N + W = J

[Jaenara Belarys]

"Are you in need of assistance, Lady Galadriel?"

 

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I wrote a lot of posts explaining it but I don't think you ever cared to read them because you just can't except alternatives right. 

 

We also wrote a million posts giving you alternatives, but I don't think you ever cared to read them because you can't accept anybody else having a claim to the IT. 

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Really? You can't counter argue so you go personal. This shows your immaturity to me.

 

I haven't been on this forum half as long as some people, but believe me this is not that bad as compared to a thread I saw once that had simply broken down into an all out war of insults. Besides, it's not going personal if it's true. And it's rich that you're the one accusing people of being immature. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hmmm.  My sense of this conversation with Robert has been that Ned is obfuscating and telling a half-truth.  That the nurse-maid or milk-mother is Jon's 'mother'.  Something that can be verified, if anyone insists on asking.  Something that Robert can believe rather than the truth itself. 

This is the impression I got from the Wylla exchange between Ned and Robert. Robert drew his own conclusion at some point and Ned just let him run with it. That Ned refused to talk about it in any detail probably only fed into Robert's belief that it was true. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

13 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

This is the impression I got from the Wylla exchange between Ned and Robert. Robert drew his own conclusion at some point and Ned just let him run with it. That Ned refused to talk about it in any detail probably only fed into Robert's belief that it was true. 

No

Ned was asked the answer, it was a subjective question not an objective one

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

This is the impression I got from the Wylla exchange between Ned and Robert. Robert drew his own conclusion at some point and Ned just let him run with it. That Ned refused to talk about it in any detail probably only fed into Robert's belief that it was true. 

There is not enough for me to say it can be proven one way or the other.  When Catelyn questions him about it; he gets angrier than she's ever known and he shuts it down hard.  She has never heard of a common girl named Wylla and why wouldn't he just tell her if that was the case.  All he says is that Jon is his blood and that's all she needs to know.

He can't really take that same tack with the king, so he has to tell him something, although he still gets testy about it and Robert lets it go.

With Cersei, he doesn't answer at all.  But when she asks him if he loves his children; he doesn't include Jon as one on his natural children in his private thoughts.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

This has always been a sticking point for me.

[Daenerysthegreat]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is not enough for me to say it can be proven one way or the other.  When Catelyn questions him about it; he gets angrier than she's ever known and he shuts it down hard.  She has never heard of a common girl named Wylla and why wouldn't he just tell her if that was the case.  All he says is that Jon is his blood and that's all she needs to know.

He can't really take that same tack with the king, so he has to tell him something, although he still gets testy about it and Robert lets it go.

With Cersei, he doesn't answer at all.  But when she asks him if he loves his children; he doesn't include Jon as one on his natural children in his private thoughts.

 

Its because he's ashamed to speak of her. Ned doesn't want to remember her. As you said ned can't lie to a superior so he tells who wylla was with cool courtesy. 

I think the fact that he doesn't include jon is due to the fact that jon is now in the night's Watch, he doesn't think of benjen either. 

 

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Its because he's ashamed to speak of her. Ned doesn't want to remember her. As you said ned can't lie to a superior so he tells who wylla was with cool courtesy. 

I think the fact that he doesn't include jon is due to the fact that jon is now in the night's Watch, he doesn't think of benjen either. 

 

 

Leaving aside that Benjen is not one of Ned's offspring; the difference of opinion here is that you think Ned is telling the truth and I think he is fudging the truth.   I'm not sure that we can reach agreement or persuade each other otherwise, so I will leave it there..

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Leaving aside that Benjen is not one of Ned's offspring; the difference of opinion here is that you think Ned is telling the truth and I think he is fudging the truth.   I'm not sure that we can reach agreement or persuade each other otherwise, so I will leave it there.. 

Youre right

[corbon]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:26 PM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Lyanna is important, she appears in ned's mind. For ned, she is the proof that war will result in the loss of your loved ones, your innocent loved ones.

Lyanna was lost before the war, and died after the war. And wasn't killed by a warrior, or as a warrior. So how does that work?

On 10/15/2021 at 12:37 PM, corbon said:

So what makes N+W=J so compelling?

Why does Ned refuse to say anything, shut down conversations with Cat and Robert, under N+W=J?   <partial answer given, discussed elsewhere>

Why does Ned never tell Jon about Wylla under N+A=J?

Why is there so much Lyanna-focused imagery appearing throughout the books if N+W=J? Lyanna now has no relevance to the wider story other than as a footnote to the start of Robert's rebellion 15 years before the books. 

What is the relevance of the blue rose growing in a wall of ice to Dany, under N+W=J? Why are the Undying Ones showing her that?

What promises did Ned make to the dying Lyanna under N+W=J that cost him dearly or he broke?

 

On 10/15/2021 at 4:56 PM, corbon said:

You don't think she's the KotLT? (and if not, why put her in that story at all - as Meera said the Prince naming the wolf maid the QoLaB is a different, sadder story. Why didn't GRRM just have Ned being the one to support Howland in driving off the three squires?).
Why does she appear to be in Theon's dream?
Why does GRRM expend the effort to tell us about her horsemanship?

 

On 10/15/2021 at 5:31 PM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Because it's a matter of shame for him. I have told this before. He doesn't want to face his past. 

Except we see inside Ned's head, and the only time there is any shame is when he knows he's a dead man and will never seen Jon again to tell him, and Ned's own thought to absolve that shame is to sit and talk with Jon. CLearly teh shame is that he never told Jon about his mother, not the act f making Jon.

Quote

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. 

Plus, Cat herself tells us that making a bastard while off at war away from his family was no shame. Bring the bastard home though... 

Quote

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

A one line reply that is countered in two separate ways by the text, and is not consistently adhered to by Ned even in your argument, does not a satisfactory argument make.

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

You don't use the spider to find out what your best friend is doing. Normal people do that.

Whats normal? This is the King. And he has no way of communicating with Ned until Ned contacts him.

Its The Spider's job to inform the King what is happening in his kingdom. And the number 2 or 3 man in the kingdom, the King's closest friend, reappearing after mysteriously riding off for parts unkown, is certainly an important thing for the King to be informed of.

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

It's very likely ned told the usurper who Jon's mother was soon after returning to kings landing. 

Why? 
Why did Ned tell him the one thing Ned gets angry and shuts down conversations about, and why won't he even tell Robert a second time. Why did Ned not tell Robert what she looked like even. Thats far more important to Robert than anything else about her!

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

And I think so people are over complicating the question. It was not different questions about different women. It concerned the same woman. 

No one suggested it was different questions about different women. No wonder you can't accept a simple analytical breakdown if you can't even tell that.

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

The usurper asked ned who was his lover and his bastards mother and ned said wylla.

No he did not. The Usurper asked Ned what the name of was of a woman. The Usurper clarified that the woman was, according to the Usurper;
 - that common girl of yours
 - you told me (her name) once
 - you know the one I mean
 - your bastard's mother
and later
 - you never told me what she looked like...

Ned gave one answer. A name. No hint of agreement with anything, no 'yes', no 'she was', nothing. Just a name. Conversation closed. 

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Since we are in neds head we know he isn't lying. 

Agreed. But pay attention to precisely who says what.
Its not complicated. This is all you have to do.  Who said what? 

Ned never agrees with anything Robert says. There is no hint of affirmation from Ned in any way that we know of, not even in body language. He merely supplies the name of the woman Robert is asking about and closes the conversation.

On 10/16/2021 at 12:02 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

I suspect that even if I write a 1000 posts about it, you still won't believe me since you are asking me to explain the same things multiple times

Well, you are on the way. !2 posts in this thread since I challenged you to answer some questions, and you've provided a weak, easily textually refuted one line answer to one of the least important of the questions.

On 10/16/2021 at 3:38 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

I wrote a lot of posts explaining it

Declaring is not explaining.

You asked people to consider your theory, and examine the evidence. 
Will you do the same?

On 10/16/2021 at 3:38 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

But till I'm there you will speak to me with respect

I'm a little curious about how you think respect works. 
Does this go both ways? Do you have to respect others?
Do you have to keep maintaining the respect of others, or is it just given once-and-forever no matter what you say or do? 

IMO everyone starts with a baseline of courtesy and respect, what happens after that depends on them.
Arguments though, get treated on their merits. There is no baseline of equal respect for every argument.

 

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Lyanna was lost before the war, and died after the war. And wasn't killed by a warrior, or as a warrior. So how does that work?

I said innocent lives. Warriors aren't innocent. She wasn't supposed to die in the war, she was supposed to be safe but she still died. 

Though I don't think I can ever persuade you or you can persuade me. Plus I don't want to write essay like posts so I'll leave it there

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:33 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve seen an interview where he kind of sort of concedes that they got their guess right about Lyanna.  At least that was my take on the interview.  I’ll try to go back and see if i can find what I’m thinking about.

ROLLING STONE:  Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.

GRRM:  I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.

ROLLING STONE:  Did they get it right?

GRRM:  They answered correctly.

George R.R. Martin: The Complete Rolling Stone Interview - Rolling Stone

GRRM does not identify the answer they gave. 

Also, if I may be forgiven for stretching a bit further, the context was seeing if they had read the text, and not if they had read his mind.  It is conceivable that the "correct" answer, in terms of who the text identifies as Jon's mother, is either Ashara or Wylla, and the fact that both may be red herrings for some planned surprise is beside the point.  Note that he does not say "yes", making me wonder whether "They answered correctly" means the same thing as "They got it right."

I'm inclined to suspect my last point is a bit too much of a stretch, though I'm not sure.  But I do recall, in another thread, someone lecturing me that GRRM never gives away spoilers, and hence that anything he says in interviews must be construed as a non-answer.  The above paragraph seems less of a stretch than some of the hijinks I've seen to avoid acknowledging any significance to GRRM's answer on the lemongate question.

Also, is there not some rule against posting show spoilers in the book forums?   Maybe all is fair when it comes to stamping out heretical theories.

Note however that I am leaning in favor of some version of R+L=J.

[Daeron the Daring]

10 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm inclined to suspect my last point is a bit too much of a stretch, though I'm not sure.  But I do recall, in another thread, someone lecturing me that GRRM never gives away spoilers, and hence that anything he says in interviews must be construed as a non-answer.  The above paragraph seems less of a stretch than some of the hijinks I've seen to avoid acknowledging any significance to GRRM's answer on the lemongate question.

When George said this, he was kind of confident he'll release TWOW before the show catches up. It wasn't a spoiler back then. It became one, as other things as well, most notably the plot twists George agreed to tell DnD. 

Edit:Altough I imagine he would've said nothing had he known he won't be able to release TWOW not only before the entire series ends, but neither two and a half years later. 

[Mister Smikes]

40 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When George said this, he was kind of confident he'll release TWOW before the show catches up. It wasn't a spoiler back then.

He was promoting the show, by implying (without actually saying) that she showrunners knew his secrets.  If he did not intend to give anything away, then maybe he gave nothing away.

40 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It became one, as other things as well, most notably the plot twists George agreed to tell DnD. 

I don't know what plot twists George agreed to tell DnD.  I haven't seen the contract.  I bet, however, that the contract did require him to promote the show.  In any event, whatever he did tell them, they could have changed.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:54 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Noone has been disrespectful towards you yet.

That's not true at all.

Quote

People are free to disagree with you,

@Frey family reunion and a few others have disagreed with her in a respectful manner.  Many others, not so much.

Quote

 I did not attack your persona, nor did I saw anyone else (I might have missed if someone did). 

You missed quite a few people, I think.

Quote

I think I am allowed to tell that you're biased or not when you make an argument.

It's probably not against the mod rules, but it is ad hominem.  

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's not true at all.

We can all agree you have a very unusual interpretation of the word "disrespectful". 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

@Frey family reunion and a few others have disagreed with her in a respectful manner

Judging a theory isn't disrespectful in any ways. People can of course hold it as grievances, but that's pretty much their own problem since they devided to publicly talk about something, especially where people talk about those kind of things. 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

You missed quite a few people, I think.

As I said, I might have. I wrote it down. Altough I would not rely on your words.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

It's probably not against the mod rules, but it is ad hominem.

You should probably learn to accept criticism. I felt like the person I wrote my comment to had grown deterred/cowed because of the many backlashes she received, so I tried to reason with her and be supportive to her as well. Not sure what your problem is with me then, unless you think I was disreslectful to her. If that's the case, you should write it down instead of circling around it for another few replies. 

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

We can all agree you have a very unusual interpretation of the word "disrespectful". 

No at all.  People have been (relatively) disrespectful towards her.  Telling her that no-one has done this is just gaslighting.

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Judging a theory isn't disrespectful in any ways.

But the ad-hominem attacks are.  And justified disrespect (if that's what you are claiming) is still disrespect.  

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

People can of course hold it as grievances, but that's pretty much their own problem since they devided to publicly talk about something, especially where people talk about those kind of things. 

I'm not saying she should hold anything as a grievance.  All I said is that it is not true that nobody disrespected her.

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

As I said, I might have. I wrote it down. Altough I would not rely on your words.

Well, let's see.  The folks who wrote "haha" and "sad" emojis on her posts probably did not mean it in a good way.   The "banging head against the wall" emoji did not seem like respectful disagreement.  Attacking her as a "Jon hater" and a "Stark hater", which several people did, was both ad-hominem and disrespectful.   And you "liked" two of those ad-hominem posts, which was disrespectful on your part.  One person called her a "lost cause"; and went on to say how "amusing" it was to watch the "pile on" against her.

Which you all have every right to do.  Social media pirhannas do what they do, and who can stop them?  I'm not accusing you of violating terms of service or anything.  But you said that nobody had disrespectful of her, and that was absurd gaslighting.  

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You should probably learn to accept criticism.

Why are you trying to make this about me?  

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I felt like the person I wrote my comment to had grown deterred/cowed because of the many backlashes she received,

Good job.  Mission accomplished.  You must feel proud.

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

so I tried to reason with her

Is that what you call it?

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

and be supportive to her as well.

Compared to what?

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not sure what your problem is with me then, unless you think I was disreslectful to her.

You were.  You hit "like" on two posts whose only content was personal attack.  And then you blatantly gaslighted her by saying no-one was disrespecting her

[Lord Lannister]

Maybe we should take a deep breath and get back to discussing the topic and what we think about it rather than what we think of each other.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Now this is getting interesting.........butler, bring some popcorn!

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, let's see.  The folks who wrote "haha" and "sad" emojis on her posts probably did not mean it in a good way.   The "banging head against the wall" emoji did not seem like respectful disagreement

Are people not supposed to use emojis on posts like that? Furthermore, the "banging head against the wall" is an apt way to describe this thread, considering people will post good evidence against, and she'll simply disagree and rehash the same old point. 

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

No at all.  People have been (relatively) disrespectful towards her.  Telling her that no-one has done this is just gaslighting.

If someone was calling her something offensive, I can understand criticizing that. But when we post a million times with better evidence against her arguments, she simply brushes it off. That gets on people's nerves after a while. 

[Mister Smikes]

17 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Are people not supposed to use emojis on posts like that?

I never said you could not be disrespectful.  

17 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

If someone was calling her something offensive, I can understand criticizing that.

I was criticizing gaslighting her by telling her nobody had been disrespectful.

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Maybe we should take a deep breath and get back to discussing the topic and what we think about it rather than what we think of each other.

Okay.  To my knowledge, nobody has mentioned the fisherman's daughter from the Davos chapter.  Who, for all we know, may have been named Wylla.

This encounter would have been before his marriage to Catelyn.  However, it would have been after the death of Brandon, and his betrothal to Catelyn may have been a done deal at that time.  So this is still a reasonable fit with the idea that the relationship dishonored Catelyn.

Also, for the record, I agree with @Daenerysthegreat tells King Robert, in effect, that Wylla was Jon Snow's mother. To read it in any other way is to separate the answer from the question.  I'm not ruling out Ned being deceptive, but that is in effect what he says.

[Daenerysthegreat]

6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

 

 

You should probably learn to accept criticism. I felt like the person I wrote my comment to had grown deterred/cowed because of the many backlashes she received, so I tried to reason with her and be supportive to her as well. Not sure what your problem is with me then, unless you think I was disreslectful to her. If that's the case, you should write it down instead of circling around it for another few replies. 

 I am not cowed or deterred by anything. I am just tired or arguing. Plus it's kind of useless to argue if the person on the other side doesn't even consider the thing. And it does get tiring if you argue a lot. 

 

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm entirely sick of arguing with @Daenerysthegreat, so I suggest we simply ask @Ran to lock the thread. It's not productive anymore. 

 

I'm sick of arguing with you. And I want r + l = j thread locked since it is also not productive anymore. 

All in all I am not arguing on this any further. My next argument for this will be it's confirmation in the winds of winter