N + W = J

[EggBlue]

Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

Where does tormenting even come from? Not telling Jon his mother's name is not torment. I believe there is nothing in the books that suggests that Jon ever asked ned who his mother was. Ned might have told Jon but Jon never asked

yeah... he was desperately in an inner conflict about his mother and hated the fact that his father never told him anything about her and yet he had never bothered to ask??? are you kidding me?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

4 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Where does tormenting even come from? Not telling Jon his mother's name is not torment. I believe there is nothing in the books that suggests that Jon ever asked ned who his mother was. Ned might have told Jon but Jon never asked

But of course! Why a child would ever feel bad about not knowing his mother.  Dude I don't even know if you are sarcastic or not!

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yeah... he was desperately in an inner conflict about his mother and hated the fact that his father never told him anything about her and yet he had never bothered to ask??? are you kidding me?

My guess is that this is simple Jon hater case.

[Nevets]

21 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

There is a big difference in dorne he will be treated like this son of a foreign Lord and our kitchen wench. This position there will derive from wylla. He will be treated like a son of a landed knight or so I believe. It's not as good as the North. 

 

Because ned stark never told him. I have explained this before. Ned stark felt ashamed of wylla. He didn't want to remember her. I highly doubt he would have his son going after her, disrupting his peaceful life. Better she stays a secret

Ned seems to have had a good relationship with the Daynes.  I expect they would be happy to treat Jon as a son of a great lord, which he would be in that instance. 

He's ashamed of his relationship with Wylla yet insists on having a living, breathing reminder around him every day?  And one that upsets his wife to boot.  Hmmm.

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You can't keep everyone shut. Sooner or later someone will tell. Someone always tells. 

 

"A bag of gold buys a man's silence for a time. A crossbow quarrel through the heart buys it forever."

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Many? it seems like everyone aside from me believes in that lyanna theory. 

Because it's the best theory with the most evidence presented. You treat Ned saying Wylla is Jon's mother like it's gospel. Are people not able to lie?

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

My guess is that this is simple Jon hater case.

I think the original poster is just determined to discredit rival claimants to Daenerys being queen of the Seven Kings.

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

yeah... he was desperately in an inner conflict about his mother and hated the fact that his father never told him anything about her and yet he had never bothered to ask??? are you kidding me?

 

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

But of course! Why a child would ever feel bad about not knowing his mother.  Dude I don't even know if you are sarcastic or not!

What is the evidence that jon ever asked ned about his mother.

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

My guess is that this is simple Jon hater case.

My guess is that you are a simple jon stan . 

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

"A bag of gold buys a man's silence for a time. A crossbow quarrel through the heart buys it forever."

You can't kill everyone can you. You'll have to cover up more and more. 

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

Because it's the best theory with the most evidence presented. You treat Ned saying Wylla is Jon's mother like it's gospel. Are people not able to lie?

You are telling me? There are people here who treat lyanna theory as word of God. What about them

The only reason that theory is popular is because it has 69  threads on it since 14 years. Give this theory at least 50 threads and then we will see

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think the original poster is just determined to discredit rival claimants to Daenerys being queen of the Seven Kings.

I don't even want dany to go to westeros

[EggBlue]

15 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don't even want dany to go to westeros

you know what? never mind... Wylla thing is a possibility... just curious... I'm guessing you believe all the Westeros will sink in the Others invasion and Dany will rule Essos and she'll burn any  white who dares to come to Essos borders...am I correct? 

[Willam Stark]

Another Stark hate thread made by Dany's worshipper...

Boring. 

[Groo]

8 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

When The usurper asks ned stark who is Jon's mother, ned says it's wylla. Now we all know that ned stark would never lie to his best friend.

I always have trouble with this kind of reasoning. The starting point is that Ned is so incredibly honorable that he would never lie. Never mind that we eventually see him lie to the whole world at the Sept of Baelor. Yet, at the same time, somehow it doesn't detract from this extreme honor that Ned supposedly cheated on his wife, refuses to talk about it with her even though she's hurt by it, refuses to tell his own son about his mother even though his son is hurt by it, and cracks down on anyone that tries to talk about it. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways. If Wylla was Jon's mother then Ned has been a dishonorable ass for over 14 years.

It's far more consistent to conclude that Ned is normally an honorable man but when his family is in danger he will lie to save them. He did it for Sansa and Arya at the Sept of Baelor and he's being doing it for Jon for over 14 years.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Groo said:

I always have trouble with this kind of reasoning. The starting point is that Ned is so incredibly honorable that he would never lie. Never mind that we eventually see him lie to the whole world at the Sept of Baelor. Yet, at the same time, somehow it doesn't detract from this extreme honor that Ned supposedly cheated on his wife, refuses to talk about it with her even though she's hurt by it, refuses to tell his own son about his mother even though his son is hurt by it, and cracks down on anyone that tries to talk about it. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways. If Wylla was Jon's mother then Ned has been a dishonorable ass for over 14 years.

It's far more consistent to conclude that Ned is normally an honorable man but when his family is in danger he will lie to save them. He did it for Sansa and Arya at the Sept of Baelor and he's being doing it for Jon for over 14 years.

I agree with this.  Ned does lie on occasion, he just doesn’t like doing it, and doesn’t do it when he doesn’t have to.  When Robert asks him the name of his bastard’s mother, he responds with “cool courtesy”, and then makes it clear that he no longer wants to talk about the matter.  I think this is Eddard, grudgingly having to lie to his friend.

But, my suspicion is that when Eddard becomes righteously indignant, he probably speaks the truth, even if he is leaving out a good part of the truth.

Case in point.  When Catelyn presses Eddard on the truth of the rumors about Ashara being Jon’s mother, Eddard becomes angrier than Catelyn had ever observed, and tells her that Jon is his blood, and that’s all she needs to know.  So here, Eddard speaks the truth.  Jon is his blood, he just doesn’t detail how exactly he’s related to Jon.

That takes me back to Eddard’s exchange with Robert.  When Robert presses Eddard to describe, Wylla, Eddard becomes angry and tells Robert, that he wasn’t going to speak about it, and further added that he had dishonored himself and Catelyn in the “sights of gods and men”.  

So my question, is was Eddard actually lying to Robert about dishonoring himself and Catelyn in the sight of gods and men?  My suspicion is that Eddard isn’t a good enough actor to be in the midst of a lie and to remain righteously angry.  I think angry Eddard is a truthful Eddard.  

So if Eddard didn’t cheat on Catelyn with Jon’s mother, how would Eddard have actually dishonored himself and Catelyn?  My guess is Eddard may be referring to his false affirmation of Jon as the dishonor he committed.  And as most affirmations seem to go in Westeros, especially those accompanied by a legal binding, it would have been done in the sight of gods and men.

If so, that brings up an interesting issue.  Because Eddard further says that his dishonor occurred while Catelyn was carrying his child.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Another Stark hate thread made by Dany's worshipper...

Boring. 

Why do we have so many Stark haters?

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Just now, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Why do we have so many Stark haters?

It makes no sense to me at all why people despise Starks especially Ned Stark so much.

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Why do we have so many Stark haters?

Yea, for example, I don't’ know why so many people are hell bent in turning Jon into a Targaryen  when his entire story arc has been building up to his place within the Starks and his desire for Winterfell.

[corbon]

 

7 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Didn't you read the quote you yourself gave me. The usurper confirmed that he was talking about Ned's bastards mother

Look

Did you read it? It certainly seems not.

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

He did say I explained it to you like 3 times. I'll explain it again. 

The usurper asked which was Ned's whore, he then says that he was talking about Ned's bastard's mother to which he replies wylla. Ned's lover and Jon's mother is wylla simple. 

Lets actually examine the passage then, not your gross mis-characterisation of it.

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours?¹ Becca?^2a No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena?^2b No. You told me once. Was it Merryl?^2c You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?³"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

Lets look at Robert's actual question(s).
1. "what was her name, that common girl of yours"?
Note that the question here is the girls name. That she was 'Ned's common girl" is a statement by Robert used to clarify the subject of the question.
The appropriate way to answer to this question would be a woman's name.
2(abc) These are not actually questions as such. They are Robert's attempts to answer his own question, arguably you could call thenm a questin in themselves, which really consists of "is this the right name?"
The appropriate way to answer to these questions would be "Yes" or "No" (or some similar variant such as "it was").
3. This is not actually a question at all. Its a statement, two actually, by Robert. Nothing in the wording there is a question. The only thing that turns it into a question in any way is the question mark at its end, and since nothing in it itself is actually a question, that makes it a reference to the original, still unanswered, question. There is no appropriate way answer to this 'question'.
ETA: I guess if taken in isolation, one could argue that "Your bastard's mother?" could be a question in itself. That would be a shortcut use of language that doesn't fit Robert's speech patterns, and is inappropriate given the context its placed in and the continued reference to the original question within the same sentence (you know the one I mean). But some people will still argue that rather than give up their convictions I guess. The big problem with this, ignoring the language flow and context issues, is that "her name was Wylla" is still not an appropriate answer to this question. That would be yes, no, she was, aye, or similar, before, after or instead of. giving the name. But none of those appear. 

So what we have here is really just 1 question (what was her name) along wit a series of related statements by Robert (not Ned) and some guesses.

Then we get Ned's response. And perfectly reasonably, its an appropriate answer to the only actual question asked, and not an appropriate answer to any of the rest of Robert's ramblings.

ETA: Whatever your reading comprehension level, its clear that Ned never stated, nor agreed with Robert's proposition that, nor answered Robert;s question that, Wylla was Jon's mother.
The only answer Ned gave Robert was "Wylla was her name" which is only an appropriate answer for the first question Robert asked.

Also worth noting:
 - Robert never met Wylla, and complains to Ned of this, which means he was never around Ned and Wylla together and doesn't actually have personal experience of N+W. 
 - Robert says Ned was 'never the boy you were' which is a very strong indication that young Ned, like older Ned, was a sober, serious man who didn't mess around.
 - Robert also says "there was that one time" which means he doesn't know of any other time Ned fooled around with a girl, and given he never met Wylla, in Robert's personal experience Ned never fooled around.
 - the only thing Robert says Ned told him before was the girls name.

Quote

Many? it seems like everyone aside from me believes in that lyanna theory. 

A significant portion of readers do, perhaps more than half, its hard to tell. Thats because its got overwhelming evidence in its favour at multiple levels, satisfies multiple levels of plot value both past ad future, and zero substantial flaws.
Oh, people, just like you did, often complain about imaginary flaws in it but such complaints are always based on irrational reasoning, flawed comprehension or calculations, or... well, nothing anybody can really understand.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with this.  Ned does lie on occasion, he just doesn’t like doing it, and doesn’t do it when he doesn’t have to.  When Robert asks him the name of his bastard’s mother, he responds with “cool courtesy”, and then makes it clear that he no longer wants to talk about the matter.  I think this is Eddard, grudgingly having to lie to his friend.

I think its having to address the subject at all. He got angry with Cat too, but that wasn't about being forced to lie. 

Quote

But, my suspicion is that when Eddard becomes righteously indignant, he probably speaks the truth, even if he is leaving out a good part of the truth.

Agreed, more or less.

Quote

So if Eddard didn’t cheat on Catelyn with Jon’s mother, how would Eddard have actually dishonored himself and Catelyn?  My guess is Eddard may be referring to his false affirmation of Jon as the dishonor he committed.  And as most affirmations seem to go in Westeros, especially those accompanied by a legal binding, it would have been done in the sight of gods and men.

 

Jon was treated at Winterfell as Ned's bastard. He is included, for example, when Ned says "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."
That means, whether of not there was any official affirmation, whether or not Ned formally claimed Jon as his own son, in everybody's perception Jon is Ned's son and Ned allowed that perception to take root.
That in itself is a dishonour to Cat  (as she herself notes, having a bastard is nothing special, its bringing him home that was the problem) and IMO satisfies Ned's 'truthiness' here. 

I know you and I differ over this, I just point out (again) that your conclusions are not the only reasonable ones from the data, for the benefit of other readers.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If so, that brings up an interesting issue.  Because Eddard further says that his dishonor occurred while Catelyn was carrying his child.

Certainly the origins of the 'offense' appears to have happened while she was carrying his child. Again, IMO this satisfies Ned's 'truthiness' here. YMV I know.

[EggBlue]

7 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

It makes no sense to me at all why people despise Starks especially Ned Stark so much.

 

it's a trend I suppose

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, for example, I don't’ know why so many people are hell bent in turning Jon into a Targaryen  when his entire story arc has been building up to his place within the Starks and his desire for Winterfell.

I don't think the point is making Jon a Targaryen . it's Lyanna who's the main persona in Jon's story. his half Targaryen just happens due to Lyanna's lover . the point is that he could shake the feeling that his mother and by extension him are Ned's deepest regret and shame. doesn't really matter if he is a bastard or a prince or who his father is in his arc. he simply feels left out and that's why he hates the fact that Robb gets their father name, title and legacy when he'll be forgotten on the Wall. if he realizes that Ned didn't feel ashamed of him rather he had sacrificed the most precious thing in his life to protect him , all his feelings through the years would resolve. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You are telling me? There are people here who treat lyanna theory as word of God. What about them

 

I remember I posted the link to the theory page of Jon Snow's mother on your thread about what Lyanna died from. You said that it proved it was Wylla. Did you, by any chance scroll down to see the Lyanna page? There's more evidence for than against it. One last thing. It's a rich thing, you claiming that they treat the Lyanna theory like the word of God. Look in the mirror, my lord. 

3 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Another Stark hate thread made by Dany's worshipper...

Boring

Not all of us are that bad. Dany's my favorite, but I don't treat her like the best thing since pepperoni pizza and sliced bread. And I don't mind the Starks (in the books, the show I'm much more mixed). 

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don't even want dany to go to westeros

Good luck with that. What's the point of introducing Dany and the dragons if she's hardly going to be involved with the AotD? 

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You can't kill everyone can you

You don't need to kill everyone. Howland's most likely loyal to the Starks and he lives in the crannogs anyway. If he did say something, it'd be easy for Ned to call him a liar. The people who you would kill after you don't need them are any servants, wet nurse, etc. Quietly, of course. 

[Frey family reunion]

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

Jon was treated at Winterfell as Ned's bastard. He is included, for example, when Ned says "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."
That means, whether of not there was any official affirmation, whether or not Ned formally claimed Jon as his own son, in everybody's perception Jon is Ned's son and Ned allowed that perception to take root.
That in itself is a dishonour to Cat  (as she herself notes, having a bastard is nothing special, its bringing him home that was the problem) and IMO satisfies Ned's 'truthiness' here. 

I know you and I differ over this, I just point out (again) that your conclusions are not the only reasonable ones from the data, for the benefit of other readers.

Obviously just my take on Ned, but I think Ned thought of Jon as his son, and I think legally, Jon became Ned’s son, (whether or not the facts involved in the affirmation were true). And obviously, it certainly doesn’t mean that Ned conceived Jon.  

It seems paradoxical in a way, but Ned’s affirmation of Jon as his son was a lie.  But when Ned made the affirmation it turned Jon into his son in truth (at least in a legal sense).

[Daeron the Daring]

N+W=J could hardly be true once you address the fact that Jon's mother is Lyanna. 

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think the original poster is just determined to discredit rival claimants to Daenerys being queen of the Seven Kings.

You know it's a lost cause when he constantly calls Robert "the usurper".

[Jaenara Belarys]

For quick reference, people: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories#Lyanna_Stark_and_Rhaegar_Targaryen

21 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You know it's a lost cause when he constantly calls Robert "the usurper".

It's a lost cause, but it sure is amusing to watch the OP being dogpiled. No offense intended, of course.