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Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers

Young Griff is the descendant of Brightflame, but is a pureblood Targaryen.

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This is basically tinfoil but speculative tinfoil with little to no evidence. 

Maegor Targaryen, the son of Aerion Targaryen, is a mysterious case. He seems to disappear after the coronation of Egg. This is because either Bloodraven or King Aegon V exiles Daenora and her son Maegor to Lys to prevent Maegor being used by his enemies to dethrone him. Daenora swears revenge on Egg and his descendants and is taken in by one of Aerion’s Lyseni mistresses who has a daughter by Aerion. The daughter is pure Valyrian and Maegor is betrothed to her. When Maegor grows up, he is a very sickly man but manages to father 3 children with his wife, Aenora Waters, Aerion’s bastard daughter. Those children continue to inbreed and eventually one of Maegor’s descendants meets Varys on the streets of Lys and takes him in as an orphan. Varys eventually leaves to become a mummer for a troupe but he always remembers the branch of House Targaryen in Lys. When Varys and Illyrio gain power in Pentos, the same descendant contacts Varys again and asks Varys and Illyrio for help with seating Aelor Targaryen, her  grandson on the Iron Throne. Varys and Illyrio agree and they betroth Illyrio’s daughter to Aelor and Varys is called to serve under Aerys II Targaryen. Varys works to destabilize the realm by planting seeds of civil war into the Seven Kingdoms and feelings of distrust between Rhaegar and Aerys so Aelor can take the throne. Unfortunately, Robert’s Rebellion happens and takes a complete shit on Varys and Illyrio’s plans. Aelor dies during the 15 years of Robert’s reign to illness or is assassinated by Quaithe who is probably SS, an agent of BR. Aelor’s son is named Aegon and is considered the next in line.  Varys continues to work toward another civil war to destabilize the 7K and is rewarded with the Wo5K which causes way more chaos than Varys’ could have predicted in part to Littlefinger.  Varys and Illyrio also get their hands on Daenerys Targaryen, who they plan to marry to Aegon Targaryen to unite the two bloodlines. Varys gives the baby Aegon to Jon Connington to foster and proclaims him Rhaegar’s son who in reality is dead.

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Oh, I love Brightflame and Blackfyre theories. if your looking for some other Targaryen offshoots in the Lys area, don't forget the blackfyres lived of after Maelys in the female line. we also have the line of Saera Targaryen, who worked at pillow houses in Lys and owned a house in Volantis. Illyrio did after all love his own wife Serra.

kind of a blunder for them to marry Dany to Drogo though in yer context of your theory. a fierce army and brother in law are a good enough I think. Faegon's life will be easier if he can make a marriage alliance with one of the great houses.

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1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Oh, I love Brightflame and Blackfyre theories. if your looking for some other Targaryen offshoots in the Lys area, don't forget the blackfyres lived of after Maelys in the female line. we also have the line of Saera Targaryen, who worked at pillow houses in Lys and owned a house in Volantis. Illyrio did after all love his own wife Serra.

kind of a blunder for them to marry Dany to Drogo though in yer context of your theory. a fierce army and brother in law are a good enough I think. Faegon's life will be easier if he can make a marriage alliance with one of the great houses.

@Targaryeninkingslanding does that mean you find my theory plausible?

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1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

your looking for some other Targaryen offshoots in the Lys area, don't forget the blackfyres lived of after Maelys in the female line. we also have the line of Saera Targaryen, who worked at pillow houses in Lys and owned a house in Volantis. Illyrio did after all love his own wife Serra.

Ah yes, I’d forgotten about Saera Targaryen. But I believe that they would have little to no Targaryen blood because they don’t inbreed. So they would look like common Lyseni folk. And the female Blackfyre line is truly mysterious. I do hope we get an actual trace of Blackfyre line throughout history in Fire and Blood 2.

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1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

@Targaryeninkingslanding does that mean you find my theory plausible?

Overall yes. some aspects are more arbitrarily chosen in that it could be correct, but so could a hundred other things and it would not change the basic argument of the theory.

Varys relationship with such a claimant could be as you said or it could be many other things, but I think touching on what Varys is doing in King's Landing during the Reign of Mad Aerys is very important. I agree that he was likely fermenting dissent and trying to create conditions that would lead to destabilization and ultimately rebellion. I even wrote a topic post on the subject where I similarly argued that Varys was an ally of the Blackfyres, namely Serra Blackfyre who dies of greyscale- for Illyrio and later their child FAegon. Just as well, a son would make a better claimant so "Aelor" works well enough as does his potential progeny.

Maegor son of Aerion's line is a subject of fascination to many on the forum, so speculation on the role any potential descendants might play have been tossed around. How this line looks exactly may not matter as much as the fact that is led to FAegon, furthering his legitimacy. One may even argue that the FAegon's line is the more legitimate branch of house Targaryen if in one believes that A.) Daeron the Good actually was the son of Aegon the Dragon Knight. This would make Daemon, Aegon's firstborn son with Valyrian blood on both sides. B.) As designated heir, Kingship was Daemon's right. C.) By laws of Primogenitor Aerion's line is the rightful successor. (A&B for a Blackfyre or mix, just C for solely Brightflame). Saera's pleasure house would also have some Targ blood to help maintain the bloodline or possibly serve as a place of refuge for Targ exiles. Incest may as well happen their too.

Like I said before, Dany in herself does not seem so important to the plans prior to her awakening dragons. Varys may even know she is not really a Targaryen and is in fact Ashara Dayne's daughter or some one else entirely. All that matters is the alliance she earns them. She was initially useful to the plan in securing the Dothraki Horse lord Drogo as an ally in conquest in Westeros and also possibly keeping the free cities from intervening. because that plan fell though and it is now Dany that has the army and dragons, they want the marriage. To quote a spurned suitor: "They do not see. His friends had lost sight of his true purpose here. The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself. "

Your theory is definitely plausible based on what we know and can speculate on, but because some parts can't be verified in any way, they serve more as a tool to help tell the story of the theory, which in itself was very enjoyable to read.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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this theory would work with what Moqarro said about a Bright Dragon being involve

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Sending Maegor to the Free Cities to prevent him from being used by Eggs enemies would be a rather weird move. That's a place you can barely controll, so you have almost no controll over Maegor at all, but your enemies can still approach him. Either kill him or keep him close, giving him to the Faith would be another option. I think it's very interesting that both Jon and Egg get Aemon's advise to overcome their softness and both have to deal with little children shortly after coming into power.

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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38 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

this theory would work with what Moqarro said about a Bright Dragon being involve

The 'Brightflame' nickname was a self-proclaimed one by Aerion. He called and branded himself like that, altough he wasn't that smart overall. 

Maegor the Infant is a big plothole, that's for sure, but I doubt he has anything to do with our current story. To usual readers, introducing a Maegor Targaryen would be a made-up shit that the initial story never mentioned. 

If the bright dragon has to be someone, it's probably Tyrion, him being pretty smart or something like that. 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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24 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The 'Brightflame' nickname was a self-proclaimed one by Aerion. He called and branded himself like that, altough he wasn't that smart overall. 

Maegor the Infant is a big plothole, that's for sure, but I doubt he has anything to do with our current story. To usual readers, introducing a Maegor Targaryen would be a made-up shit that the initial story never mentioned. 

If the bright dragon has to be someone, it's probably Tyrion, him being pretty smart or something like that. 

I said that as a kinda joke (fell flat I suppose) yeah Martin will have to explain the whole lineage in  like 10 chapters if he wanted to go with that theory:D:D

but in seriousness, Tyrion could be bright dragon . although Tyrion was a man in the midst of them all. also in that text we have bright and dark . therefore ,whilst reading it,  it occurred to me that it refers to people's nature (dark vs. bright) in that sense bright could be Dany or Aegon .

Quote

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.

 

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There are more hints about a Blackfyre ancestry than Brightflame ancestry.

But it's an interesting theory and he may have both, so I'm ok with it.

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10 hours ago, EggBlue said:

but in seriousness, Tyrion could be bright dragon . although Tyrion was a man in the midst of them all. also in that text we have bright and dark . therefore ,whilst reading it,  it occurred to me that it refers to people's nature (dark vs. bright) in that sense bright could be Dany or Aegon .

I’ve been thinking about this a good bit.  A lot of posters seems to think that the reference to a “dark” dragon refers to a “Blackfyre”.  I thought so too at first.  But the more I think about it, the less sure I’m becoming.  After all if you look to the original inspiration behind the family name, it was the sword “Blackfyre”.  And if you look to Blackfyre’s usual counterpart, it’s “Dark Sister”.  Which makes me think that references to a “dark” dragon probably would not be a reference to a Blackfyre.  Instead it should be a counterpart to a Blackfyre.

I wonder if instead, the dark dragon might be Bloodraven:

Quote

Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

The whispers in the dark were coming from Bloodraven.  Bloodraven was the “dragon” who wielded Dark Sister, while Damon wielded Blackfyre.  

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve been thinking about this a good bit.  A lot of posters seems to think that the reference to a “dark” dragon refers to a “Blackfyre”.  I thought so too at first.  But the more I think about it, the less sure I’m becoming.  After all if you look to the original inspiration behind the family name, it was the sword “Blackfyre”.  And if you look to Blackfyre’s usual counterpart, it’s “Dark Sister”.  Which makes me think that references to a “dark” dragon probably would not be a reference to a Blackfyre.  Instead it should be a counterpart to a Blackfyre.

I wonder if instead, the dark dragon might be Bloodraven:

The whispers in the dark were coming from Bloodraven.  Bloodraven was the “dragon” who wielded Dark Sister, while Damon wielded Blackfyre.  

 

BR's sigil was a white dragon, does this count as bright?

Quote

And above them all flew two regal dragons on night-black fields: the great three-headed beast of King Aerys I Targaryen, red as fire, and a white winged fury breathing scarlet flame. Not Maekar after all, Dunk knew, when he saw those banners. The banners of the Prince of Summerhall showed four three-headed dragons, two and two, the arms of the fourth-born son of the late King Daeron II Targaryen. A single white dragon announced the presence of the King's Hand, Lord Brynden Rivers.

 

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13 hours ago, Tucu said:

BR's sigil was a white dragon, does this count as bright?

 

I’m starting to think that this seeming reference to Tyrion being among six dragons, may in reality be only two.  Bloodraven is the old and the dark dragon.  Dany is the young and the bright.  So the only question would be who is true and who is false?

My personal suspicion is that Dany as the child of three represents the three headed dragon.  I think she may be a rejoining together of the bloodlines of Aegon the Conqueror.   Bloodraven represents the white.  And that the conflict that Tyrion finds himself in the middle of, is between these two.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m starting to think that this seeming reference to Tyrion being among six dragons, may in reality be only two.  Bloodraven is the old and the dark dragon.  Dany is the young and the bright.  So the only question would be who is true and who is false?

My personal suspicion is that Dany as the child of three represents the three headed dragon.  I think she may be a rejoining together of the bloodlines of Aegon the Conqueror.   Bloodraven represents the white.  And that the conflict that Tyrion finds himself in the middle of, is between these two.

I would count Quentyn as an example of a twice-false dragon. He both fail to bind to a dragon but he was also a betrayer as he tried to steal both dragons. This is comparable to the Sowing of the Seeds when dozens of potential dragonseeds were killed or maimed. Four succeeded but two became false dragons (the Two Betrayers), one true (loyal Addam Hull) and one not confirmed (Nettles had to ran away)

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I would count Quentyn as an example of a twice-false dragon. He both fail to bind to a dragon but he was also a betrayer as he tried to steal both dragons. This is comparable to the Sowing of the Seeds when dozens of potential dragonseeds were killed or maimed. Four succeeded but two became false dragons (the Two Betrayers), one true (loyal Addam Hull) and one not confirmed (Nettles had to ran away)

Tyrion’s not going to be around Quentyn though, is he?  

I also think the origin of this vision is important.  It’s coming from a Red Priest.  And the Red Priests seem heavily invested in the tale of the Great Other vs Azor Ahai.  Melisandre has id’d Bloodraven as the Great Other, and the Red Priests in Volantis (where Moqorro came from) are hailing Dany as Azor Ahai reborn.

So it all kind of lines up (at least in the eyes of the Red Priests), the Great Other, represented by Bloodraven, the old, dark, false dragon vs. Azor Ahai, represented by Dany, the young, bright, true dragon.

Now whether or not any of this is actually true, who knows?  But I think this interpretation may be consistent with the visions the Red Priests are receiving.

We know for almost a certainty, through her POV, that Melisandre has been receiving visions of Bloodraven and his wolf-boy Bran (or perhaps alternatively Bran and his wooden puppet Bloodraven).  So Bloodraven has been present in the vision of at least one other Red Priest.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Tyrion’s not going to be around Quentyn though, is he?  

I also think the origin of this vision is important.  It’s coming from a Red Priest.  And the Red Priests seem heavily invested in the tale of the Great Other vs Azor Ahai.  Melisandre has id’d Bloodraven as the Great Other, and the Red Priests in Volantis (where Moqorro came from) are hailing Dany as Azor Ahai reborn.

So it all kind of lines up (at least in the eyes of the Red Priests), the Great Other, represented by Bloodraven, the old, dark, false dragon vs. Azor Ahai, represented by Dany, the young, bright, true dragon.

Now whether or not any of this is actually true, who knows?  But I think this interpretation may be consistent with the visions the Red Priests are receiving.

We know for almost a certainty, through her POV, that Melisandre has been receiving visions of Bloodraven and his wolf-boy Bran (or perhaps alternatively Bran and his wooden puppet Bloodraven).  So Bloodraven has been present in the vision of at least one other Red Priest.

In a way Tyrion already crossed paths and meddled with Quentyn's fate when he influenced the Golden Company changing direction; what would have happened if the Golden Company pretended to take the Yunkish contract to get to Meereen?. Tyrion already meddled with the fate of other dragons (Stannis, Aemon, maybe Jon, Aegon) so Moqorro's vision probably refers to past and future events.

Edited by Tucu

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On 10/13/2021 at 3:58 AM, frenin said:

Pureblood??

This means he has more Valyrian blood in him than non-Valyrian blood. It's not a discriminatory term. It's just what I use to refer to actual Valyrian.

Edited by Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers

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On 10/13/2021 at 1:30 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Sending Maegor to the Free Cities to prevent him from being used by Eggs enemies would be a rather weird move. That's a place you can barely controll, so you have almost no controll over Maegor at all, but your enemies can still approach him. Either kill him or keep him close, giving him to the Faith would be another option. I think it's very interesting that both Jon and Egg get Aemon's advise to overcome their softness and both have to deal with little children shortly after coming into power.

It's basically a death sentence. They would have no way to survive in the Free Cities to Bloodraven or Egg's knowledge. They would probably die in complete obscurity. 

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28 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

It's basically a death sentence. They would have no way to survive in the Free Cities to Bloodraven or Egg's knowledge.

Not sure this is true. There are always rich people who would host exiles just in case they can make use of them one day.

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