N + W = J

[Mister Smikes]

36 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its a question. What does HR know about that means he can't be a POV character.

For purposes of this thread, the only necessary answer is that Howland's secrets, whatever they are, need not have anything to do with Ned and Wylla being the parents of Jon Snow.  Though I cannot rule out Wylla being at the TOJ either, nor can I rule out Howland knowing something about her.

[Mister Smikes]

38 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Ok shoot. I don’t really see any other plausible theory except for maybe dany=R+L which doesn’t fit timeline.

R+L = D fits timeline fine.  It may not fit those timelines built around R+L=J, but that is circular.  R+L = J (in its standard form that assumes Jon was the baby born in the bed of blood at the time of the TOJ incident) does not fit timeline, or at least, fits it poorly, based on what we know.  

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

R+L = D fits timeline fine.  It may not fit those timelines built around R+L=J, but that is circular.  R+L = J (in its standard form that assumes Jon was the baby born in the bed of blood at the time of the TOJ incident) does not fit timeline, or at least, fits it poorly, based on what we know.  

No, the Daenerys timeline.

[Mister Smikes]

1 minute ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

No, the Daenerys timeline.

I'm not going to try to guess what you mean.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Just now, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not going to try to guess what you mean.

Quote

Daenerys is the youngest child of King Aerys II Targaryen and his sister-wife, Queen Rhaella. Daenerys was conceived during the last month of Robert's Rebellion, the war which ended House Targaryen's reign over the Seven Kingdoms. Shortly thereafter, her mother was sent with the young prince Viserys to the family ancestral seat of Dragonstone to escape the rebel army which was marching towards King's Landing. Daenerys was born nine months after their flight, while a great storm raged above Dragonstone, sinking what remained of the Targaryen fleet; for this reason she is known as "Daenerys Stormborn".^[1] Her mother died in labor,^[1] but not before naming her.^[39]

The war had been lost shortly after Rhaella had fled the city, after which Robert I Baratheon had claimed the throne. With Aerys, his eldest son Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's young children Rhaenys and Aegon dead, Daenerys and her older brother Viserys were the only known living Targaryen heirs. As Viserys had been crowned king on Dragonstone by their mother before her death,^[40] Daenerys received the title "Princess of Dragonstone" as Viserys's heir.^[1] Robert's brother, Stannis, had built a new fleet for the Baratheon's, and was planning to assault Dragonstone. With the Targaryen fleet destroyed by the storm during which Daenerys had been born, the garrison at Dragonstone planned to sell the Targaryen children to Robert. However, before they could act on this plan, Ser Willem Darry and several other loyal retainers rescued the children and smuggled them into exile, sailing to the Free City of Braavos. There, they lived for years in a house with a red door, where Daenerys had her own room, and a lemon tree underneath her window. Willem was old and sickly, but Daenerys remembers that he always treated her kindly.^[1] When Daenerys was five years old, Willem fell sick and slowly wasted away.^[41] After his death, the servants he had hired stole all they could.^[1] The young Targaryens were put out of the house a while after. 

Quote

At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Lord Eddard Stark and six of his companions (Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell) approached the tower. They found it guarded by three members of the Kingsguard (Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower). Eddard and Howland were the only survivors of the resulting battle. Eddard had the tower torn down to build cairns for the eight deceased.^[1]

According to a semi-canon source, Lyanna Stark was found dying inside the tower by her brother, Eddard, after the fight.^[6]

 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Just now, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

 

Rhaella was already off the island by the time Eddard arrived at the TOJ. Plus, there were several witnesses to Daenerys's birth including Viserys himself who was 8 years old and probably has a good memory of Dragonstone. Plus, we have proof that the garrison of Dragonstone was planning to betray Daenerys and Viserys over to Stannis.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

this is pretty late

It is late, but the effort is appreciated. 

This is the last post of mine on this thread, so.....I'm out. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Just now, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Rhaella was already off the island by the time Eddard arrived at the TOJ. Plus, there were several witnesses to Daenerys's birth including Viserys himself who was 8 years old and probably has a good memory of Dragonstone. Plus, we have proof that the garrison of Dragonstone was planning to betray Daenerys and Viserys over to Stannis.

 

Quote

and the garrison of Dragonstone was prepared to turn Viserys and his sister over to him, but Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men smuggled the children to the Braavosian coast.

 

[Mister Smikes]

5 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

 

Your objections do not address the actual theory.   I thought we were discussing something simple like the timing of the birth.  But if I have to explain the whole theory, then R+L=D is a topic for another thread.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It is late, but the effort is appreciated. 

This is the last post of mine on this thread, so.....I'm out. 

Your arguments were pretty valid...based on evidence... 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Your objections do not address the actual theory.   I thought we were discussing something simple like the timing of the birth.  But if I have to explain the whole theory, then R+L=D is a topic for another thread.

Alright, do you want to make it or should I?

[Mister Smikes]

8 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Alright, do you want to make it or should I?

I'm in no hurry to make one at the moment.  And I obviously can't stop you.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

13 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Technically, neither did Tywin.  But I don't know what Robert said or did that convinced Tywin that Robert would be happy to see the corpses of 2 murdered children.  Henry II allowed himself to be flogged for encouraging the murder of Archbishop Thomas, while claiming he never meant anyone to act on his words.  But when the children's corpses were presented before him, Robert was more or less pleased.  I doubt Tywin was completely in the dark in anticipating such a response.

Tywin gave the order, Robert didn't. 

13 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

If you don't have an actual point to make, just agree to disagree and move on.   

I have already made my point.

13 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Thats ironic. 

Yes coming from you it is.

[Daenerysthegreat]

7 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Yes coming from you it is.

You are the one who can't even consider the possibility that your beloved r+ l=j might nit be true

[WhatAnArtist!]

Ironically, at this point it'd actually be a pretty massive and surprising twist if Ned and Wylla were indeed Jon's parents. I can't think of anything else that would be as monumental a troll from Martin if he did that. It'd be pretty funny, and I'd personally prefer it. I prefer the hero of the story to just be a regular guy, not some super special child of destiny born for a prophecy read by a legendary dragon prince. Screw that.

[Daeron the Daring]

13 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

this is pretty late but I do believe @Daenerysthegreatis invalidating a lot of points made by @Daeron the Daring 

The single point I personally made and always talked about was that N+W can't be J, since Lyanna is Jon's mother. I think I explained very well why that is the case, and I personally never argued with anyone about anything else(other people had done it already, why would I do it too?) when it comes to theories and the like. I think the single point I made was pretty stable (and I still think it's valid), in everything else I agreed with @Daenerysthegreat (like that Ned actually said Robert the name Wylla because he wanted him to believe that. Saying out loud a name that doesn't have to do anything with Jon Snow would mean Ned Stark cheated on his wife at least twice, with two separate woman, which he didn't have to take up on himself) or didn't talk about it in case I didn't. 

Edit:Mostly because I didn't have to. In case someone accepts that Jon's mother is Lyanna, everything else is kind of invalid. Everything else being what Ned said. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The single point I personally made and always talked about was that N+W can't be J, since Lyanna is Jon's mother. I think I explained very well why that is the case, and i personally never argued with anyone about anything else (other people had done it already, why would I do it too?). I think the single point I made was pretty stable, in everything else I agreed with @Daenerysthegreat (like that Ned actually said Robert the name Wylla because he wanted him to believe that. Saying out loud a name that doesn't have to do anything with Jon Snow would mean Ned Stark cheated on his wife at least twice, with two separate woman, which he didn't have to take up on himself) or didn't talk about it in case I didn't. 

Two, when did I say two? 

[Daeron the Daring]

5 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Two, when did I say two? 

It's not about that. You've been arguing with several people here about wether Ned told Jon's mother's name or not (wether the person is his mother or not). The point I made was that he said a name, and if that name doesn't refer to the woman he has a bastard with (you can see many people argue beside that), then it refers to a second one with who he cheated on Catelyn. These users claim that Ned didn't say Wylla was Jon's mother. In case that's true, Wylla would be another woman in Ned's life, beside the one he has a bastard with, Jon. 

You never said there was two. Neither did I. I just showed what would it mean if the people who argue against this would be right. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

He's already been specific enough -"that one time". That's completely narrows it down already.
Robert is adding qualifiers because he's meandering all over the conversation, not because he needs to narrow things down for Ned. This is clearly indicated by trying to answer his own question multiple times and even getting sidetracked into 'one of mine' with 'sweet big eyes you could drown in'.

This isn't Robert asking direct questions in order to get information. This is Robert meandering through a casual conversation with his friend, trying to remember old fun times from their past.

Who decides whether he's being specific enough?? You?? He can try and be as specific as he wants to. It stands to reason that he tries to as specific as possible anyway. He's making an effort to remember the name of the girl, yet at the end of the day he cannot remember her and straight up tells Ned.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

The only thing we know Ned told Robert was her name. 

No, we know that Ned told Robert the name of the mother of his bastard.

 As Robert himself tells him that.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Its right there in black and white. Robert is talking about one specific woman right from the start - Ned's 'one time'. Robert meanders all over the question of her name, repeatedly coming up with wrong names from his memory, and Ned only answers when Robert finishes his little run down memory lane and actually gives Ned space to answer 

It doesn't give any space to answer. All this meandering are still one big question question Ned has to answer.

"What was the name of the mother of you bastard you forgot your honor with?"

Robert isn't making separated questions, he's just making one, specifying and failing to remember her.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

And yet, his response is one answer. No negative or affirmative. So its clearly not an answer to all the questions (heck, Robert answered most of them himself).

Well obviously. Robert only makes one question... What's the name of the mother of your bastard...  Qualifiers are still part of the original question... 

Why would Ned must answer anything more than that?? 

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

That is an assumption itself. The only thing we know Ned provided Robert before was the name.

It's not an assumption, but Robert's own words.

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Agreed. Thats part of my argument.

But Neddy is not changing the tune. He's giving the same answer.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

This is your assumption only and I've shown an entirely reasonable way that Robert can come out of that convo without Ned telling him Wylla was the mother.

It's not my assumption, Robert says it himself.

And what you believe reasonable and what's reasonable doesn't have to necessarily concur.

 

 

Quote

If Robert goes into that conversation with prior 'knowledge' exactly as he went into the later conversation with prior knowledge, then he can come out of that conversation believing all sorts of things without Ned's input.

Nothing we know even implies that Robert may have known before their convo or that he even cared before their convo. 

Even then, even if Varys was indeed Batman, he is not btw, Robert would still want a confirmation from Ned. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

What Ned can and can't get out of that conversation without telling is entirely dependent on what Robert says to him.
What we know, is that Ned gave the name Wylla. And separately that Wylla was Jon's wetnurse that is believed by some people to be Jon's mother. 

Nope, it no longer is from the moment Robert says Ned told him once. Ned must to have said something to make Robert that a Wylla was Jon's mother.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

An example: (do not try to pretend I'm saying this is how it actually went!)
Robert: "I hear you got a bastard on some serving woman and you've got her wetnursing the boy. Well, come on Ned, spill. Details man, details. Is she hot? she must be hot. She must be so so hot to make Ned Stark forget his honour! Big eyes? Titties to die for? Come on man!"
Ned: Her name is Wylla. And I don't want to talk about it. ... Robert, I found Lyanna. She's dead, she died in my arms. A fever. I'm sorry."

So, this is not a confirmation that the mother is Wylla.... Just a confirmation of the second question??

Huh.

 

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Why would Robert ignore information from any other source? 

Ignore?? No.

Pretend that said sources are as trustworthy as Ned?? Nope.

If Robert is curious about the mother, no source is as good as Ned and he has easy access to him.

 

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Ironically, at this point it'd actually be a pretty massive and surprising twist if Ned and Wylla were indeed Jon's parents. I can't think of anything else that would be as monumental a troll from Martin if he did that. It'd be pretty funny, and I'd personally prefer it. I prefer the hero of the story to just be a regular guy, not some super special child of destiny born for a prophecy read by a legendary dragon prince. Screw that.

I'd be all for the subversion of expectations. The "hidden prince" is about as cliche as it gets in fantasy. I just can't see it based on what is in the novels, and the arguments here certainly haven't persuaded me. The evidence just seems to be because Ned and Ned Dayne said so. Leaving aside how you sweep all the collected evidence for R+L under the rug, there's zero need for all the secrecy concerning it if Jon's mother was just a peasant named Wylla. But I think the subversion of expectations won't be that the hero isn't the chosen prince. I think it will be that the chosen prince doesn't get the happy ending to come into his own.