N + W = J

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You've forgotten Dany. Besides, Gendry is a bastard, so thus no claim. Plus, whatever D&D know, they'd fuck up whatever they got their hands on

He's talking about the end of the show, Dany was dead and Gendry had been legitimized.

[Daenerysthegreat]

Just now, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Martin is on record as telling them key plot points for the ending and he's said in the past that he believes adaptations should be faithful to the source material, I see no reason to think he asked them to change it. I believe you're hinting at Starkcest in the last line if I recall your previous position on this, but I think the following quote from Martin is relevant for people still pushing alternate theories:

This makes perfect sense if he's talking about R + L = J, something that's never directly suggested as a possibility in the books but became the most common theory in the fandom because of the Internet. The next most common theory, N + A (and for that matter N + W since based on this thread apparently there's still some people who think that's the actual answer), is explicitly and repeatedly presented to the reader starting early in AGOT. Pretty much every other theory (and if we're specifically talking about Starkcest I think any variation of that would qualify) is fringe enough that it wouldn't make any sense for Martin to feel his twist was spoiled.

So he must have changed it. Simple. Like the five year gap

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

You do me the courtesy of looking into the wylla section. 

 

I read this page long before you joined the forum. 

1 minute ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

And did you even consider the wylla theory, examine the evidences and all

Yes. Did you ever consider the Lyanna theory, examine the evidence and all?

[Daenerysthegreat]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

Yes. Did you ever consider the Lyanna theory, examine the evidence and all?

Yes I did 

The evidence for it I believe is extremely small and rather relies on the imagination of the reader. The theory is mostly this

Ned is honourable but he can lie for honour so he must be holding this big lie. 

This big lie must be related to jon since we never hear about his mom. 

Lyanna's death was suspicious, maybe from childbirth maybe from giving birth to jon. 

Jon is the son of lyanna and rhaegar. 

 

 

[Willam Stark]

22 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Just because you don't agree with a theory doesn't mean it should fall into Oblivion. 

Quite the opposite when it's about a Stark hate thread.

23 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If that was the case I want the lyanna their to go to oblivion along with the tyrion targaryen theory

I don't care.

I hope the others won't waste more time on this thread and let it fall into oblivion. Sincerely yours.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

4 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

So he must have changed it. Simple. Like the five year gap

Or what Ned Stark tells Robert and Ned Dayne tells Arya is not meant to be taken at face value?

[Jaenara Belarys]

Lyanna was Eddard Stark's younger sister, who was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.^[28] In 281 AC, Lyanna was present at the tourney at Harrenhal, where she was crowned the queen of love and beauty by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.^[16][29] The next year, Lyanna came face to face with Rhaegar ten leagues from Harrenhal,^[29] and was abducted by him^[30][31][32] at swordpoint,^[33] according to a semi-canon source with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent, two knights of his father's Kingsguard.^[34] When her brother Brandon learned about this, he rode to King's Landing, where he was arrested and charged with treason. King Aerys II Targaryen summoned Lyanna's father Rickard to court, and subsequently had both Brandon and Rickard killed. Lord Jon Arryn's response to Aerys's next demanded started Robert's Rebellion,^[24][35][36] which lasted "close to a year".

Lyanna was found by Eddard after the war had ended at the tower of joy.^[37] Eddard was by her side when she died, in a bed that smelled "of blood and roses".^[38] Shortly before her death, fearing something unknown, Lyanna extracted a promise from Eddard.^[38] Eddard brought Lyanna's remains home to Winterfell.^[38][21]

The theory proposes that Jon is Lyanna's son by Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna's abductor. Rhaegar, who had been married to Elia Martell, had two children by his wife, but following the birth of his second child, the maesters informed him that Elia could have no more children.^[39] Kevan Lannister believes that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because he wanted more sons,^[40][41] while Robert believes that Rhaegar raped Lyanna "hundreds of times".^[6]

Supporting evidence

The following arguments are frequently used in favor of this theory:

• Blue winter roses are associated in text with Lyanna, Rhaegar, death, and a newborn child:
  • Lyanna was crowned by Rhaegar at the tourney at Harrenhal using "a crown of winter roses, blue as frost".^[16]
  • While in captivity, Eddard Stark dreams of Lyanna's statue in the crypts of Winterfell, where she is wearing a garland of pale blue roses, while weeping blood.^[16]
  • To Robert, Eddard states that Lyanna was fond of flowers,^[38] and to himself he thinks that she had loved the scent of winter roses.^[16]
  • As she is dying, rose petals spill from Lyanna's palm, dead and black.^[38]
  • During a fever dream about the combat at the tower of joy, Eddard dreams of a storm of rose petals blowing across a blood-streaked sky, "as blue as the eyes of death", while hearing Lyanna call out to him.^[37]
  • Theon has a prophetic-like dream in which he sees Lyanna, who had never known personally, in a gown spattered with gore wearing a crown of pale blue roses.^[42]
  • When Cersei Lannister tells Eddard how Robert whispered Lyanna's name in her ear during their wedding night, Eddard thinks of pale blue roses and wants to weep.^[7]
  • While at the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees a vision of a blue flower growing in a wall of ice,^[43] which would symbolize Jon Snow at the Wall.
  • According to legend, Bael the Bard climbed the Wall, and traveled to Winterfell pretending to be a singer with a harp. There, he impressed Lord Brandon Stark, and was allowed to choose a reward. He requested the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens, and Lord Brandon agreed to offer him the most of his blue winter roses. The following morning, Bael was found to have disappeared with Lord Brandon's only daughter, a young maiden, having left the blue winter rose behind in her bed. The girl was found by Lord Stark again a year later, with the babe Bael had fathered on her, having hid in the crypts of Winterfell all that time.^[44]
    • The parallel with Bael is Rhaegar, also royalty, a singer^[9] and harpist,^[45][46] who gave blue winter roses to a Stark and took Lord Stark's (Rickard's) only maiden daughter (Lyanna), only for her to be eventually found again by Lord Stark (by now her brother, Eddard), according to the theory with a newborn babe (Jon).
• Eddard found Lyanna dying, stricken with a fever which had taken all of her strength,^[38] in her "bed of blood".^[37][16] The terms "beds of blood and pain"^[47] and "bloody bed"^[48] are used in further text to refer to childbirth, giving the impression that Lyanna's "bed of blood" might likewise be connected to childbirth.
• Jon is said to resemble Arya Stark in appearance.^[49][25] Arya is said to look like Lyanna,^[50] thereby linking Jon's appearance to Lyanna's. The statement made by Tyrion Lannister that Jon looks so much like a Stark, and that "whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.", would be most ironic if Jon's Stark parent was indeed Lyanna, and not Eddard.
• According to Catelyn Stark, Eddard must have loved Jon's mother fiercely.^[2] Eddard himself recalls how he had "loved [Lyanna] with all his heart".^[38]
• As she was dying, a fearful Lyanna extracted a promise from Eddard, and was only reassured when he gave her his word.^[38] Eddard recalls Lyanna whispering "promise me, Ned" frequently throughout the story,^[6][51][16] and at one point thinks back to "the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them".^[28] At some point, Eddard recalls Robert ordering the pregnant Daenerys Targaryen slain, as well as how Robert had turned away from the corpses of the brutally murdered young children of Prince Rhaegar's by Elia Martell during the war, as well as turning away when Sansa Stark's innocent direwolf pup Lady was ordered executed. Sansa's pleading for the life of her pup makes him think of Lyanna's pleading.^[52] That Robert either ordering the death of Targaryen children, or approving of the death of Targaryen children, and Robert being willing to allow an innocent pup to be killed evoke the memory of Lyanna's pleas, could suggest that Lyanna made Eddard promise to keep her child by Rhaegar safe. After all, according to Tywin Lannister "Robert's hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret"^[53] and according to Eddard, even fifteen years after Rhaegar's death by Robert's hand, Robert still hates him just as much as when he was still alive.^[54] In addition, Robert considered Rhaegar's young children to be "dragonspawn", and saw no issue in their deaths.^[6] The idea that Lyanna would fear for the life of her child by Rhaegar is more than valid, and Eddard's line of thought regarding Lyanna's promise and her pleas is argued to favor this idea. In addition, it provides Eddard with the motivation to lie about Jon's parentage, even to his new wife.
• At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Eddard travels with six companions to the tower of joy, where they encounter three Kingsguard knights guarding the tower where Lyanna resides: Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne.^[37] In Eddard's fever dream, the three white cloaks reaffirm their loyalty to House Targaryen, before engaging in combat with the northmen.^[37] A Kingsguard's duty is defending the king and obeying his commands. The king might decide to extend Kingsguard protection to others in his family, or even their mistresses and bastards.^[55] The presence of the three Kingsguard knights at the tower where Lyanna was being kept has been taken to mean by supporters of the theory that Rhaegar's child by Lyanna was present at the tower. Eddard Stark considered Arthur Dayne "the finest knight" he ever saw, "a marvel, a shining lesson to the world" years after Arthur's death,^[56] implying that Eddard considers Arthur's (and by default Oswell's and Gerold's) reasons for being at the tower in line with his Kingsguard vows, indicating they acted on orders given to them by a Targaryen.
  • Some supporters of the theory have even suggested the presence of the Kingsguard knights implies that Lyanna's child is considered the heir to the Iron Throne following the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar. In this scenario, Rhaegar and Lyanna had wed before he returned to King's Landing. The Targaryen tradition of polygamous marriages would allow for this possibility.
  • Arthur Dayne's presence makes it plausible that Wylla, known to serve House Dayne as a wetnurse, was also present at the tower as a wetnurse provided by Arthur for Lyanna's child, explaining why Robert Baratheon and Edric Dayne were told Wylla was Jon's mother.
• Rhaegar's motivation for taking Lyanna have been argued to have two possibilities: either because he loved Lyanna, as argued by Daenerys Targaryen,^[4][57] Barristan Selmy,^[11] and singers,^[58] or due to prophecy. Prophecy undeniably played an important role in Rhaegar's motivations for his actions.^[46][59] In the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees a vision of Rhaegar with his wife Elia shortly after the birth of their son Aegon. Rhaegar proclaims that "there must be a one more" because "the dragon has three heads".^[43] Given that the maesters told Rhaegar after Aegon's birth that his wife Elia could have no more children,^[39] Rhaegar could have attempted to fulfill the prophecy by having a third child with another woman. The fact that Rhaegar named the tower the "tower of joy"^[37] would fit with both interpretations: either joy over being with the woman he loved, or joy over fulfilling the prophecy.
  • Eddard's proclamation of Lyanna's character^[60] and her "wolf blood", which he claims brought her to an early grave,^[50] could suggest Lyanna had not gone with Rhaegar against her will, although others have suggested it instead refers to another theory.
• Bran sees a vision of his father, much younger than he had ever known him, praying in front of the weirwood tree in Winterfell's godswood, saying "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them. And let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"^[61] Readers have suggested that this is Eddard after his return to Winterfell following Robert's Rebellion, referring to Robb and Jon with "let them grow up close as brothers", which would mean that the two boys are not brothers. Furthermore, besides his supposed affair during the first year of his marriage, the novels mention nothing that Eddard has done that could possibly require Catelyn's forgiveness.
•  

[Jaenara Belarys]

Does this look like the short list you presented? 

[Daenerysthegreat]

17 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Quite the opposite when it's about a Stark hate thread.

I don't care.

I hope the others won't waste more time on this thread and let it fall into oblivion. Sincerely yours.

I don't like stark stans liek you. Actually I'm not even a stark hater. More than half the starks are my favorite. 

Your tone suggests that you will fall into oblivion be careful. 

10 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Does this look like the short list you presented? 

I don't want to present the entire list since people can read it anytime they want

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don't want to present the entire list since people can read it anytime they want

No shit, Sherlock. What I was asking is this: does this look like what you say here?

25 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The evidence for it I believe is extremely small and rather relies on the imagination of the reader. The theory is mostly this

Ned is honourable but he can lie for honour so he must be holding this big lie. 

This big lie must be related to jon since we never hear about his mom. 

Lyanna's death was suspicious, maybe from childbirth maybe from giving birth to jon. 

Jon is the son of lyanna and rhaegar. 

 

It doesn't, does it? 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Martin is on record as telling them key plot points for the ending and he's said in the past that he believes adaptations should be faithful to the source material, I see no reason to think he asked them to change it. I believe you're hinting at Starkcest in the last line if I recall your previous position on this, but I think the following quote from Martin is relevant for people still pushing alternate theories:

This makes perfect sense if he's talking about R + L = J, something that's never directly suggested as a possibility in the books but became the most common theory in the fandom because of the Internet. The next most common theory, N + A (and for that matter N + W since based on this thread apparently there's still some people who think that's the actual answer), is explicitly and repeatedly presented to the reader starting early in AGOT. Pretty much every other theory (and if we're specifically talking about Starkcest I think any variation of that would qualify) is fringe enough that it wouldn't make any sense for Martin to feel his twist was spoiled.

We know for a fact that they changed key elements to his story.  Not having Val, Young Griff, Old Griff, Arianne, Lady Stoneheart, Victarion, Aerion and killing off Barristan and Stannis prematurely, putting Sansa in the role of Jeyne Poole, ect. ect.  Hopefully you don't have some trust in those two bozos having faithfully pulled off George's vision.  

Speaking of the two bozos, show runners themselves have remained noncommital as to whether their reveal for Jon's father is the same as George's.  I'm almost fairly certain that they said that it might not be the same.. The only thing that they really spoiled is Jon's mother being Lyanna.

But regardless, the question was why would they change it, and I think I gave two pretty good explanations as to why.  Either George wanted some things left as a surprise for his story, or they didn't like some of George's upcoming plans.  

And no, it wasn't the internet that made the R + L = J a very likely possibility.  I started AGOT as soon as it came out in paperback, and while the internet existed it didn't have the same reach as it did today, and I was able to come to the R + L J conclusion before I finished the first book without peeking or even knowing about any message boards for this book. 

What made it a fairly easy twist to assume, at least to avid fantasy readers, is that this series came on the heels of two other major epic fantasies, A Wheel of Time, and Tad Williams memory, sorry, and thorn. epic series where the main protaganist was a hidden "dragon" or rightful heir to the throne ect.    (And this doesn't even cover ALoTR, Arthurian literature, ect. ect.) where the main protaganist was a hidden king or prince.  It's a fairly common fantasy trope.  

And it may very well be that GRRM is putting his own spin on the trope as opposed to completely subverting it.  So I woldn't be surprised if George's reveal may the obvious one, albeit with one of George's own peculiar twist to the tale.

Or that George is purposely trying to lead the reader to the wrong conclusion, and wants a big surprise reveal.  If that's the case than it wouldn't surprise me if George asked the show runners to go with the conclusion that he's trying to lead the reader towards.  And the showrunners were more than happy to oblige because it gave them what they wanted, a romance/conflict between the two "leads" of their series.  

Regardless, if George does opt for a surprise reveal, I assume it will be one that would add to Jon's story arc that George has spent the last five books crafting.  Which is Jon's place within the Stark family, his desire for Winterfell, and his duty towards the NIght's Watch.  After this much time, making a 180 and sending Jon towards the Iron Throne with only two (?) books to go, seems a bit abrupt.   Brandon being Jon's father, does create an interesting internal conflict in someone who has always felt unworthy and guilty about his desire to covet Winterfell.

(I'll save for now my other suspicion that George is being influenced mightily by the Norse saga of Sigurd and Wagner's epic opera, the Ring saga).

So the further we've gone without George starting to steer Jon's story line towards one that would benefit from Rhaegar being Jon's father, the more suspicious I'm becoming about this possibility.

ETA: and if the show's reveal was a matter of fact spoiler, than why does George remain so tight lipped when asked about Jon's father?  Why doesnt' he shrug and basically admit it like he's done regarding Lyanna being Jon's mom?

 

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Regardless, if George does opt for a surprise reveal, I assume it will be one that would add to Jon's story arc that George has spent the last five books crafting.  Which is Jon's place within the Stark family, his desire for Winterfell, and his duty towards the NIght's Watch.  After this much time, making a 180 and sending Jon towards the Iron Throne with only two (?) books to go, seems a bit abrupt.   Brandon being Jon's father, does create an interesting internal conflict in someone who has always felt unworthy and guilty about his desire to covet Winterfell.

God that would be disgusting! anyway I understand your way of thinking and it makes sense. but it still feels like Jon's story is more about his mother and his relationship with Ned that is the basis of his relationship with his siblings( Robb in particular) , the way he fits in the family and his position in inheritance of Winterfell. if Rhaegar's the father it won't fit in the story to push him to the throne or anything (heck maybe even his parentage wouldn't be public knowledge). he could be filling a part in the prophecy Rhaegar was so obsessed about. the problem with the show was that the only place that Jon's parents mattered was regarding iron throne because there was no prophecy and absolutely no indication that anyone other than Mel knew about the danger of long night and Rhaegar wasn't anything more than a singer prince who threw everything for a girl but in the books it would be fitting in Jon's arc regarding his place as Ned's bastard and it would give him a roll in Rhaegar's plans regrading battle of dawn.

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

God that would be disgusting! anyway I understand your way of thinking and it makes sense. but it still feels like Jon's story is more about his mother and his relationship with Ned that is the basis of his relationship with his siblings( Robb in particular) , the way he fits in the family and his position in inheritance of Winterfell. if Rhaegar's the father it won't fit in the story to push him to the throne or anything (heck maybe even his parentage wouldn't be public knowledge). he could be filling a part in the prophecy Rhaegar was so obsessed about. the problem with the show was that the only place that Jon's parents mattered was regarding iron throne because there was no prophecy and absolutely no indication that anyone other than Mel knew about the danger of long night and Rhaegar wasn't anything more than a singer prince who threw everything for a girl but in the books it would be fitting in Jon's arc regarding his place as Ned's bastard and it would give him a roll in Rhaegar's plans regrading battle of dawn.

I don’t disagree with anything you said.  And if Jon is Rhaegar’s son, then I also expect it to be more an issue with prophecy than I do some type of political claim to the Iron Throne.

And yes, I also agree with you, the show did a very piss poor job of setting up Jon’s parentage no matter who they chose.  They simply did not do enough to set up the backstory behind the rebellion.  A lot of my friends who only watched the show, saw the “wedding vision” between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and thought that Lyanna had married Viserys.

And I’m not sure Brandon got more than one or two mentions during the entire run of the show,

ETA: I got a chance to meet GRRM at a convention, and during a Q & A I asked him about the show’s lack of flashbacks concerning past events considering memories of these events seem so crucial to the books.

He seemed to agree and also added that this wasn’t his call, that those decisions were up to D & D.

[EggBlue]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

ETA: I got a chance to meet GRRM at a convention, and during a Q & A I asked him about the show’s lack of flashbacks concerning past events considering memories of these events seem so crucial to the books.

He seemed to agree and also added that this wasn’t his call, that those decisions were up to D & D.

that clearly was a horrible choice. I personally watched the show first. so much of book material was new to me and surprisingly it wasn't just about details but about major characteristics and major plots. for example I remember  in the show I thought Stannis was a fanatic and yet in the books he seems more of an atheist! 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

that clearly was a horrible choice. I personally watched the show first. so much of book material was new to me and surprisingly it wasn't just about details but about major characteristics and major plots. for example I remember  in the show I thought Stannis was a fanatic and yet in the books he seems more of an atheist! 

Yep, it was Stannis’ wife that was the fanatic.  He was pretty skeptical up to the point that the three kings died after Melisandre’s leech show.  That’s when he started to take the idea of sacrificing Edric Storm pretty seriously.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We know for a fact that they changed key elements to his story.  Not having Val, Young Griff, Old Griff, Arianne, Lady Stoneheart, Victarion, Aerion and killing off Barristan and Stannis prematurely, putting Sansa in the role of Jeyne Poole, ect. ect.  Hopefully you don't have some trust in those two bozos having faithfully pulled off George's vision.  

Sure, they changed some things, that doesn't mean Brandon is a more logical option for his father than Lyanna. There's no indication they had an incestuous relationship and Brandon does not fit the timeline in any case

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Speaking of the two bozos, show runners themselves have remained noncommital as to whether their reveal for Jon's father is the same as George's.  I'm almost fairly certain that they said that it might not be the same.. The only thing that they really spoiled is Jon's mother being Lyanna.

Has anyone actually asked them that, and did they actually say that? The reason they've been more explicit about Lyanna is because that was the question George asked them to hand them the show, but it doesn't mean they changed who his father is

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And no, it wasn't the internet that made the R + L = J a very likely possibility.  I started AGOT as soon as it came out in paperback, and while the internet existed it didn't have the same reach as it did today, and I was able to come to the R + L J conclusion before I finished the first book without peeking or even knowing about any message boards for this book.

Congrats, but a lot of people don't figure it out on a first read and it's undeniable that the Internet massively expanded its reach. For all the words in your post, I don't see you actually offer an explanation for Martin's comments plausibly being about any other parentage combination. Maybe 1% of the fanbase believes B + L why would he feel like it was something everyone was expecting?

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

ETA: and if the show's reveal was a matter of fact spoiler, than why does George remain so tight lipped when asked about Jon's father?  Why doesnt' he shrug and basically admit it like he's done regarding Lyanna being Jon's mom?

Does he? I'm unaware of people asking him all these things lately, and he's never explicitly said that Lyanna is Jon's mom, he just confirmed the story of how D&D won the rights to the show (they did explicitly say the mother was the same in the books in an interview with Jimmy Kimmel, but GRRM wasn't there).

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 10/13/2021 at 6:01 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

It is very difficult for ned stark to shut up all the people involved in the secret

Meh. I'm sure after they saw Ned murder William Dustin because he was going to tell the truth they got in line.

[Frey family reunion]

31 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Does he? I'm unaware of people asking him all these things lately, and he's never explicitly said that Lyanna is Jon's mom, he just confirmed the story of how D&D won the rights to the show (they did explicitly say the mother was the same in the books in an interview with Jimmy Kimmel, but GRRM wasn't there).

I’ve seen an interview where he kind of sort of concedes that they got their guess right about Lyanna.  At least that was my take on the interview.  I’ll try to go back and see if i can find what I’m thinking about.

Re: D & D, if memory serves it was a print interview where they indicated their reveal was not necessarily George’s reveal.  

Of course I’m doing what I hate other posters doing, because I’m basically going off my memory.  I’ll do a little research on both and see if I can locate the interviews I’m thinking about.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You do me the courtesy of looking into the wylla section. 

That was a funny one. 

Quote

And did you even consider the wylla theory, examine the evidences and all

So what is the evidence for Wylla then?
1. Robert believes it (though he never met Wylla himself)
2. Edric Dayne believes it (though he was born years after it all happened)
...
Do you have anything else?
Ned didn't deny it, or any other theory. He just refused to address it, same as other theories.

Have you examined these pieces of evidence yourself? 
What were your conclusions about these pieces of evidence?

I've given you a breakdown of Robert and Ned's conversation here already that clearly shows that nothing Ned said in that conversation indicated Wylla was Jon's mother.
I've written more detailed explanations about Edric before, but here I explain how Edric's evidence makes no sense in itself, but actually fits well with Robert's different belief and R+L=J. There is more in other places about Allyria - essentially the evidence suggests she is not much older than Edric and probably also speaking hearsay only, rather than things she actually witnessed or knew from first hand experience.

So what makes N+W=J so compelling?

 

Why does Ned refuse to say anything, shut down conversations with Cat and Robert, under N+W=J?

Why does Ned never tell Jon about Wylla under N+A=J?

Why is there so much Lyanna-focused imagery appearing throughout the books if N+W=J? Lyanna now has no relevance to the wider story other than as a footnote to the start of Robert's rebellion 15 years before the books. 

What is the relevance of the blue rose growing in a wall of ice to Dany, under N+W=J? Why are the Undying Ones showing her that?

What promises did Ned make to the dying Lyanna under N+W=J that cost him dearly or he broke?

[Daenerysthegreat]

4 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

 

Congrats, but a lot of people don't figure it out on a first read and it's undeniable that the Internet massively expanded its reach. For all the words in your post, I don't see you actually offer an explanation for Martin's comments plausibly being about any other parentage combination. Maybe 1% of the fanbase believes B + L why would he feel like it was something everyone was expecting?

 

I didn't pick it on any reread. I just first saw it about 3 months ago when I saw this forum. 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

 

Why is there so much Lyanna-focused imagery appearing throughout the books if N+W=J? Lyanna now has no relevance to the wider story other than as a footnote to the start of Robert's rebellion 15 years before the books. 

 

Lyanna is important, she appears in ned's mind. For ned, she is the proof that war will result in the loss of your loved ones, your innocent loved ones. So he strives to do anything to save joffrey, myrcella and tommen for their innocence. 

She doesn't appear much in the next two books but she does appear in cersei's pov. There she is the stark bitch who stole away cersei's beloved rhaegar