Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with Rhaegar & Lyanna?

[frenin]

10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

"Rights" as in Westerosi customs. Like Catelyn said, it's common for men to have bastards. 

Indeed, a relationship like Oberyn had however is a tad more odd.

[Falcon2909]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

Not even a hint.

We have "all the smiles died" (which I think is more due to shocked surprise than anything else, and I am certain is not literally true, merely Ned's feeling from those around him - indeed, I can imagine such as Symond Staunton grinning gleefully and rubbing his hands together at the sight!) but we have  not the slightest indication how Elia felt.

We also, notably, have no subsequent indication of any trouble, unhappiness or ill feeling between Rhaegar and Elia. At least, until he abducted Lyanna (and even then, no indication of Elia's thoughts or feelings).

I'm not sure this is the best argument, thought it is a point. 

The biggest problem I think is that readers project their own feelings onto Elia, based on what they perceive from an extremely limited set of facts. Few, it seems, bother to think that Elia might have known more than we do, in addition to coming from a culture that differs from ours.

Most readers believe Elia was sad and mad at her prince husband. and Indeed, she might have been in on rhaegars fullfillment of TPTWP prophecy

[SeanF]

We have no certain information.  I can't imagine she was thrilled, however, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhall, in place of his wife.  That was pretty insulting towards Elia.

If Rhaegar married Lyanna bigamously, she might well have feared for the future of her two children.  Would they be disinherited, even put to death, in favour of any children Rhaegar had with Lyanna?

[Mister Smikes]

If this were real life, I would be surprised if she wasn't upset.  But since this is fantasy, it is perfectly plausible to me that she gave him the go-ahead to get it on with as many teenaged girls as necessary to save the world.

[The Bard of Banefort]

There’s a GRRM quote somewhere where he said Dorne was slow to support Rhaegar in the war because they were pissed about how he stiffed Elia, so no, she probably wasn’t cool with it.

Plus, think about all the free love communes that have ended with someone getting stabbed. Just because  people claim to be libertine doesn’t mean they’ll live up to it in practice.

[Mister Smikes]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s a GRRM quote somewhere where he said Dorne was slow to support Rhaegar in the war because they were pissed about how he stiffed Elia, so no, she probably wasn’t cool with it.

Yes, but I don't think the Dornish need Elia's permission to get hot under the collar.

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Plus, think about all the free love communes that have ended with someone getting stabbed. Just because  people claim to be libertine doesn’t mean they’ll live up to it in practice.

True.  In the real world, anyhow.

[Frey family reunion]

The thing that gives me pause, is Dany’s peek into Rhaegar and Elia’s bedroom in the House of the Undying.  Rhaegar seemed fairly free to talk about his prophecy with Elia and how their son fit into it.  

I suppose we really need to know more about the prophecy and what Rhaegar meant by the dragon has three heads.  I’m not convinced that he meant three children all sired by him.  For all we know, Rhaegar contemplated that his son would be the only one of the three heads that would come from him.

But if he meant all three had to be sired by him, and if it was known at the time that Elia couldn’t have any more kids, than it’s a tad odd that he’d be talking this freely with her unless she was completely invested in the prophecy as well.

So I guess, if Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna dealt with a fulfillment of the prophecy, Elia may have been onboard, with whatever that entailed.

[Buried Treasure]

Turn it on its head, what if Rhaegar acted even he did because he was upset with Elia's actions?

Healthy Ashara had a bastard boy and sickly Elia a stillborn girl. They switched to preserve Ashara's reputation and because Elia felt under pressure to give Rhaegar an heir. When Rhaegar learnt he was was two children short of his prophecy he sought out the girl that has  caught his eye at the tourney.

[EggBlue]

28 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

Turn it on its head, what if Rhaegar acted even he did because he was upset with Elia's actions?

Healthy Ashara had a bastard boy and sickly Elia a stillborn girl. They switched to preserve Ashara's reputation and because Elia felt under pressure to give Rhaegar an heir. When Rhaegar learnt he was was two children short of his prophecy he sought out the girl that has  caught his eye at the tourney.

being upset with his wife for giving birth to a stillborn makes Rhaegar an even bigger asshole than and asshole who casually cheats on his wife if you ask me! if one would like to go with Rhaegar being upset at Elia , she could be the one who cheated first!

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 10/12/2021 at 8:10 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with her husband Rhaegar & his paramour Lyanna?

Elia comes from a culture where taking paramours is normal and not looked down upon.

Rhaegar's display at Harrenhal was not taken lightly by the Martells.  If he was fooling around, and we don't know that he was, it will not be taken lightly by his wife.  Having liberal attitudes in Dorne does not remove the human traits of jealousy.  No woman enjoys humiliation. 

Do we have proof?  No.  But then you don't have any proof that Rhaegar was having an affair with Lyanna.  So there is that. 

[Lord Lannister]

Even if we never see Winds or Dream, I really would like a short story detailing what happened with the Rebellion and Tower of Joy.

[Jaenara Belarys]

33 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Even if we never see Winds or Dream, I really would like a short story detailing what happened with the Rebellion and Tower of Joy.

I want a FaB like book simply covering the reign of Baelor I. I have an odd obsession with the Maidenvault.

[Lord Lannister]

11 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I want a FaB like book simply covering the reign of Baelor I. I have an odd obsession with the Maidenvault.

I was always surprised Robert didn't use it for some of his more lecherous antics. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I was always surprised Robert didn't use it for some of his more lecherous antics. 

Never thought of it being used like that  . When you hear about all the women Robert bedded, I personally feel bad for Cersei (never thought I'd say that). 

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Never thought of it being used like that  . When you hear about all the women Robert bedded, I personally feel bad for Cersei (never thought I'd say that). 

Pretty sure Martin didn't come up with the idea of the Maidenvault until after Robert. Otherwise, yeah... Robert totally would've been having orgies in there. 

Cersei has a lot to be bitter about justifiably. To the point you can almost feel for her. That doesn't excuse her actions though by a longshot. 

[corbon]

12 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Never thought of it being used like that  . When you hear about all the women Robert bedded, I personally feel bad for Cersei (never thought I'd say that). 

If it makes you feel better you can recall that she cuckolded Robert on the very morning of their wedding. 

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

If it makes you feel better you can recall that she cuckolded Robert on the very morning of their wedding. 

Robert abused her... so I personally still feel sorry for Cersei...she is hateful and cruel but she is also too messed up by Robert and Tywin

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

If it makes you feel better you can recall that she cuckolded Robert on the very morning of their wedding. 

Her dear little brother Jaime. 

13 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Cersei has a lot to be bitter about justifiably. To the point you can almost feel for her. That doesn't excuse her actions though by a longshot. 

No, it doesn't. 

[Lord Lannister]

38 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Her dear little brother Jaime. 

Honestly, I feel for Jaime in a lot of ways. He's arguably one of the most noble, romantic and heroic characters in the series but for the "minor" detail he feel in love with the worst woman ever. Almost all of his negative actions stem from that in some way. I gave a literal shout of "Yes!" when he burned Cersei's letter asking for help.

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Robert abused her... so I personally still feel sorry for Cersei...she is hateful and cruel but she is also too messed up by Robert and Tywin

She abused him too.  She wanted him drunk when they had sex, and ashamed when sober.  I'm not saying he did nothing to be ashamed of.  But basically, she was the one calling the shots in their relationship.  She bore him 3 children by another man, and managed to convince him that they were all his.  That's some level of control.

Babykiller Robert is obviously not a virtuous man.  But among his sins, sex with prostitutes (generally, victims of economic exploitation) is probably closer to rape than what he is likely to have done to Cersei.  As sincerely and as deeply as she may have resented that she had to have sex with her husband sometimes, had she done otherwise, all her lies would have been exposed.  And she wanted him to be her husband, because she wanted the power that went with it.