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Do we have any proof that Elia was upset with Rhaegar & Lyanna?


Falcon2909

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5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

She abused him too.  She wanted him drunk when they had sex, and ashamed when sober.  I'm not saying he did nothing to be ashamed of.  But basically, she was the one calling the shots in their relationship.  She bore him 3 children by another man, and managed to convince him that they were all his.  That's some level of control.

just so. but you better say she abused him back. first of all it was him who hurt her first, both physically and emotionally. he was the strong one in social status and in marriage bed, thus he had the power. what choice did she have? she just used his personality and his weakness. I loathed Cersei and her chapters in the feast when I was recently rereading them. but something that caught my eye was that what a surprisingly big role Robert plays in Cersei's thoughts and actions. that is the way a victim of a long domestic abuse behaves I suppose. she certainly has done her share of unjustified things to him but when it comes to Robert, I think this is the worst right before having sex with a maiden prostitute and who knows how many assaults towards whores.

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

just so. but you better say she abused him back. first of all it was him who hurt her first, both physically and emotionally. he was the strong one in social status and in marriage bed, thus he had the power. what choice did she have? she just used his personality and his weakness. I loathed Cersei and her chapters in the feast when I was recently rereading them. but something that caught my eye was that what a surprisingly big role Robert plays in Cersei's thoughts and actions. that is the way a victim of a long domestic abuse behaves I suppose. she certainly has done her share of unjustified things to him but when it comes to Robert, I think this is the worst right before having sex with a maiden prostitute and who knows how many assaults towards whores.

I decline to pass judgment on Robert's soul based on the bitterness of Cersei's hatred of him.  It is in the nature of wicked people to hate, to nurse wrongs, and to never forgive anything.  Other than her subjective self pity and associated hatreds, Cersei does not seem much like a long-term victim of domestic abuse to me.  She does not seem to fear him at all, and, like I said, she is the one basically calling the shots.

How did he first hurt her emotionally?  Was it by revealing (by accident - it was not even intentional cruelty) that he still had feelings for a dead woman?  As if she had not married him for wealth and power; as if she did not have every intention of cheating on him, and as if she would not have preferred Rhaegar in any event.  

On a subjective level, she bitterly hates him because she has to have sex with him once in a blue moon.  But that, by itself, does not make him a rapist.  It makes him a victim of her scheme to fool him into thinking her children by another man are his own children and rightful heirs to the kingdom.

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14 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I decline to pass judgment on Robert's soul based on the bitterness of Cersei's hatred of him.  It is in the nature of wicked people to hate, to nurse wrongs, and to never forgive anything.  Other than her subjective self pity and associated hatreds, Cersei does not seem much like a long-term victim of domestic abuse to me.  She does not seem to fear him at all, and, like I said, she is the one basically calling the shots.

How did he first hurt her emotionally?  Was it by revealing (by accident - it was not even intentional cruelty) that he still had feelings for a dead woman?  As if she had not married him for wealth and power; as if she did not have every intention of cheating on him, and as if she would not have preferred Rhaegar in any event.  

some are her hatred and bitterness and some are facts. and not all the victims are the same. some become defensive , some become depressed and some become bitter. I didn't say Cersei was the only victim in that relationship but she definitely was one.

we cannot even consider the factors of wealth and power since it goes both ways. Robert married her for who her father was and she married him to be the queen. so what? it doesn't justify the fact that he didn't have the decency not to get that drunk on his wedding night ( which of course ended with him murmuring a dead woman's name) and the fact that he ,too, constantly cheated on her. I do feel sorry for Robert though. but it still doesn't change the fact that he hurt her during sex . honestly how different is that from Aerys forcing himself on Rhaella while she shouted "you're hurting me"? they both wanted to claim their kingly rights. and so what that she preferred Rhaegar? do you think she would have still preferred Rhaegar if Robert was a good husband? and Cersei wasn't as invested in Jaimie as he was so I guess she might have acted differently if Robert wasn't this sort of man.

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9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

She abused him too.  She wanted him drunk when they had sex, and ashamed when sober.  I'm not saying he did nothing to be ashamed of.  But basically, she was the one calling the shots in their relationship.  She bore him 3 children by another man, and managed to convince him that they were all his.  That's some level of control.

Babykiller Robert is obviously not a virtuous man.  But among his sins, sex with prostitutes (generally, victims of economic exploitation) is probably closer to rape than what he is likely to have done to Cersei.  As sincerely and as deeply as she may have resented that she had to have sex with her husband sometimes, had she done otherwise, all her lies would have been exposed.  And she wanted him to be her husband, because she wanted the power that went with it.

I think today, they would call it a toxic relationship.  

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