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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19


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Night's Watch brothers probably aren't crows just because of their black clothing. Which house is most associated with the "Crows", the Night's Watch? Starks, who are also associated with wolves. So Starks are crows, as well as wolves. Guess who keeps a couple of crows and wolves by his side and is also associated with Val(kyries)? Starks are a godly house it seems and Jon specifically is godlike.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Night's Watch brothers probably aren't crows just because of their black clothing. Which house is most associated with the "Crows", the Night's Watch? Starks, who are also associated with wolves. So Starks are crows, as well as wolves. Guess who keeps a couple of crows and wolves by his side and is also associated with Val(kyries)? Starks are a godly house it seems and Jon specifically is godlike.

He is the most special of snowflakes, but godlike? 

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On 6/24/2023 at 1:00 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

He is the most special of snowflakes, but godlike? 

Well, there are some "gods" that resurrect from being dead and most people think Jon will do just that so... he is godlike! :D

 

17 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You mean as in "he is tied to wolves and crows so he is Odin"-style godlike? Why not Benjen then? He may be impaled on a weirwood tree learning the truths of Planetos for all we know.

Starks in general, but Jon specifically. Did Benjen have a Val? :P

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On 6/22/2023 at 7:24 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Night's Watch brothers probably aren't crows just because of their black clothing. Which house is most associated with the "Crows", the Night's Watch? Starks, who are also associated with wolves. So Starks are crows, as well as wolves. Guess who keeps a couple of crows and wolves by his side and is also associated with Val(kyries)? Starks are a godly house it seems and Jon specifically is godlike.

Here is some really esoteric Norse mythology: Odin is the sun god, his one eye is the sun, his spear is a sunspear, and he is depicted with sunbeams streaming from behind him.  Odin's two wolves that are always by his side are the sun dogs that are sometimes seen to accompany the sun on snowy mornings--the Norse dictionary calls them "mock suns" and they are called sun wolves, not sun dogs--these mock suns are always chasing and persecuting the sun (usually Hati in front, Skoll behind--but they are all conflated with Fenrir). 

One of Odin's names is the Wolf's Foe.  When the sun wolves are seen the sun is said "to be in wolf stress" or "wolf-straights".  And the sun is called "the prey of the wolf" and the word "wolf" in Norse also means "destroyer".  The wolves are not his pets, they are his enemies.

And at Ragnarok these flying wolves finally catch the sun and swallow it--which is an eclipse. 

That is the myth of Fenrir catching and eating Odin at Ragnarok, a flying winged wolf swallowing the sun.   The gods die, and the world ends, but is then reborn when Odin is reborn as his son (the sun's son) Vidarr, who rips open Fenrir's jaws--it is a metaphor for the end of an eclipse, the sun is reborn when Vidarr pries open the jaws of the grey wolf that ate the sun.  vidr means "to widen" --Vidarr widened  Fenrir's jaws.  (And Vidarr using a giant shoe to open Fenrir's jaws might be a wordplay on sol / sole.)

 

Ravens are Odin's animals, but crows are Loki's.  I think the ravens bringing Odin knowledge is interpreting ravens flying in front of the sun.  And "drinking from the Well of Mimir" is the sun setting in the ocean.  

And Loki is the trickster god, and Fenrir is his son.  Bran means "trickster" in Gaelic, and Bran is the winged wolf.  Loki is a shape-shifter, and so is Bran and Jon, the two wolves one either side of Bloodraven that will eat him to start the Long Night.

 

 

Lovecraft loved the idea of mock suns, he used it all the time, and I just noticed that the mock suns are also called gygjar-sol,  or gyll,  gygr means "ogress, witch" and also "abyss" and Lovecraft was obsessed with an abyss/shadow swallowing the sun, and gill-people from an abyss.  (gill ~ gyll)  The Shadow over Innsmouth.  And the fish-frog creatures hop, in Welsh the word toad  means "to cover, to shadow"

Edited by Fun Guy from Yuggoth
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1 hour ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

(And Vidarr using a giant shoe to open Fenrir's jaws might be a wordplay on sol / sole.)

How would that work though since the myth is Norse, sole is English and sol is Latin? It would be impossible for the creators of the Norse myth to come up with this wordplay, since English as we know it wasn't around yet.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

How would that work though since the myth is Norse, sole is English and sol is Latin? It would be impossible for the creators of the Norse myth to come up with this wordplay, since English as we know it wasn't around yet.

Google is your friend.

From late Old Norse sóli, from Latin solea via Old English sōle or Middle Low German sōle. PronunciationEdit · IPA: /ˈsouːlɪ/. Rhymes: -ouːlɪ ...
Sól (Old Norse: [ˈsoːl], "Sun") or Sunna (Old High German, and existing as an Old Norse and Icelandic synonym: see Wiktionary sunna, "Sun") is the Sun ...
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Just now, Seams said:

Google is your friend.

From late Old Norse sóli, from Latin solea via Old English sōle or Middle Low German sōle. PronunciationEdit · IPA: /ˈsouːlɪ/. Rhymes: -ouːlɪ ...
Sól (Old Norse: [ˈsoːl], "Sun") or Sunna (Old High German, and existing as an Old Norse and Icelandic synonym: see Wiktionary sunna, "Sun") is the Sun ...

I thought they were talking about 'sole' as in shoe sole, since the mouth of Fenrir was being opened with a shoe, but that sole is an English word so cannot have been intended by the Norse myth creators?

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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

How would that work though since the myth is Norse, sole is English and sol is Latin? It would be impossible for the creators of the Norse myth to come up with this wordplay, since English as we know it wasn't around yet.

In the Cleasby and Vigfusson's Old Norse dictionary sol  means "sun" and soli  means "shoe"

That is one of the dictionaries that George uses often, and that Lovecraft used also.

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10 minutes ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

In the Cleasby and Vigfusson's Old Norse dictionary sol  means "sun" and soli  means "shoe"

That is one of the dictionaries that George uses often, and that Lovecraft used also.

Okay, I thought when you said 'sole' you were talking about the sole of a shoe, which would be an English word and so not in the minds of the myth creators. Thank you for explaining.

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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought they were talking about 'sole' as in shoe sole, since the mouth of Fenrir was being opened with a shoe, but that sole is an English word so cannot have been intended by the Norse myth creators?

Yes. sole and sol. The two Norse words I found include one for the Norse word for "sole" (the link shows a picture of the sole of a shoe) and one for the Norse word relating to "sol" as in solar. Apparently the English words and the Norse words both work as puns. 

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On 6/22/2023 at 7:24 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Night's Watch brothers probably aren't crows just because of their black clothing. Which house is most associated with the "Crows", the Night's Watch? Starks, who are also associated with wolves. So Starks are crows, as well as wolves. Guess who keeps a couple of crows and wolves by his side and is also associated with Val(kyries)? Starks are a godly house it seems and Jon specifically is godlike.

 

I think Val's character is a Valkyrie, which means a "chooser of the slain"--as everyone Val is associated with dies soon thereafter.  And the fact that she chose Jon was foreshadowing of his death.  (Valr  means "the slain" and Val-halla is also spelled Walhalla, ~a hall at the Wall~, where the undead army wait for resurrection at Ragnarok)

And the whole idea of Val and the Night's Queen, comes from the Robert E Howard story the Frost Giant's Daughter also called The Gods of the North, in which Conan suffers a sword blow to the head from Heimdall and then a strange beautiful naked woman appears to him and lures him off into the snowy wastes of the north to be slain by her brothers, the Ice Giants, so they and their father Ymir can engage in a cannibal feast.

Her name is Atali, and she is Ymir's daughter.  She is the chooser of the slain, the Valkyrie, and she walks among the dying and gets them to follow her into the wasters to be slain by her brothers.  Her skin is as cold as ice, pale white skin, and she has honey blonde hair.  She chooses Conan, and Conan chases her far into the wastes where the Ice Giants ambush him, but Conan kills them, and he continues to chase her, and catches her but before he can rape her she calls upon Ymir to save her, which he does, and Conan awakes from death.

Jon has already had a romance with a woman whose name means "ice/snow/frozen" Ygritte (oigreata / oigrid in Gaelic) and Val is very similar to the Frost Giant's Daughter. 

 

This story is partly inspired by the Greek myth of the goddess Atalanta who refused to marry unless her suitor could beat her in a foot race, and if not he would be killed.

 

Atali is a Valkyrie, and an alternate spelling of Val  is Velja which means "to choose, to select, to pick out" in Norse and on the same page in the Norse dictionary vel / vael / vela / vaela which means "to trick, to defraud, artifice"

aaetla  means "a plan, a plot" in Icelandic

atala / atelja means "rebuke, reproach"

at  means "eat" and "fight, bait of wild animals"  

ata means "carcasse of a beast, eating" and "to sully, to defile"

ata auri  means "to talk abusively"

Atali chooses among the dying men and tricks them into following her into the wastes to be ambushed, killed, and eaten, and she baits Conan and talks abusively to him, and rebukes him.

 

 

Many of the Norse gods are personifications of the natural world and the Valkyries are the Northern Lights, and the shimmering is the light hitting their armor.  velkja / valka  means "to waver, to toss about" and that is what the Northern Lights do, so I think this is another case of Norse myth being founded on similar-sounding words.  The Northern Lights waver, and the word for "waver" sounds like the word "to choose the slain" and so a myth about the two is made.

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Since we are talking about Norse mythology

Thor is the storm god, his name means "thunder", he is a personification of a storm cloud, his magic hammer that returns to him is describing how lightning strikes appear to hit the ground and return back into the sky, and his war against the Frost Giants is describing lightning striking snow-capped mountains (as the Frost Giants are a metaphor for Glaciers)

I figured out something about Thor that I have never found any mention of elsewhere.  Thor has a magical belt (megin-gjord "girdle of power") that doubles his power, that is describing a cumulonimbus storm cloud that is wider at the top and bottom and has a waist in the middle, like a storm cloud wearing a belt.  And he puts on iron gloves to handle Mjolnir, is probably describing dark clouds forecasting lightning.  The black goats drawing his clattering, sparking chariot across the sky are describing an approaching storm. 

The Norse dictionary gives two possible etymologies for Mjolnir, it eithers comes from the word "to mill, to grind" (mola) or "dark storm clouds" (molnas)  but also mjoll  means "snow"

Thor's wife is Sif, sif means "marriage, affinity" and Sif's golden hair is the ripened wheat in fields.  The rain god and the agriculture god go hand in hand, as one would expect.

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8 hours ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

And the whole idea of Val and the Night's Queen, comes from the Robert E Howard story the Frost Giant's Daughter also called The Gods of the North, in which Conan suffers a sword blow to the head from Heimdall and then a strange beautiful naked woman appears to him and lures him off into the snowy wastes of the north to be slain by her brothers, the Ice Giants, so they and their father Ymir can engage in a cannibal feast.

This is all very helpful. I'm thinking of Patrek of King's Mountain more than Jon, though. Although maybe the point is to see them as parallels - Jon doesn't act on his attraction to Val, but Ser Patrek decides to try the "stealing" strategy for winning the heart of a wildling woman. 

I assume that any follower of Selyse is part of the earth fertility symbolism attached to Garth Greenhand and his descendants and heirs, including House Florent which sees itself as the rightful heirs of Highgarden. So Patrek's death by Frost Giant is probably part of the "end of summer" symbolism but also a necessary part of the cycle that each candidate for king undergoes in the quest for the throne. Patrek may be a symbolic part of the quest of Stannis, or may be part of Jon Snow's efforts on behalf of House Stark or Targaryen. 

I know that everyone has settled on the cloth of silver and blue star of Ser Patrek's sigil as a reference to the Dallas Cowboys. (How interesting that Val's sister was named Dalla.) I think it may also allude to the colors adopted by Ser Hugh of the Vale - Ope! There may be a Val allusion! - the young squire-turned-knight who died in the Hand's Tourney. Certain symbolic characters have to die in specific ways in order to fulfill the requirements of the fertility cycle. 

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10 hours ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

 

I think Val's character is a Valkyrie, which means a "chooser of the slain"--as everyone Val is associated with dies soon thereafter.  And the fact that she chose Jon was foreshadowing of his death.  (Valr  means "the slain" and Val-halla is also spelled Walhalla, ~a hall at the Wall~, where the undead army wait for resurrection at Ragnarok)

And the whole idea of Val and the Night's Queen, comes from the Robert E Howard story the Frost Giant's Daughter also called The Gods of the North, in which Conan suffers a sword blow to the head from Heimdall and then a strange beautiful naked woman appears to him and lures him off into the snowy wastes of the north to be slain by her brothers, the Ice Giants, so they and their father Ymir can engage in a cannibal feast.

Her name is Atali, and she is Ymir's daughter.  She is the chooser of the slain, the Valkyrie, and she walks among the dying and gets them to follow her into the wasters to be slain by her brothers.  Her skin is as cold as ice, pale white skin, and she has honey blonde hair.  She chooses Conan, and Conan chases her far into the wastes where the Ice Giants ambush him, but Conan kills them, and he continues to chase her, and catches her but before he can rape her she calls upon Ymir to save her, which he does, and Conan awakes from death.

Jon has already had a romance with a woman whose name means "ice/snow/frozen" Ygritte (oigreata / oigrid in Gaelic) and Val is very similar to the Frost Giant's Daughter. 

 

This story is partly inspired by the Greek myth of the goddess Atalanta who refused to marry unless her suitor could beat her in a foot race, and if not he would be killed.

 

Atali is a Valkyrie, and an alternate spelling of Val  is Velja which means "to choose, to select, to pick out" in Norse and on the same page in the Norse dictionary vel / vael / vela / vaela which means "to trick, to defraud, artifice"

aaetla  means "a plan, a plot" in Icelandic

atala / atelja means "rebuke, reproach"

at  means "eat" and "fight, bait of wild animals"  

ata means "carcasse of a beast, eating" and "to sully, to defile"

ata auri  means "to talk abusively"

Atali chooses among the dying men and tricks them into following her into the wastes to be ambushed, killed, and eaten, and she baits Conan and talks abusively to him, and rebukes him.

 

 

Many of the Norse gods are personifications of the natural world and the Valkyries are the Northern Lights, and the shimmering is the light hitting their armor.  velkja / valka  means "to waver, to toss about" and that is what the Northern Lights do, so I think this is another case of Norse myth being founded on similar-sounding words.  The Northern Lights waver, and the word for "waver" sounds like the word "to choose the slain" and so a myth about the two is made.

 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I’ll dig up a post on that, writing not to remind me later.

 

Here you go

 

 

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21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Here you go

Quote

Oh and Val leads Tormund and his followers to the Wall so in a sense she has led the ones that later came back for Jon's ranging to... shieldhall. Shield hall is the place where knightly brothers leave their shields to be hung when they say their oaths but their shields are taken down when they die. So, the Shieldhall of NW is not a hall of the fallen warriors, but one for the living ones.

The castles along the Wall are George's version of Valhalla (Wall halla), which was roofed with shields, Valhalla was a Shieldhall.  Valkyries led slain warriors to Shieldhall.  

In the real world the phrase "go to the wall" means "to fail, to die" and in ASoIaF, "beyond the Wall" is the afterlife, where there is a Haunted Forest filled with undead.  And the Night's Watch keep the dead on their side of the Wall. 

The Wall is prismatic, and the Rainbow bridge leds to Asgard, and it is guarded by Heimdall, the Watchman.  Sjon  means "vision" in Norse.

In Celtic Myths and Legends, on pg 131 they say that there is an impassible wall in England, beyond which the souls of the dead reside.

And in Norse myth the undead army waits and trains at Valhalla, watching for the arrival of the wolf Fenrir, which will signal the time of Ragnarok.  Which I just realized, Twilight of the Gods  is a good description of the Long Night.  And the Nights Watch watches for the fall of the Long Night, when they will be activated.  The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch has a raven, like Odin.  Odin leads an undead army.  And other one-eyed Odin characters are undead themselves, Beric and Bloodraven.  The 13th LC worked with the Others, not against them, which is foreshadowing, and crows are tricksy birds.

 

In Roman mythology Janus is the god of doorways.  Jon kills Janos, and he opens the door through the Wall, and lets the dead through.  (and it was Jon's fault they brought the wights Jafer and Othor through the Wall, gafr and otho both mean "goat" --black goat references, and in the Robert E Howard story Usurp the Night, John Stark summons the Black Goat)  (And in Welsh myth, the god of the underworld has white hellhounds)

 

In Gaelic, alla  means "hall" and "god"   and  all  means "cliff, rock" and "wild, the other side, beyond, strange, alien" 

The Wall is a cliff, along which are halls, and on the other side are wildlings.

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2 hours ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

The castles along the Wall are George's version of Valhalla (Wall halla), which was roofed with shields, Valhalla was a Shieldhall. 

...

in Norse myth the undead army waits and trains at Valhalla, watching for the arrival of the wolf Fenrir, which will signal the time of Ragnarok.  Which I just realized, Twilight of the Gods  is a good description of the Long Night.  And the Nights Watch watches for the fall of the Long Night, when they will be activated.  The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch has a raven, like Odin.  Odin leads an undead army.  And other one-eyed Odin characters are undead themselves, Beric and Bloodraven. 

Really excellent insights. Thank you. 

I think we need a thread about the castles along the Wall and Jon Snow's efforts to repopulate them. 

I've long suspected that the Shadow Tower is a residence for dead Night's Watch brothers. (Perhaps explaining why Qhorin Halfhand didn't mind dying to advance Jon Snow's secret mission.) But it might make sense that all of the castles perform that function, or a version of it. 

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