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Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with Rhaegar & Lyanna?


Falcon2909
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7 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with her husband Rhaegar & his paramour Lyanna?

Elia comes from a culture where taking paramours is normal and not looked down upon.

No. That doesn't mean she wasn't. Altough it doesn't seem like he loved her, so at least she likely wasn't surprised. 

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unfortunately we know nothing about Elia. Rhaegar himself is somewhat of a weird mystery... I mean what kind of plan is that? abducting his mistress in plain site a few months after his son's birth?! it would have made sense if he seemed like a douche , yet he doesn't! but we know even less of Elia. there was the notion of " all smiles died at Harrenhal" but nothing of Elia in particular so if I had to guess I'd say she was pissed at least with the manner of how it all went down. the only way that Elia might not have been angry/upset with Rhaegar is that she was his confidant and they were in an open marriage or intended to be in one which is not on the contrary to how her brother's (Oberyan) relationship was portrayed.

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For all the strong opinions about Rhaegar, both among the characters in the books and the fans, we really don't know much about him and what happened. The context can be as important as the actual events. Hopefuly we'll get some of the gaps filled in someday.

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2 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Elia comes from a culture where taking paramours is normal and not looked down upon.

Bastards as paramours, not one most highborn ladies of the land.

But no, there's nothing on what she felt.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

or intended to be in one which is not on the contrary to how her brother's (Oberyan) relationship was portrayed.

And Doran??

Btw, Oberyn never married.

 

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The whole Rhaegar-Lyanna-Elia thing is a huge mystery which hasn't been fully explained, not even in the abomination. 

In all honesty, I'm beginning to worry that I'm going to hate the reveal when it's finally given, but that's because I don't like the idea of prophecy justifying Rhaegar's (and possibly Lyanna's) utter selfishness and casual disregard for anything beyond love or making a third dragon head.

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51 minutes ago, James Steller said:

In all honesty, I'm beginning to worry that I'm going to hate the reveal when it's finally given, but that's because I don't like the idea of prophecy justifying Rhaegar's (and possibly Lyanna's) utter selfishness and casual disregard for anything beyond love or making a third dragon head.

I won't mind that reveal if it's properly framed. Specifically that House Targaryen is the blight upon Westeros. Fire consumes, destroys, and House Targaryen proudly flaunts its association with fire's destruction. They destroy everything, including themselves. Even the supposed hero of fire is meant to kill the person whom he (or she) loves most in order to triumph. 

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If I was Elia I would be extremely worried about my husband showing an romantic interest in the stark girl, the northern bloc was extremely powerful. The Martells were not loved by anyone in the realm it would be extremely easy for rhaegar to replace Elia with lyanna and disinherit rhaenys and aegon. I would have had lyanna quietly killed by a knight of the vale or the storm lands.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Btw, Oberyn never married.

 

He still had a relationship with his paramour that birthed four kids. 

8 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If I was Elia I would be extremely worried about my husband showing an romantic interest in the stark girl, the northern bloc was extremely powerful. The Martells were not loved by anyone in the realm it would be extremely easy for rhaegar to replace Elia with lyanna and disinherit rhaenys and aegon. I would have had lyanna quietly killed by a knight of the vale or the storm lands.

It would have been very difficult to do so. The marriage was consummated and had already produced two children. One of said children was a boy so.....I do agree about having Lyanna quietly killed. If Elia was cold enough, she might have also ordered any whelp Lyanna birthed smothered in the cradle. 

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13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He still had a relationship with his paramour that birthed four kids. 

It would have been very difficult to do so. The marriage was consummated and had already produced two children. One of said children was a boy so.....I do agree about having Lyanna quietly killed. If Elia was cold enough, she might have also ordered any whelp Lyanna birthed smothered in the cradle. 

Well rhaegar could produce a couple of boys with lyanna and it may have been enough to set aside barren Elia for a fertile Lyanna. Khanna and her family could have had rhaenys and aegon killed.

if Elia were cruel she wouldn’t have let Lyanna even be alive to give birth to a child.Better Lyanna dies rather than her rhaenys and aegon.If rhaegar grew unruly Oberyn could always take care of that by practising with him in the yard

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5 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

if Elia were cruel she wouldn’t have let Lyanna even be alive to give birth to a child.Better Lyanna dies rather than her rhaenys and aegon.If rhaegar grew unruly Oberyn could always take care of that by practising with him in the yard

"Sorry, brother, I believe I nicked you!"

 

Few weeks later Rhaegar dies. Then Lyanna and her kids. The Duels of the Real Housewives of King's Landing. 

9 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well rhaegar could produce a couple of boys with lyanna and it may have been enough to set aside barren Elia for a fertile Lyanna. Khanna and her family could have had rhaenys and aegon killed.

 

Wouldn't put it past Rickard Stark, with his southern ambitions. 

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49 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He still had a relationship with his paramour that birthed four kids. 

Indeed, don't you think that one of the reasons he got to do that was the fact that he never actually married??

 

 

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Bastards as paramours, not one most highborn ladies of the land.

well if lords have relationship with noble bastards , crown prince could very well have a relationship with a noble lady.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Doran??

Btw, Oberyn never married.

of course people are different ( eg. Doran and Oberyan) and I'm not suggesting that it was actually how Elia-Rhaegar's marriage worked. I'm just saying that would be the only way that Elia might have been ok with the whole situation .

Oberyan wasn't married because the woman he loved  was a bastard but they were together for at least 15 years, yet they had other lovers. I guess it's not hard to imagine that Elia's view's regarding a relationship could be similar to her brother's. 

anyways , I personally partly agree with @Daenerysthegreat ,the safest option would definitely be having Lyanna killed though not due to fear of annulment but for any possible rebellion against Aegon in the future by his half siblings. still , even if Elia didn't see Lyanna as a match or that she thought Lyanna's not political enough to cause her any harm, she could always have Lyanna's sons killed and spare the daughters just to be safe:)

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Indeed, don't you think that one of the reasons he got to do that was the fact that he never actually married??

 

Yes. But even if he was married, he would still be within his "rights" to take paramour/s and father bastards. 

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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yes. But even if he was married, he would still be within his "rights" to take paramour/s and father bastards. 

His rights?? Yes, doing it as overtly as he did? I have more doubts about it.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

well if lords have relationship with noble bastards , crown prince could very well have a relationship with a noble lady.

Not with ladies of Lyanna's birth no, that line of thinking, the "royalty can do whatever they want", it's what got both father and son killed and destroyed their dynasty.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Oberyan wasn't married because the woman he loved  was a bastard but they were together for at least 15 years, yet they had other lovers. I guess it's not hard to imagine that Elia's view's regarding a relationship could be similar to her brother's

But Oberyn wasn't married... 

And I don't know how it's easy to imagine it, given that Elia and Oberyn were nothing alike.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with her husband Rhaegar & his paramour Lyanna?

Not even a hint.

We have "all the smiles died" (which I think is more due to shocked surprise than anything else, and I am certain is not literally true, merely Ned's feeling from those around him - indeed, I can imagine such as Symond Staunton grinning gleefully and rubbing his hands together at the sight!) but we have  not the slightest indication how Elia felt.

We also, notably, have no subsequent indication of any trouble, unhappiness or ill feeling between Rhaegar and Elia. At least, until he abducted Lyanna (and even then, no indication of Elia's thoughts or feelings).

7 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Elia comes from a culture where taking paramours is normal and not looked down upon.

I'm not sure this is the best argument, thought it is a point. 

The biggest problem I think is that readers project their own feelings onto Elia, based on what they perceive from an extremely limited set of facts. Few, it seems, bother to think that Elia might have known more than we do, in addition to coming from a culture that differs from ours.

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