Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

they are honorable! 

They may indeed. Who knows perhaps the Long Night ended not through battle but diplomacy, but a dark one at that: People living beyond the Wall is rather curious, who’s to say if the LH didn’t strike a Craster like deal and those people were sacrificed?

[EggBlue]

58 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They may indeed. Who knows perhaps the Long Night ended not through battle but diplomacy, but a dark one at that: People living beyond the Wall is rather curious, who’s to say if the LH didn’t strike a Craster like deal and those people were sacrificed?

I once saw a theory on youtube that said the Others behavior in the prologue was as if they were testing Waymar. then , it went on to say that maybe prince that was promised was a prince promised to the Others or that there is a prince promised to them other than AA (I think it was LML's). I should re-read the chapter... 

Edited February 12, 2022 by EggBlue

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I once saw a theory on youtube that said the Others behavior in the prologue was as if they were testing Waymar. then , it went on to say that maybe prince that was promised was a prince promised to the Others or that there is a prince promised to them other than AA. I should re-read the chapter... 

One theory says that they were expecting Jon Snow, and attacked Waymar because he roughly looks like him.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[The Bard of Banefort]

Here’s something I only just noticed: Terrence Toyne (the kingsguard who slept with Aegon IV’s mistress) is mentioned a lot in the main series. I don’t know if it’s supposed to be foreshadowing for Cersei and Arianne’s affairs or if it’s just a story that GRRM likes, but it’s brought up by many different POVs (Cersei, Jaime, Arys, Sansa).

[Corvo the Crow]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s something I only just noticed: Terrence Toyne (the kingsguard who slept with Aegon IV’s mistress) is mentioned a lot in the main series. I don’t know if it’s supposed to be foreshadowing for Cersei and Arianne’s affairs or if it’s just a story that GRRM likes, but it’s brought up by many different POVs (Cersei, Jaime, Arys, Sansa).

Toynes could be related to Baratheons, through being a cadet of Durrandons.

Black Hart-> Black Heart Just like Winter’s Son -> Winter’s Sun

Medieval people loved puns on their heraldry.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I once saw a theory on youtube that said the Others behavior in the prologue was as if they were testing Waymar. then , it went on to say that maybe prince that was promised was a prince promised to the Others or that there is a prince promised to them other than AA (I think it was LML's). I should re-read the chapter... 

I thought so as well, but the test must have included more than a test of arms since the didn’t attack on sight.

 

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One theory says that they were expecting Jon Snow, and attacked Waymar because he roughly looks like him.

Jon or perhaps a Stark in general as the description is mostly shared with Benjen as well(along with Alys, Lyanna, Arya)

[Adam Targaryen]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:22 PM, Seams said:

I think there may be anagram wordplay in the name Cregan Stark involving the word "stranger".

He might be the embodiment of a Winter King - a northern version of the "Stranger" - unleashed on Westeros during the Dance. 

It's an anagram of "Ranger stack" or something similar, as well, if I'm not mistaken. Or maybe "Ranger cast"?

"Ranger" and "Stranger"... And something like that... Hmm...

[The Bard of Banefort]

Sansa's nightmare in ACOK:

Quote

That night Sansa dreamed of the riot again. The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks. She wept and told them she had never done them hurt, yet they dragged her from her horse all the same. "No," she cried, "no, please, don't, don't," but no one paid her any heed. She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard. Women swarmed over her like weasels, pinching her legs and kicking her in the belly, and someone hit her in the face and she felt her teeth shatter. Then she saw the bright glimmer of steel. The knife plunged into her belly and tore and tore and tore, until there was nothing left of her down there but shiny wet ribbons.

Bran and Rickon are still little boys, too young to save anyone. The brothers (plural) that Sansa is calling for in her dream are Robb and Jon 

[Daeron the Daring]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:52 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Others don't attack Ser Waymar until he challenges them. They could've easily charged him with their higher number and superior weapons or even taken him unawares but they make their presence known and only attack after Waymar challenges them.

When does it count as an attack? 

What was the purpose of the Others approaching the rangers? 

What happened to the wildlings? 

Why did the Other wield his weapon the whole time? Does he carry it in his hands all the time? 

Why did Will survive? 

Do they understand westerosi? If they don't, what made them think Waymar is aggressive? What did he do that they didn't do first? 

If anything, the Others in the first prolouge were extremely agressive. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Daeron the Daring

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When does it count as an attack? 

What was the purpose of the Others approaching the rangers? 

What happened to the wildlings? 

Why did the Other wield his weapon the whole time? Does he carry it in his hands all the time? 

Why did Will survive? 

Do they understand westerosi? If they don't, what made them think Waymar is aggressive? What did he do that they didn't do first? 

If anything, the Others in the first prolouge were extremely agressive. 

I don't know, maybe when you indeed attack?

Parley? Showing themselves to make it known that they are real and they are back? Thinking it was the "Prince That Was Promised" and offered their sword to him in service? For all we know others can have their own legends, and may very well have a legend about a human saviour who will come wearing all black and help others take revenge of the crimes that were comitted against them.

Others got them, most likely but we are talking whether if the Others were hostile towards Waymar or not, not if they were hostile towards wildlings.

We're never told about his scabbard so he may indeed be carrying it around all the time.

Ehm.. because he was hidden in the trees? The question should be why did Gared survive, they didn't go after him, they didn't looking around if there were other rangers.

They don't need to. If you bring two people with no knowledge of eachothers language and make one speak agresively to the other, would the other one not get it from his toning, body language etc? Even with animals you can sense their agressiveness or they may sense the agressivenes of another kind of animal.

If anything, Others weren't as agressive as to attack on sight, without even giving the rangers a chance to know that they are present. They observed the rangers without them knowing, then made their presence known but still didn't attack and only after Waymar's agressive behaviour did they attack. For all we know this was a diplomatic delegation, here to discuss the terms to keep the peace that has existed for 8000 or whatever years, as it was agreed upon and thought the rangers to be the delegation that NW promised to send after 8000 years to renew the treaty.

 

Maybe it all started with the NK stealing away the Other girl, in Elenei and Duran fashion and there was a peace afterwards, what do we know?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When does it count as an attack? 

What was the purpose of the Others approaching the rangers? 

What happened to the wildlings? 

Why did the Other wield his weapon the whole time? Does he carry it in his hands all the time? 

Why did Will survive? 

Do they understand westerosi? If they don't, what made them think Waymar is aggressive? What did he do that they didn't do first? 

If anything, the Others in the first prolouge were extremely agressive. 

I don't know, maybe when you indeed attack?

Parley? Showing themselves to make it known that they are real and they are back? Thinking it was the "Prince That Was Promised" and offered their sword to him in service? For all we know others can have their own legends, and may very well have a legend about a human saviour who will come wearing all black and help others take revenge of the crimes that were comitted against them.

Others got them, most likely but we are talking whether if the Others were hostile towards Waymar or not, not if they were hostile towards wildlings.

We're never told about his scabbard so he may indeed be carrying it around all the time.

Ehm.. because he was hidden in the trees? The question should be why did Gared survive, they didn't go after him, they didn't looking around if there were other rangers.

They don't need to. If you bring two people with no knowledge of eachothers language and make one speak agresively to the other, would the other one not get it from his toning, body language etc? Even with animals you can sense their agressiveness or they may sense the agressivenes of another kind of animal. Also remember that Waymar raises his sword above his head. 

Quote

 

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

 

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

 

If anything, Others weren't as agressive as to attack on sight, without even giving the rangers a chance to know that they are present. They observed the rangers without them knowing, then made their presence known but still didn't attack and only after Waymar's agressive behaviour did they attack. For all we know this was a diplomatic delegation, here to discuss the terms to keep the peace that has existed for 8000 or whatever years, as it was agreed upon and thought the rangers to be the delegation that NW promised to send after 8000 years to renew the treaty.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Daeron the Daring]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't know, maybe when you indeed attack?

Parley? Showing themselves to make it known that they are real and they are back? Thinking it was the "Prince That Was Promised" and offered their sword to him in service? For all we know others can have their own legends, and may very well have a legend about a human saviour who will come wearing all black and help others take revenge of the crimes that were comitted against them.

Others got them, most likely but we are talking whether if the Others were hostile towards Waymar or not, not if they were hostile towards wildlings.

We're never told about his scabbard so he may indeed be carrying it around all the time.

Ehm.. because he was hidden in the trees? The question should be why did Gared survive, they didn't go after him, they didn't looking around if there were other rangers.

They don't need to. If you bring two people with no knowledge of eachothers language and make one speak agresively to the other, would the other one not get it from his toning, body language etc? Even with animals you can sense their agressiveness or they may sense the agressivenes of another kind of animal. Also remember that Waymar raises his sword above his head. 

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

 

If anything, Others weren't as agressive as to attack on sight, without even giving the rangers a chance to know that they are present. They observed the rangers without them knowing, then made their presence known but still didn't attack and only after Waymar's agressive behaviour did they attack. For all we know this was a diplomatic delegation, here to discuss the terms to keep the peace that has existed for 8000 or whatever years, as it was agreed upon and thought the rangers to be the delegation that NW promised to send after 8000 years to renew the treaty.

 

 

 

First of all, I am a devoted believer that the Others aren't some supernatural monsters with a complete lack of emotional intelligence.

Other than that, let's talk about archetypes a bit. These are things that, despite not being connected in any form, are appearing in a similar form. At multiple places, separated. Many human archetypes can be observed in the religion. It's what evolution gives us, the same basis of thinking, that you learn in your lifetime, as a conscious being. In a way, general logic is an archetype. If once you cut yourself, that hurts. You don't like being hurt, so you try your best to evade cutting yourself, because it hurts being hurt. I don't think I can mention you a vertebrate that isn't capable of this level of thinking. Now, the Others seem very humanoid to me, at the very least intelectually just as capable as humans, so when an Other walks up to me with a thing that he/she uses as a weapon, I don't think for a second it has anything not violent in his mind regarding that weapon. If an Other doesn't understand this much, then it can't be put on the level of a fish, and neither of us thinks this of them. If you go out to your garden with a spoon, I will think you maybe want to eat your food there, I won't think for a second you want to dig up the ground with it. 

We know it's not the first interaction between humans and Others in the last 8000 years, they simply can't misunderstand each other this much. The Others had clear intentions. Kill the rangers (just as they did it before and after that as well), or at the very least kill all of them except for Gared (Sorry for using the wrong name last time). They wanted to scare them, horrify them, hell, they even laughed after they murdered Ser Waymar. Very developed emotional intelligence, if you ask me. That laugh alone gives you a guarantee that they aren't dumb ice or meatbags walking, but something soooooo much more. In no way they had good intentions, but that isn't necesarilly bad. Maybe White Walker folklore portrays a bad image of humans. Humans aren't any different, or have read in the books about a person who has positive opinion about the Others and their dead servants? Craster would be the closest candidate, but neither does he live with them, and he's a madman.

As of why the weapon was carried in his hands: If he had no intentions of using it, he should've put it down on the ground. As I said, in no way they were so intelectually separate that putting down a weapon would've meant anything different. That is if he had no sheath for it, but it wouldn't make sense not to.Even if they don't ever get tired, it's super impractical. 

And as of why Gared survived: These Others seemed to laugh at Ser Waymar even trying to defend himself against them, which makes me think they are far superior than ordinary humans, and they are aware of it. They're super swift, they likely have far better receptor organs. That they entirely vanished, without a trace by the time Gared opened his eyes suggest me that they intended him to survive, and this whole situation was staged (from their part) to show themselves, or anything else they achieved with it while also leaving Gared alive.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

First of all, I am a devoted believer that the Others aren't some supernatural monsters with a complete lack of emotional intelligence.

Other than that, let's talk about archetypes a bit. These are things that, despite not being connected in any form, are appearing in a similar form. At multiple places, separated. Many human archetypes can be observed in the religion. It's what evolution gives us, the same basis of thinking, that you learn in your lifetime, as a conscious being. In a way, general logic is an archetype. If once you cut yourself, that hurts. You don't like being hurt, so you try your best to evade cutting yourself, because it hurts being hurt. I don't think I can mention you a vertebrate that isn't capable of this level of thinking. Now, the Others seem very humanoid to me, at the very least intelectually just as capable as humans, so when an Other walks up to me with a thing that he/she uses as a weapon, I don't think for a second it has anything not violent in his mind regarding that weapon. If an Other doesn't understand this much, then it can't be put on the level of a fish, and neither of us thinks this of them. If you go out to your garden with a spoon, I will think you maybe want to eat your food there, I won't think for a second you want to dig up the ground with it. 

We know it's not the first interaction between humans and Others in the last 8000 years, they simply can't misunderstand each other this much. The Others had clear intentions. Kill the rangers (just as they did it before and after that as well), or at the very least kill all of them except for Gared (Sorry for using the wrong name last time). They wanted to scare them, horrify them, hell, they even laughed after they murdered Ser Waymar. Very developed emotional intelligence, if you ask me. That laugh alone gives you a guarantee that they aren't dumb ice or meatbags walking, but something soooooo much more. In no way they had good intentions, but that isn't necesarilly bad. Maybe White Walker folklore portrays a bad image of humans. Humans aren't any different, or have read in the books about a person who has positive opinion about the Others and their dead servants? Craster would be the closest candidate, but neither does he live with them, and he's a madman.

As of why the weapon was carried in his hands: If he had no intentions of using it, he should've put it down on the ground. As I said, in no way they were so intelectually separate that putting down a weapon would've meant anything different. That is if he had no sheath for it, but it wouldn't make sense not to.Even if they don't ever get tired, it's super impractical. 

And as of why Gared survived: These Others seemed to laugh at Ser Waymar even trying to defend himself against them, which makes me think they are far superior than ordinary humans, and they are aware of it. They're super swift, they likely have far better receptor organs. That they entirely vanished, without a trace by the time Gared opened his eyes suggest me that they intended him to survive, and this whole situation was staged (from their part) to show themselves, or anything else they achieved with it while also leaving Gared alive.

Perhaps approaching someone who has drawn his sword with a drawn sword of your own is an Other thing?

Quote

 

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?

"Will, where are you?" Ser Waymar called up. "Can you see anything?" He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. "Answer me! Why is it so cold?"

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

Han shot first and Waymar drew first.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Perhaps approaching someone who has drawn his sword with a drawn sword of your own is an Other thing?

So if I'm walking up to you with a gun, will you leave yours on your belt as an authority?

 

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Han shot first and Waymar drew first.

Greedo didn't sit down pointing his gun at Han/ with a gun in his hand to the table. This is entirely pointless, given that u don't even adress the most part of this whole interaction between the rangers and the Others.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So if I'm walking up to you with a gun, will you leave yours on your belt as an authority?

 

Greedo didn't sit down pointing his gun at Han/ with a gun in his hand to the table. This is entirely pointless, given that u don't even adress the most part of this whole interaction between the rangers and the Others.

Waymar's sword was drawn before he even laid eyes on the Other. Other walked with his weapon drawn, yes, but he was walking towards a man who was brandishing a sword. So the authority you are talking about would be the Other and not Waymar.

Waymar caused a diplomatic incident.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 2/12/2022 at 3:52 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Others don't attack Ser Waymar until he challenges them. They could've easily charged him with their higher number and superior weapons or even taken him unawares but they make their presence known and only attack after Waymar challenges them.

The Other attacks Waymar only after he has a good look at the sword Waymar is using.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Other attacks Waymar only after he has a good look at the sword Waymar is using.

Possible.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:29 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Waymar's sword was drawn before he even laid eyes on the Other. Other walked with his weapon drawn, yes, but he was walking towards a man who was brandishing a sword. So the authority you are talking about would be the Other and not Waymar.

Waymar caused a diplomatic incident.

Sorry, not gonna argue with this.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

This takes place at Craster's Keep. Ghost is sniffing at Gilly who is terrified. And there's this exchange that follows.

"I'm no lord.

But others had come crowding round, drawn by the woman's scream and the crash of the rabbit hutch. "Don't you believe him, girl," called out Lark the Sisterman, a ranger mean as a cur. "That's Lord Snow himself."

"Bastard of Winterfell and brother to kingS," mocked Chett, who'd left his hounds to see what the commotion was about. 

I thought this was a fun exchange. Chett says that Jon is brother to kings. And it's mocking, but it's actually very meaningful, imo, because Jon is brother to more than one king. He is brother to kings.

I know most people take it as canon that Young Griff is a Blackfyre. But there's more stuff that indicates that he's exactly the opposite of that. Jon's half-brother was the king in the north. And if RLJ is confirmed, then the alleged Aegon is also Jon's half-brother, which would make Jon brother to kings. 

I think the truth of Jon's parentage will either be out or Jon will already know about it. So if Bran becomes king (which I have very serious doubts about), then he and Jon will be cousins by then, not half-brothers.

[Castellan]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:52 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Others don't attack Ser Waymar until he challenges them. They could've easily charged him with their higher number and superior weapons or even taken him unawares but they make their presence known and only attack after Waymar challenges them.

 

Here's a part of the scene:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

 

 

My take is the Other emerges to size him up. When Waymar raises and thus displays his sword the Other 'watches the moonlight running coldly along the metal" and  for a minute Will dares to hope because he sees the Other is considering his sword - he hopes with fear. But the Other, and his 'twins' see that this is not a flaming sword and proceed to kill him. They are not showing honour but the caution that an animal or a human would show before attacking a new foe. 

 

The prologue is a prologue to the whole series and shows the Others emerging and the failure of Waymar because he is not the last hero or Azor Ahai - his sword is made of plain cold steel. The Other's sword is made of some unearthly icy substance.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Castellan