Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

So gryja  means "dawn" in Old Norse, and that is where the name Greyjoy comes from.  (greyking and krieken mean "dawn" also which are central to Greyjoy's mythology of the Grey King and the Kraken)

 

aidire / eidire  means "guardian" and "hostage" in Gaelic

And teon means "to raise up, to educate" in Old English, so having Theon be Eddard's hostage that he fostered at Winterfell, is suggesting a Dayne being raised at Winterfell, that is, the sun rising in the North.

 

And I just found that theon is spelled ðeon in Old English, which looks like Deon / Dayne, so Theon Greyja ~ Dayne Dawn

[and his sister is Asha, the Shy Maid]

Reek is Theon's alter ego, and daunn  means "to reek" in Old Norse

 

theon means "to grow" and Theon grows up at Winterfell.

Theon gets tortured, and Arteithiwr means "torture" and is directly above Arth in the Welsh dictionary.  Which doesn't bode well for Mance, I think he is going to be caught by Ramsey and tortured.

 

then means "to serve" and Theon is made to serve Ramsey.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder if this was a foreshadowing of the original subplot to have Tyrion banished  to the Wall for murdering Joffrey and falling for Arya? 

Would provide context for this comment by Jon to Arya in the next early chapter of Game...

Quote

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle." 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Promise me Ned

Eidr  means "oath, promise" in Old Norse  (and ljug-eidr  [Lya + Eddr] means "false oath, broken promise" and nid means "false oath, libel")

 

In Welsh a bunch of words that sound like Eddard mean "to promise, oath"  addaw / addewid / addo   [gofuned means "to promise" is that where GoFundMe came from? because you are promising to buy something?]

 

In Old English aðwedd  means "to promise"

(wedd means "to promise" and treow means "tree" and "to promise" and weddings take place in front of a heart tree]

 

 

daingean  means "to promise" and tairngaire  means "to promise, the promised one, the Messiah"  --which is probably where the idea of Jon being a Dayne or a Targ came from.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Would provide context for this comment by Jon to Arya in the next early chapter of Game...

 

Some of the foreshadowing in the early Game chapters really comes into view when you consider the original outline The George had sent to his publishers as he began work on the saga. 

In the beginning of the first Eddard chapter, Robert wears a hood that covers his ears, and as the two ride hard together, The Ned calls out a question, but Robert fails to hear. 

At the end of the chapter, The Ned tells Robert how he found the Kingslayer sitting the Irone Throne, keeping it warm for their friend Robert. 

In the original outline Jaime was set to succeed Joffrey by murdering him and blaming it on Tyrion. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Figured out Shireen's name

seirgean  means "withered or shriveled person" and "sickly consumptive person" and "shrunken form" in Gaelic, and a bunch of similar-sounding words mean "shriveled, withered, blasted"  (seargan, sgraidh, sgreag, etc)

And Greyscale is a reference to the spreading disease from The Color Out of Space that is caused by a vampiric vapor/fungus that landed on Earth in a meteor, and causes everything to become dry, withered and blasted.  (and the word "blast" means "fungus")  Which implies that the Greyscale comes from the weirwoods (wyre  means "to spread, to reach out" in Welsh, and the weirwoods are a kind of fungus, and their leaves are hand-shaped)

 

crannach [~Crannog] means "dwarfish, decrepit person" and crann means "shriveled" and Jojen had Greywater fever, which I think is a mild variant of Greyscale  (and creiniog means "frog" in Welsh)

 

And I just found a word that sounds like "greyscale" in Gaelic

graisgeil  means "blackguard" and "rabble, worthless people, low people, offscouring, vulgar"

The Night's Watch is literally a blackguard.  They are a defensive force made up of rabble, and they wear black uniforms.

Which could imply that the Greyscale epidemic sweeping over Westeros is a metaphor for the Night's Watch coming down and killing everyone.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Figured out the connection between the Others and the Frost Giants from Norse mythology

Ymir was the first Frost Giant, and

Y Meirw  means "the Dead Ones, the Dead"  in Welsh

 

So I think George is saying that the myth of the Frost Giants who destroyed Norse civilization at Ragnarok was actually based on the coming of the Dead Ones who were made of Ice.

 

uthr [the Others] means "terrible, awful, horrible" in Welsh

uthere  means "foreign army" in Anglo-Saxon and the prefix  ut / uth means "outsider, stranger, foreigner" and they are from beyond the Wall--outlanders.

[Seams]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:53 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Quote

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime, "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

I wonder if this was a foreshadowing of the original subplot to have Tyrion banished  to the Wall for murdering Joffrey and falling for Arya? 

That is an interesting set of images. That breakfast of the Lannisters is an important symbolic moment and we know it includes other foreshadowing:

Quote

The bacon crunched when he bit into it. Tyrion chewed thoughtfully for a moment and said, "He thinks that if the boy were going to die, he would have done so already. It has been four days with no change."

AGoT, Tyrion I

Crunch and bacon together would seem to refer to Tyrion's eventual interlude with Penny. ("No change" could also allude to the coin motif linked to Penny, groat, the Gardner coin under the Red Keep, Master of Coin, etc.)

My guess would be that Tyrion showing "wolfish" characteristics alludes to the Stark children, who combine wolf (Stark) and fish (Tully) heritage. But the black in his mouth (black beer) might tell us that we are seeing a Black Fish moment, referring to Uncle Brynden Tully. The protestation about how much he loves his family could also be a House Tully allusion ("Family, Duty, Honor" are the house words). The passage you cite follows Tyrion saying that he hopes Bran will recover so they can find out what he has to say and Jaime reacting as if this comment from Tyrion is deliberately intended to get Jaime in trouble. 

I don't necessarily see that passage as foreshadowing of the original plot; it does seem to me like a foreshadowing of the Lannister and Stark/Tully personal conflict: Jaime really did push Bran out of a window; Catelyn will take Tyrion prisoner because she suspects him of trying to kill Bran; Robb will take Jaime prisoner of war; a Karstark (Stark proxy) will kill a couple of Lannister cousins; Roose will say, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," when killing Robb; Jaime will try to take the Black Fish prisoner.

So far, all we know of the next step is that uncle Brynden seemed to escape the grasp of the Lannisters and Freys by swimming under the portcullis at Riverrun. (I wonder whether Tyrion's mouth is a portcullis in that Winterfell breakfast scene?)

A plan to have Tyrion sentenced to take the black at The Wall would fit with a lot of this - there is a motif of justice, imprisonment and killing - including regicide. The death of Joffrey and the attempt to kill Bran are certainly parallel events. Isn't it interesting that GRRM can achieve similar things without pursuing the original plot outline (or so we suspect). Instead of the death of Joffrey, Jaime and Tyrion are both involved in, or implicated in, attempts on Bran's life. Tyrion is taken prisoner in the ice cells at the Eyrie instead of going to the Wall. Jaime is a kingslayer, we learn, but we don't suspect him of slaying Joffrey. (I do suspect Ser Ilyn Payne of having a role in Joffrey's death, and he becomes the sparring partner who trains Jaime's new sword hand after Jaime's kingslayer hand is amputated.)

That breakfast scene is one that is worth re-reading closely.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Seams

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Embarrassed to say I just realized the wordplay on Lysa / Lies--as everything she did was a lie. 

She poisoned her husband with the Tears of Lys, ["false tears"] and

lleasu means "to slay"  and lleas  means "death, slaughter" and in Welsh.  So that is probably definitely where the "Tears of Lys" comes from

 

Found something about Hoster and Tansy.  Hostr / hosta  means "cough" and "throat" and he coughs up blood, and tansey is a homemade cough medicine made from boiled whiskey, butter, sugar, and hot milk.  So when he says "tansy" and "blood" I think George was tongue-in-cheek, as he could have just been asking for cough medicine.  And in Gaelic tansey is called scaillin or scailtin which is pretty close to Catelyn.

And the tansey plant is called lus-na-Frainnce  and lus-na ~ Lysa

 

Leasan  means "a delicate or consumptive person"  and Hoster dies of consumption or whatever it was, and Sweetrobin is a very delicate person.

 

leysa means "freed, loosened, untied" in Old Norse, and when she kills her husband she is a freed woman, and is free to be with her true love Petyr.  Leysingi  means "freedman" that's probably where Lyseni came from.

[sweetsunray]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:48 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Some of the foreshadowing in the early Game chapters really comes into view when you consider the original outline The George had sent to his publishers as he began work on the saga. 

In the beginning of the first Eddard chapter, Robert wears a hood that covers his ears, and as the two ride hard together, The Ned calls out a question, but Robert fails to hear. 

At the end of the chapter, The Ned tells Robert how he found the Kingslayer sitting the Irone Throne, keeping it warm for their friend Robert. 

In the original outline Jaime was set to succeed Joffrey by murdering him and blaming it on Tyrion. 

The description of Tysha is also a remnant of the original outline, because at least physically Tysha is a proto-Arya.

[sweetsunray]

A warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword (parallel)

The title are the words of the AA prophecy that Mel recites, in the mummery show she makes of the burning of the Seven statues and Stannis retrieving the sword from the fire. That sword is then glamored by Mel into Lightbringer. I will quote the description of Stannis retrieving the sword

Quote

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. His squires stepped up to attend him. Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king's right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed as he tied a stiff leather cape around His Grace's neck. [...] The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the king's clothing. (aCoK, Davos I)

This is a performance, a mummery, and there is nothing heroic about it. Stannis receives both a glove and cloak to protect him from the flames. Squires help him put it on. And then other men instantly beat out any cinder afterwards.

And then we have this scene far earlier

Quote

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. "Ghost!" he shouted. The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn. (aGoT, Jon VII)

A pure functional fire, with drapes for fuel. No gloves or shielding is used against the flames. But the naked hand grabs the burning drapes and flings them at the wight. And to this day Jon's hand remains scarred, painful and maimed. No one attended him, to dress him in protective gloves or a shielding cloak.
 

Quote

 

"You do not look well. How is your hand?"

"Healing." Jon flexed his bandaged fingers to show him. He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he'd felt nothing; the agony had come after. His cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. "The maester says I'll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before."

"A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you'll be wearing gloves often as not."

"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. (aGoT, Jon VIII)

 

Jon paid a heavy painful price. It's torture for weeks, and even afterwards, despite it healing, his hand can still ache or trouble him.

He didn't do it to retrieve or earn himself a magical sword. He did it to save the lives of Mormont, Ghost and himself, to kill the assassin wight. And yet, out of the fire Jon nevertheless retrieves a VS sword.

Quote

 

"Snow, how soon does Maester Aemon say you'll have use of that hand back?"

"Soon," Jon replied.

"Good." On the table between them, Lord Mormont laid a large sword in a black metal scabbard banded with silver. "Here. You'll be ready for this, then."

The raven flapped down and landed on the table, strutting toward the sword, head cocked curiously. Jon hesitated. He had no inkling what this meant. "My lord?"

"The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade, now … you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade." Mormont shoved the scabbard across the rough oak planks. "I had the rest made anew. Take it."

"Take it," echoed his raven, preening. "Take it, take it."

Awkwardly, Jon took the sword in hand. His left hand; his bandaged right was still too raw and clumsy. Carefully he pulled it from its scabbard and raised it level with his eyes. (aGoT, Jon VIII)

 

And of course there's the parallel of Stannis being asked to show off this blade, retrieved from flames while his hands were protected by gloves and he himself was shielded by a stiff cape, not just then, but ever after, and the scene where Pyp, Grenn, Toad, etc demand to see "the sword!"

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon paid a heavy painful price. It's torture for weeks, and even afterwards, despite it healing, his hand can still ache or trouble him.

He didn't do it to retrieve or earn himself a magical sword. He did it to save the lives of Mormont, Ghost and himself, to kill the assassin wight. And yet, out of the fire Jon nevertheless retrieves a VS sword.

To further illustrate that this scene is really about wielding Lightbringer, he literally used Mormont's Torch to kill the wight named Othor, and he briefly became the Fiery Hand of Rhllor, when he burned his hand with Mormont's Torch.  Suggests that the Red Sword of Heroes is the red comet, which is a sort of sword without a hilt.

And this whole scene takes place in a black solar --that is, under the Black Sun.  And the Othor has a moon face that Mormont's Torch gets launched into. 

 

Arth  means "bear" and after this scene Jon inherits the Bear's ancestral sword Long Claw, which is a stand-in for Dawn.  And Griff / griobh  means "long claw" and "grip" and there is the continuing theme about Jon and his sword grip with him clenching and unclenching his fist.

 

Rolloir [Rhllor]  means "swathe, rolling stone" and is on the same page as ruad  "red", [Red Rhllor is the Red Comet] and Rhyallu  means "supreme power" in Welsh.  The Red Sword of Heroes is the Red Comet

rheiol means "shooting, gleaming, darting" and rhelyw [Rhaloo] means "trailing, trail, flag"  which are all suggestive of comets and their tails

 

 

mormor  / marmar  means "white marble"

mormont means "wormwood"

mormaor  means "high steward"

Mormont is a metaphor for a weirwood tree, and his Torch becomes the Red Comet.  Weirwoods have red hands, they are they fiery hands of Rhllor.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Fun Guy from Yuggoth

[Lost Melnibonean]

From The Ned about Needle...

Quote

This is no toy for children...

Also from The Ned about Needle...

Quote

I ought to snap this toy across my knee...

 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

From The Ned about Needle...

Also from The Ned about Needle...

 

Proof that Ned was replaced by an imposter part way through the book. Therefore the original Ned is still alive somewhere.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Proof that Ned was replaced by an imposter part way through the book. Therefore the original Ned is still alive somewhere.

The quotes were from the same chapter, scene, and dialogue. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The quotes were from the same chapter, scene, and dialogue. 

And? The switch was flawless. Anti-Ned fitted right in.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Doreah led her to the hollow hill that had been prepared for her and her khal.

Graves are sometimes referred to as hollow hills. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Graves are sometimes referred to as hollow hills. 

Did someone say hollow hill?   

Hey @Lost Melnibonean, hope you're well.

Indeed, hollow hills, caves or the underworld in general have been used as graves by humans since before recorded histories. As I'm sure you know. In fact, the symbolism behind it suggests death & rebirth. (I expect Jon to be in a hollow of some sort, the fandoms expectation of it being one of the ice cells makes perfect sense)

Caves are known as the 'Womb of the World', again suggesting cave burials were carried out with the expectation of the deceased being reborn into another life. Replicating the wonder of child birth by burying their dead in a womb ready for rebirth. Barrows are the same, designed to replicate the female reproductive system. The words womb and tomb are also linked etymologically. The Greek tumbos & Latin tumulus are cognates of the word tumere [to swell/be pregnant] The word tumulus also means mound of earth & stone raised over a grave. Tumuli or tummy as barrows/burial mounds. (Watch for those Winterfell Crypts )

Anyway, some really cool possibilities when you look into greenseers being reborn into another life after entering their caves & having sacrificed themselves to the tree. Bran re-emerging from Bloodraven's hollow hill to be reborn as greenseer King. All pretty sweet.

And as for the passage you quoted, I love that we have the 'Womb of the World', as well as one of the biggest hollow hills of them all in the 'Mother of Mountains' and Dani herself in a hollow hill below said mountain.

All while being pregnant herself. 

She's also a dragon (or serpent) which reminds me of Bloodraven in his hollow hill. Which in turn conjures thoughts of Jormungandr at the base of Yggdrasil. Very strong old gods magic vibes around Dani here.

Another famous death - rebirth burial ritual is that of the Pharaohs of Eygpt. Buried with a treasure trove of paraphernalia ready to enter the next life. It was their version of the cave or hollow hill. So I expect to see Dani symbolically reborn when she returns from the Dothraki Sea (whichever passage she may take, via Vaes Dothrak for example) The symbolism makes sense to me, Dani having left the pyramid and considered dead, only to hole up in a cave with Drogon etc. 

Right, waffling now, I'll stop. 

Good to see you by the way. 

[LynnS]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:40 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

(Watch for those Winterfell Crypts )

 

Another possibility is that Jon could be placed in the crypts at Castle Black:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"It is those duties I would speak of." She made her way down, the hem of her scarlet skirts swishing over the steps. It almost seemed as if she floated. "Where is your direwolf?"

"Asleep in my chambers. Her Grace does not allow Ghost in her presence. She claims he scares the princess. And so long as Borroq and his boar are about, I dare not let him loose." The skinchanger was to accompany Soren Shieldbreaker to Stonedoor once the wayns carrying the Sealskinner's clan to Greenguard returned. Until such time, Borroq had taken up residence in one of the ancient tombs beside the castle lichyard. The company of men long dead seemed to suit him better than that of the living, and his boar seemed happy rooting amongst the graves, well away from other animals. "That thing is the size of a bull, with tusks as long as swords. Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting."

 

 

[sweetsunray]

Two weeks ago I was rereading some for timeline reasons, and finally realized the answer to the mistery why the Gold Cloaks never returned to arrest Gendry, after Yoren sent them packing at the inn. By the time those Gold Cloaks returned to King's Landing, Tyrion had already sent Slynt on a ship for the Wall, Slynt and several of the men that were like him and had participated in the murder of baby Barra and her mother. So, those GC's that had been sent with an arrest warrant for Gendry returned to Jacelyn Bywater as commander, instead of Slynt. And so the warrant and arrest efforts got tossed out from their end.

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:39 PM, LynnS said:

Another possibility is that Jon could be placed in the crypts at Castle Black:

Hi @LynnS hope you're well. 

Yes, that's a good idea, any kind of hollow, cave etc would do the trick. I personally like the foreshadowing that others have picked up on about the possibility of the ice cell, but Castle Black's crypts are an interesting alternative. 

Bran's vision of his brother and the Daenerys vision of the blue flower within a chink in the Wall are strong pieces of foreshadowing I think. 

Quote

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. (Bran III, AGOT)

And Dani's vision.

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .  (Dani IV , ACOK)

Then Jon seeing himself in the ice cell.

Quote

It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through. A faint fecal odor greeted him, though less overpowering than he'd expected. Even shit froze solid in such bitter cold. Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls. (Jon X, ADWD)

But I do like the idea that a skinchanger being in the crypts at the Wall already may point towards that as a potential destination for Jon resurrection. 

Cheers LynnS, nice to see you. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Wizz-The-Smith
Bold