page as a bunch of words that mean "merchant" or "mercenary" --and Illyrio was a mercenary / sellsword in his youth, and is now a merchant.

 

 

alarius also means "armpit" and mephitis means "foul stench" and Illyrio is said to reek of body odor.

mephitis means "sulfurous" and sulfur is bright yellow, and Illyrio has conspicuously bright yellow hair.

 

Illyrio Mopatis is carried in a palanquin, and mahpha  means "palanquin" in Hindi

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Gorne's Way is a series of tunnels that go under the Wall, and in Hindi

gohrna  means "to dig, to excavate, to hollow out, to scratch"

gurh  means "secret passage"

gor  means "grave, tomb"

garna  means "to bury"

girna / gerna  / giran means "to fall down, to collapse"  [and in Robert E Howard's the Worms of the Earth, an impregnable castle wall is brought down by digging a tunnel under it.]

 

And Gendel has to be a reference to the monster Grendel from Beowulf, and the mist-monsters from Michael Crichton's Eaters of the Dead, which is a retelling of Beowulf.  And the Others are mist-monsters, and Gorne's Way is the perfect way for them to get past the Wall.  Which Mel's shadow baby passing under the warded wall at Storm's End foreshadowed.

 

Now that I am thinking about it, those words about tunnels and tombs and collapses all relate to the Winterfell crypts too,  which is probably connect to all the underground tunnels under Westeros, including Gorne's Way.

[Lost Melnibonean]

A myrmidon is a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly. 

Ayrmidon is the author of Engines of War, a Valyrian scroll. 

[Mourning Star]

22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A myrmidon is a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly. 

Ayrmidon is the author of Engines of War, a Valyrian scroll. 

This meaning comes from Homer, and Achilles's Myrmidons, who are classically said to have their name derived from "ant".

"An ant who hears the words of a king may not comprehend what he is saying," Melisandre said, "and all men are ants before the fiery face of god. If sometimes I have mistaken a warning for a prophecy or a prophecy for a warning, the fault lies in the reader, not the book. But this I know for a certainty—envoys and pardons will not serve you now, no more than leeches. You must show the realm a sign. A sign that proves your power!"

Odd that the only copy of this Valyrian work was found in Winterfell.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"
The next morning she woke stiff and sore and aching, with ants crawling on her arms and legs and face. When she realized what they were, she kicked aside the stalks of dry brown grass that had served as her bed and blanket and struggled to her feet. She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed. Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many …
It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros. The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he'd built it himself.

Edited April 7 by Mourning Star

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime, "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

I wonder if this was a foreshadowing of the original subplot to have Tyrion banished  to the Wall for murdering Joffrey and falling for Arya? 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

56 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A myrmidon is a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly. 

Ayrmidon is the author of Engines of War, a Valyrian scroll. 

airm  is the Gaelic spelling of "weapons, arms" and armado  means "armed" in Spanish

 

Speaking of Myr, Myr is famous for its glass making, I just learned that the Venetian island of Murano was famous for glass making--in addition to the myr / mirror / mere wordplay.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Just found some more clues that Ashara Dayne is Lemore. 

lumiere  means "light, daylight" in French

la mere  means "the mother"

le morte means "the dead" and lemur means "ghost"

le muir  means "the wall" 

le moire / la mer  means "the water, the sea"

 

muer means "to slough, to shed ones skin" and Ashara is the Sloe Eyed Maid, and sluaigh  means daoine  in Gaelic.

moeur means "habit" and Lemore is a nun, and nuns wear habits.