N + W = J

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

They said there were three big moments that GRRM told them and had not written yet, all but confirmed as Shireen burning, Hold the Door, and King Bran. So why would they change the parentage of Jon Snow if they knew the truth?

That’s a fairly simple answer.  Either he asked them not to reveal his plan, or

D & D didn’t like George’s plans.  Perhaps they thought it was gross/puke.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

They said there were three big moments that GRRM told them and had not written yet, all but confirmed as Shireen burning, Hold the Door, and King Bran.

The only real problem with this is King Bran isn't a solution. We, at this point, should consider Bran being the endgame, yet, Bran differs from anyone else. Bran becoming king in the end has to face a big problem that noone else would have to, from Hot Pie trough Daenerys to Walder Frey. 

Bran will likely be unable to father children. That doesn't make him unable to become king, but it stops him from bringing to the world in any way someone who can take on his place once he's gone. Now wether Bran lives 20, 40, 100 or 1000 years is up to debate, but he will die eventually, like everyone does. Who will take on his role as King of the 7K? With anyone else you would assume it will be his/her children and other descendants. That doesn't apply to Bran. In a sense, King Bran would be an unfinished story, a good but not everlasting decision. George said he never ever imagined any form of future after his own ending, and doesn't intends to do either. The supposed end of ADOS will be the end of written history of his fantasy world. If he were to make Bran king, he would have to answer other things as well, such as who will take on his role once he's gone. A question, which would never be brought up if anyone else would to become king. 

That being said, we have to take into account how widely open the story can remain with a King Bran, leaving space to probably anything else, unlike other endings. Hodor's fate is a pretty strick one, Shireen's is somewhat more opened, as the only requirement is her death by fire. King Bran leaves a lot of space unfilled, which gives a greater variation of endings, basically anything could be possible beside that. 

I don' t know if that's good or bad. I'm not a big fan of King Bran ending (altough it would be dumb to ignore it and pretend at it isn't the likeliest option based on the comment of the actor that played him made), not gonna lie, and I don't know if I'm being realistic when I suppose it might not happen. Surely, something like Hodor's case can't be changed by Martin, that's hardly coded into the story already. King Bran, on the other hand isn't. There is no character at this point of the story that would have to be made king/queen. That being said, if George goes with a King Bran ending, I'm gonna appreciate it. It doesn't mean that Jon, Daenerys, Young Griff or Hot Pie (oldschool king/queen candidates) will die screaming or anything like that. We'll have to see if the King of the Seven Kingdoms is a winner position, or if there's any winner positions at all. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

51 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The only real problem with this is King Bran isn't a solution. We, at this point, should consider Bran being the endgame, yet, Bran differs from anyone else. Bran becoming king in the end has to face a big problem that noone else would have to, from Hot Pie trough Daenerys to Walder Frey. 

 

There's also the problem of it being an elective monarchy. That sort of thing is the recipe for wars and murders and bribes and all sorts of bad stuff. 

52 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

A question, which would never be brought up if anyone else would to become king. 

It would also potentially belong to Dany, but I'm fairly certain there's a baby waiting. 

[Jon Fossoway]

He could name an heir, y'know.

[Daenerysthegreat]

3 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

He could name an heir, y'know.

Who is this 'he' who are you talking about

[Daeron the Daring]

47 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

There's also the problem of it being an elective monarchy. That sort of thing is the recipe for wars and murders and bribes and all sorts of bad stuff. 

Elective monarchy is a rather often discussed thingy whenever people discuss who will be king. In a world where last names (thousands of years old ones) give you legitimacy and strenghten your authority, I think it's safe to assume there will be no such thing. Neither do I think an election would vote Brandon Stark, a believer of the Old Gods King of the Seven Kingdoms. That'll be a thing believers of the Faith will have to consume. Elective monarchy is arguably worse than any other form of monarchy when it is based on feudal foundations. The Holy Roman Empire was somewhat better than usual, since the Pope had a word in it for a very long time (and the Pope's authority was based on religion), but it still rather often turned into a 'playground', and people always tried to get rid of elective inheritance until they succeeded. 

[Daeron the Daring]

9 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

He could name an heir, y'know.

Who we may never get to know, unless that person would be born and named heir at the end of ADOS, which also raises further questions. The main pont is that we would be left hanging that way with a serious plothole or something similar.

[StarksInTheNorth]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Who is this 'he' who are you talking about

Bran

[Daenerysthegreat]

Just now, StarksInTheNorth said:

Bran

Oh I thought it was about robb

[StarksInTheNorth]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The only real problem with this is King Bran isn't a solution.

I was mostly just pointing out that D&D went with showing these three big moments that were likely in line with GRRM’s vision, so following his vision for Jon’s parentage is also probably likely. The way they reacted, I don’t think they were fans of King Bran, but they did it anyway. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

Just now, StarksInTheNorth said:

I was mostly just pointing out that D&D went with showing these three big moments that were likely in line with GRRM’s vision, so following his vision for Jon’s parentage is also probably likely. The way they reacted, I don’t think they were fans of King Bran, but they did it anyway. 

And we saw how poorly that worked out. 

[StarksInTheNorth]

Getting back on the topic of Jon’s parents, I also find this interview/panel very helpful on the topic. It’s a fan panel, but it includes the mods/owners of this very forum, who also have the honor of being the only approved non-GRRM authors in ASOIAF.

Granted, Ran/Elio has previously said that he’s not going to change his public opinion based on spoilers he learns. Thus, if he’s read something that says Wylla is Mama Snow, he’s probably not going to voice that publicly until Winds is released. BUT I’d argue it’s very telling that he and Linda both support R+L=J. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

And we saw how poorly that worked out. 

Look, D&D knew Jon's parentage and they most likely incorporated the actual parents into the show. The only problem with the revelation was that it didn't play any major role in the story and Jon was basically sentenced to the Night's Watch to die instead of being treated as an actual claimant to the throne. Gendry and Jon were the only two claimants to the Throne but both were ignored.

[Willam Stark]

20 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Why do we have so many Stark haters?

Dany's fate in the show I think, there weren't that many before the end of GoT.

I suggest you all to let this thread fall into oblivion as soon as possible.

[Daenerysthegreat]

16 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Getting back on the topic of Jon’s parents, I also find this interview/panel very helpful on the topic. It’s a fan panel, but it includes the mods/owners of this very forum, who also have the honor of being the only approved non-GRRM authors in ASOIAF.

Granted, Ran/Elio has previously said that he’s not going to change his public opinion based on spoilers he learns. Thus, if he’s read something that says Wylla is Mama Snow, he’s probably not going to voice that publicly until Winds is released. BUT I’d argue it’s very telling that he and Linda both support R+L=J. 

Or maybe it's meant to confuse the devoted fans who frequent the forum. 

It could also be a possibility a very small possiblity that the lyanna theory was first intended by the author. But he couldn't work it out and scrapped it up. 

And there's a small chance that we won't ever learn Jon's parentage ever. 

3 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

 

I suggest you all to let this thread fall into oblivion as soon as possible.

Just because you don't agree with a theory doesn't mean it should fall into Oblivion. 

If that was the case I want the lyanna their to go to oblivion along with the tyrion targaryen theory

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/14/2021 at 9:35 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Just because you don't agree with a theory doesn't mean it should fall into Oblivion. 

 

When everyone who visits your thread disagrees, and you keep being stubborn  then I'm fairly certain that they'll want this thread to fade. 

 

On 10/14/2021 at 9:15 AM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Look, D&D knew Jon's parentage and they most likely incorporated the actual parents into the show. The only problem with the revelation was that it didn't play any major role in the story and Jon was basically sentenced to the Night's Watch to die instead of being treated as an actual claimant to the throne. Gendry and Jon were the only two claimants to the Throne but both were ignored.

You've forgotten Dany. Besides, Gendry is a bastard, so thus no claim. Plus, whatever D&D know, they'd fuck up whatever they got their hands on

On 10/14/2021 at 9:35 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

It could also be a possibility a very small possiblity that the lyanna theory was first intended by the author. But he couldn't work it out and scrapped it up. 

 

LMAO, did you read @Lord Lannister's post a page or two back? It's too entangled in the series now to back out without looking stupid. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

LMAO, did you read @Lord Lannister's post a page or two back? It's too entangled in the series now to back out without looking stupid. 

Well it doesn't look entangled as no one in the books even as much as mentions it. While the wylla theory is created in the first book itself

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well it doesn't look entangled as no one in the books even as much as mentions it. While the wylla theory is created in the first book itself

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

Do us a courtesy and look at the bottom, please. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s a fairly simple answer.  Either he asked them not to reveal his plan, or

D & D didn’t like George’s plans.  Perhaps they thought it was gross/puke.

Martin is on record as telling them key plot points for the ending and he's said in the past that he believes adaptations should be faithful to the source material, I see no reason to think he asked them to change it. I believe you're hinting at Starkcest in the last line if I recall your previous position on this, but I think the following quote from Martin is relevant for people still pushing alternate theories:

Quote

“The internet affects all this to a degree it was never affected before,” Martin said. “Like Jon Snow’s parentage. There were early hints about [who Snow’s parents were] in the books, but only one reader in 100 put it together. And before the internet that was fine — for 99 readers out of 100 when Jon Snow’s parentage gets revealed it would be, ‘Oh, that’s a great twist!’ But in the age of the internet, even if only one person in 100 figures it out then that one person posts it online and the other 99 people read it and go, ‘Oh, that makes sense.’ Suddenly the twist you’re building towards is out there.”

This makes perfect sense if he's talking about R + L = J, something that's never directly suggested as a possibility in the books but became the most common theory in the fandom because of the Internet. The next most common theory, N + A (and for that matter N + W since based on this thread apparently there's still some people who think that's the actual answer), is explicitly and repeatedly presented to the reader starting early in AGOT. Pretty much every other theory (and if we're specifically talking about Starkcest I think any variation of that would qualify) is fringe enough that it wouldn't make any sense for Martin to feel his twist was spoiled.

[Daenerysthegreat]

5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

Do us a courtesy and look at the bottom, please. 

You do me the courtesy of looking into the wylla section. 

And did you even consider the wylla theory, examine the evidences and all