N + W = J

[corbon]

55 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Lyanna is important, she appears in ned's mind. For ned, she is the proof that war will result in the loss of your loved ones, your innocent loved ones. So he strives to do anything to save joffrey, myrcella and tommen for their innocence. 

Ok. 
And the rest of the questions?

55 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She doesn't appear much in the next two books but she does appear in cersei's pov. There she is the stark bitch who stole away cersei's beloved rhaegar

It seems to be a well established narrative across the board in Westeros that Rhaegar loved her and stole her. Barristan, Dany and Kevan Lannister all reference it.

You don't think she's the KotLT? (and if not, why put her in that story at all - as Meera said the Prince naming the wolf maid the QoLaB is a different, sadder story. Why didn't GRRM just have Ned being the one to support Howland in driving off the three squires?).
Why does she appear to be in Theon's dream?
Why does GRRM expend the effort to tell us about her horsemanship?

[Daenerysthegreat]

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

 

It seems to be a well established narrative across the board in Westeros that Rhaegar loved her and stole her. Barristan, Dany and Kevan Lannister all reference it.

You don't think she's the KotLT? (and if not, why put her in that story at all - as Meera said the Prince naming the wolf maid the QoLaB is a different, sadder story. Why didn't GRRM just have Ned being the one to support Howland in driving off the three squires?).
Why does she appear to be in Theon's dream?
Why does GRRM expend the effort to tell us about her horsemanship?

Im talking about how she appears in cersei's pov. In cersei's mind, what cersei thinks of lyanna

[corbon]

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Im talking about how she appears in cersei's pov. In cersei's mind, what cersei thinks of lyanna

Sure. And that makes sense for Cersei - she was supposed to marry Rhaegar and become queen, she thought. 
You said she hardly appears outside Bk1, but its more than just Cersei.

You don't have to keep replying. But you challenged others to consider yours and their theories, to examine the evidence. I have. Many times. And written about some of it for you and others. 
I'm challenging you to do the same. Back up your assertions with some analysis. Answer the questions that arise. Explain why the N+W=J is so 'compelling' for you and the evidence for R+L=J  is so 'little' and 'worthless'. Answer the hard questions about what fits and what doesn't, how motivations and character actions work and don't work.

Persuade us of your truth, rather than just demanding we accept your beliefs as true.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

Sure. And that makes sense for Cersei - she was supposed to marry Rhaegar and become queen, she thought. 
You said she hardly appears outside Bk1, but its more than just Cersei.

You don't have to keep replying. But you challenged others to consider yours and their theories, to examine the evidence. I have. Many times. And written about some of it for you and others. 
I'm challenging you to do the same. Back up your assertions with some analysis. Answer the questions that arise. Explain why the N+W=J is so 'compelling' for you and the evidence for R+L=J  is so 'little' and 'worthless'. Answer the hard questions about what fits and what doesn't, how motivations and character actions work and don't work.

Persuade us of your truth, rather than just demanding we accept your beliefs as true.

I am replying while you're asking me in the middle of the day. People work during the day you know. 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

So what makes N+W=J so compelling?

Its told by ned in the first book. 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

 

 

Why does Ned refuse to say anything, shut down conversations with Cat and Robert, under N+W=J?

 

Because it's a matter of shame for him. I have told this before. He doesn't want to face his past. 

I'll answer the later in the evening

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I am replying while you're asking me in the middle of the day. People work during the day you know. 

Sure thing. We all have different times. Its not the middle of the day here.

3 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Its told by ned in the first book. 

No, it isn't. As I very carefully and thoroughly broke down for you., its told by Robert. Ned did not, in any way, say or agree that Wylla was Jon's mother.

 

[Daenerysthegreat]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Sure thing. We all have different times. Its not the middle of the day here.

No, it isn't. As I very carefully and thoroughly broke down for you., its told by Robert. Ned did not, in any way, say or agree that Wylla was Jon's mother.

 

No it isnt

You don't use the spider to find out what your best friend is doing. Normal people do that. It's very likely ned told the usurper who Jon's mother was soon after returning to kings landing. 

And I think so people are over complicating the question. It was not different questions about different women. It concerned the same woman. The usurper asked ned who was his lover and his bastards mother and ned said wylla. Since we are in neds head we know he isn't lying. 

I suspect that even if I write a 1000 posts about it, you still won't believe me since you are asking me to explain the same things multiple times

[Daeron the Daring]

8 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

It was not different questions about different women. It concerned the same woman. The usurper asked ned who was his lover and his bastards mother and ned said wylla. Since we are in neds head we know he isn't lying. 

I agree with you that Ned said Wylla is Jon's mother to Robert. To the questions he asked, the answer was one. One name. Robert even specifically said "the woman who made Ned Stark forget his oath" or something, which clearly indicates he thinks of a single woman. If Ned was answering only one of those questions, he simply admitted on cheating on Catelyn with two separate women: with Wylla, and with another one, Jon's mother. Ned would've never taken up the blame of cheating on his wife twice with two different women unless it wasn't the case. 

Not that it changes anything, Jon's mother is confirmed to be Lyanna. That Ned told his best friend a name means nothing. He could've played his keeping it all secret game against others, but not with Robert,. That would've been an insult to him coming from such a good friend Ned supposedly was to him. That's why I think he said the name and played the role of the ashamed. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

16 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

 

Not that it changes anything, Jon's mother is confirmed to be Lyanna. That Ned told his best friend a name means nothing. He could've played his keeping it all secret game against others, but not with Robert,. That would've been an insult to him coming from such a good friend Ned supposedly was to him. That's why I think he said the name and played the role of the ashamed. 

Where is it confirmed that Jon's mother was lyanna? it's never confirmed in the books. So don't say it's confirmed

Jon was a great commander and all of the nights watch. His arc at start was depended on the fact that he was neds bastard son. To do a 180 degree of that is bad writing. Plus he's dead

[EggBlue]

10 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Plus he's dead

if "he's dead" , what difference does it make who his mother is? have it your way... say Wylla's his mother and wait till the next book

[Daeron the Daring]

17 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Where is it confirmed that Jon's mother was lyanna? it's never confirmed in the books. So don't say it's confirmed

You must have been arguing so much you don't remember any. No wonder you still hold on. I don't have any much to say. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

59 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You must have been arguing so much you don't remember any. No wonder you still hold on. I don't have any much to say. 

So please do me the favor and remind me where it's written. 

[LynnS]

Hmmm.  My sense of this conversation with Robert has been that Ned is obfuscating and telling a half-truth.  That the nurse-maid or milk-mother is Jon's 'mother'.  Something that can be verified, if anyone insists on asking.  Something that Robert can believe rather than the truth itself. 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

So please do me the favor and remind me where it's written. 

Here it is, when George was asked if DnD answered correctly regarding who Jon's mother is. 

Quote

I:Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.

GRRM:I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.

I:Did they get it right?

GRRM:They answered correctly.

After this, (since you don't remember I gues it's worth writing it down) you started insisting that either George must have lied, DnD must have lied, George must have asked DnD not to reveal who Jon's mother is, among other stupid suggestions, since RLJ can't be true. It just can't, only because you don't want it. Don't you think you're biased a little bit? 

People often go against almost undoubtable things on this forum, creating their own cracpot or tinfoil ideas. Some because they want to be pioneers and  who don't follow the 'herd', others because they don't want certain things to happen. I guess it's the latter with you. You're unable to accept that there might be other Targaryens beside Daenerys or something, or that there are other justified claims to the Iron Throne beside Daenerys'. The "Why Stannis has no claim to the IT" or this thread are perfect example to that. Or that you constantly call Robert the "usurper", etc...

[Daenerysthegreat]

10 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Here it is, when George was asked if DnD answered correctly regarding who Jon's mother is. 

After this, (since you don't remember I gues it's worth writing it down) you started insisting that either George must have lied, DnD must have lied, George must have asked DnD not to reveal who Jon's mother is, among other stupid suggestions, since RLJ can't be true. It just can't, only because you don't want it. Don't you think you're biased a little bit? 

People often go against almost undoubtable things on this forum, creating their own cracpot or tinfoil ideas. Some because they want to be pioneers and  who don't follow the 'herd', others because they don't want certain things to happen. I guess it's the latter with you. You're unable to accept that there might be other Targaryens beside Daenerys or something, or that there are other justified claims to the Iron Throne beside Daenerys'. The "Why Stannis has no claim to the IT" or this thread are perfect example to that. Or that you constantly call Robert the "usurper", etc...

I was asking where in the books it's written, in the books you know

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Here it is, when George was asked if DnD answered correctly regarding who Jon's mother is. 

After this, (since you don't remember I gues it's worth writing it down) you started insisting that either George must have lied, DnD must have lied, George must have asked DnD not to reveal who Jon's mother is, among other stupid suggestions, since RLJ can't be true. It just can't, only because you don't want it. Don't you think you're biased a little bit? 

People often go against almost undoubtable things on this forum, creating their own cracpot or tinfoil ideas. Some because they want to be pioneers and  who don't follow the 'herd', others because they don't want certain things to happen. I guess it's the latter with you. You're unable to accept that there might be other Targaryens beside Daenerys or something, or that there are other justified claims to the Iron Throne beside Daenerys'. The "Why Stannis has no claim to the IT" or this thread are perfect example to that. Or that you constantly call Robert the "usurper", etc...

If you want to nitpick, you can argue that when GRRM says their answer was “correct” he meant that this was the answer he wanted to hear to give them the job.  In other words that they didn’t just do a shallow read of the story, but were able to piece together some subtle (?) clues that George placed in the story.  

While I feel fairly confident about Lyanna being Jon’s mother, I would note that George has stated on one of his audio commentaries for the show, that when he set out to write the story, he wanted to write it with a twist that would surprise a reader like his mother.  His mother, George explained, would always figure out the twists in the Twilight Zones they would watch together,  before the show revealed them.  He wanted to be able to to make a twist that would surprise even her.

My guess is that George’s mother would probably have pieced together the clues he’s laying out concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So the question is what is George’s super secret hidden twist that would even fool his mom?

[Daenerysthegreat]

14 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Here it is, when George was asked if DnD answered correctly regarding who Jon's mother is. 

After this, (since you don't remember I gues it's worth writing it down) you started insisting that either George must have lied, DnD must have lied, George must have asked DnD not to reveal who Jon's mother is, among other stupid suggestions, since RLJ can't be true. It just can't, only because you don't want it. Don't you think you're biased a little bit? 

Aren't you biased since you don't believe in anything except r + l = j. 

I wrote a lot of posts explaining it but I don't think you ever cared to read them because you just can't except alternatives right. 

 

16 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

 

People often go against almost undoubtable things on this forum, creating their own cracpot or tinfoil ideas. Some because they want to be pioneers and  who don't follow the 'herd', others because they don't want certain things to happen. I guess it's the latter with you. You're unable to accept that there might be other Targaryens beside Daenerys or something, or that there are other justified claims to the Iron Throne beside Daenerys'. The "Why Stannis has no claim to the IT" or this thread are perfect example to that. Or that you constantly call Robert the "usurper", etc...

I think aegon is daenerys's nephew and I have said it multiple times. How many times do I have to say a thing for you to understand it. Oh you can't right

I believe tommen has a claim to the iron Throne. 

The usurper is a usurper there is no doubt in that

Really? You can't counter argue so you go personal. This shows your immaturity to me.

For your kind information, I'm only on this forum till I finish my re read. That was the plan since I first joined the forummBecause I love reading and discussing theories like these. After I'm gone have a hate thread about me. But till I'm there you will speak to me with respect

[Daenerysthegreat]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you want to nitpick, you can argue that when GRRM says their answer was “correct” he meant that this was the answer he wanted to hear to give them the job.  In other words that they didn’t just do a shallow read of the story, but were able to piece together some subtle (?) clues that George placed in the story.  

While I feel fairly confident about Lyanna being Jon’s mother, I would note that George has stated on one of his audio commentaries for the show, that when he set out to write the story, he wanted to write it with a twist that would surprise a reader like his mother.  His mother, George explained, would always figure out the twists in the Twilight Zones they would watch together,  before the show revealed them.  He wanted to be able to to make a twist that would surprise even her.

My guess is that George’s mother would probably have pieced together the clues he’s laying out concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So the question is what is George’s super secret hidden twist that would even fool his mom?

This is how you have a discussion @Daeron the Daring you don't launch personal attacks on people

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

12 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I didn't pick it on any reread. I just first saw it about 3 months ago when I saw this forum. 

 

Good for you, supports the point I was making in my discussion with FFR

12 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Lyanna is important, she appears in ned's mind. For ned, she is the proof that war will result in the loss of your loved ones, your innocent loved ones. So he strives to do anything to save joffrey, myrcella and tommen for their innocence. 

 

Why does he think of her so much more than his other dead family and friends? Why is he constantly haunted by her asking him to promise her something, what was that promise about? Why does he describe her as being in a "bed of blood?" Why were 3 KG with her? Why does Daenerys have a vision of a blue rose (something repeatedly associated with Lyanna and specifically the crown of blue roses Rhaegar gave her) growing at a wall of ice?

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Aren't you biased since you don't believe in anything except r + l = j. 

No. Simply because that is the most possible variation. By far. Based on all the hints we got, not on personal preferences. 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I wrote a lot of posts explaining it but I don't think you ever cared to read them because you just can't except alternatives right. 

I do read what I'm answering to, and I read the whole discussion (everyone's comment) when I'm invested in what others might have to say. I read every comment on this thread. 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I think aegon is daenerys's nephew and I have said it multiple times. How many times do I have to say a thing for you to understand it. Oh you can't right

I don't know where was I talking about (f)Aegon.  I mentioned, Stannis, Robert and Jon, and explicitly did not mention Aegon/Young Griff. 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Really? You can't counter argue so you go personal. This shows your immaturity to me.

For your kind information, I'm only on this forum till I finish my re read. That was the plan since I first joined the forummBecause I love reading and discussing theories like these. After I'm gone have a hate thread about me. But till I'm there you will speak to me with respect

I can't counterargue? Okay, that must be true since you said it. 

Noone has been disrespectful towards you yet. People are free to disagree with you, they're free to tell their opinion about your opinion. I am free to tell my opinion, that your theories are crackpot. You shouldn't feel offended by that. If you do, that's your problem but I did not attack your persona, nor did I saw anyone else (I might have missed if someone did). 

We don't hate you for your opinion, we won't start hate threads when/if you're gone. We don't hate you at all. If you feel offended by criticism towards your theories/ideas, I can't help you but tell not to. I feel like everyone, including me, gave you the respect you deserve, and that people's own opinion towards something that's not you doesn't disrespect you. I think I am allowed to tell that you're biased or not when you make an argument. That's just looking for the rationality of your idea, which isn't your persona. And that you posted this idea, which is very controversial/not well received by majority doesn't mean you have to dig your grave or anything. 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you want to nitpick, you can argue that when GRRM says their answer was “correct” he meant that this was the answer he wanted to hear to give them the job.  In other words that they didn’t just do a shallow read of the story, but were able to piece together some subtle (?) clues that George placed in the story.  

While I feel fairly confident about Lyanna being Jon’s mother, I would note that George has stated on one of his audio commentaries for the show, that when he set out to write the story, he wanted to write it with a twist that would surprise a reader like his mother.  His mother, George explained, would always figure out the twists in the Twilight Zones they would watch together,  before the show revealed them.  He wanted to be able to to make a twist that would surprise even her.

My guess is that George’s mother would probably have pieced together the clues he’s laying out concerning Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So the question is what is George’s super secret hidden twist that would even fool his mom?

Well, that George may have tried to write a twist that noone would be able to guess doesn't mean he does succeed. 

But then, RLJ isn't that big of a deal. I think it was you who said you put it together for the first time you read the books. However, I'm fairly confident that George has twists held up that we would've never guessed or something like that. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be invested in the story.