Mister Smikes Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Tywin gave the order, Robert didn't. Henry II did not give any orders either for Thomas Becket's murder either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 43 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: I'd be all for the subversion of expectations. The "hidden prince" is about as cliche as it gets in fantasy. I just can't see it based on what is in the novels, and the arguments here certainly haven't persuaded me. The evidence just seems to be because Ned and Ned Dayne said so. Leaving aside how you sweep all the collected evidence for R+L under the rug, there's zero need for all the secrecy concerning it if Jon's mother was just a peasant named Wylla. But I think the subversion of expectations won't be that the hero isn't the chosen prince. I think it will be that the chosen prince doesn't get the happy ending to come into his own. This thing has already happened, in the accursed kings.King John of France is switched at birth with the child of another woman. He grows up and learns about his heritage and dies in prison. That would a sort of copy -pasting And if the mother is wylla then there was no secrecy. Fans just saw smoke where there never was fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, corbon said: He's already been specific enough -"that one time". That completely narrows it down already. If I understand you correctly, you think the nameless, faceless woman Robert has in mind is identified not by "the mother of your bastard" but rather by the fact that she is the only girl Ned ever had a non-marital fling with. Ned is not a kiss-and-tell kind of guy. A woman's honor is at stake, and to kiss and tell is a betrayal. And obviously Robert could not have caught them in the act, or Robert would know her face. The only reason Robert is likely to know about Ned's "one time" is that Ned took responsibility for a child born out of wedlock. And of course, Robert knows that such behavior is not typical for Ned, because he has long been piqued by his close friend's refusal to act as badly as he does. Lechery loves company. The topic of conversation is the mother of Ned's bastard. The very existence of Ned's bastard implies to Robert that Ned must have got it on with some girl, even if it was only for an hour. You are bending over backwards to avoid the natural reading of the text, merely so you can claim that N+W=J has "no evidence". And I don't even agree with N+W=J. But come on! It's right there in black and white that the mother of Ned's bastard is Wylla. The purpose of language is communication. Ned knows exactly what Robert understands by his words, and Ned intends Robert to understand them that way. I don't care if it isn't technically a lie if you translate it into Swahili and recite it backwards. ROBERT: And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? You told me once. You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother? NED: Her name was Wylla. ROBERT: Ah yes, that was it, your bastard's mother was Wylla. NED: Wrong! Learn how to parse language, like me and Corbon. ROBERT: Huh? Poor King Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said: This thing has already happened, in the accursed kings.King John of France is switched at birth with the child of another woman. He grows up and learns about his heritage and dies in prison. That would a sort of copy -pasting And if the mother is wylla then there was no secrecy. Fans just saw smoke where there never was fire The story of King John of France was rather an inspiration to fAegon's story. At least it seems to be at this point. He was switched before death, and grew up as the rightful king of the realm far away. Now, there are several similarities between him and Jon as well, but Jon ain't the switched baby, but the secret prince, or something of that sort. Not to say George doesn't copy paste. Aegon is the most like King John I of France, yet his story differs in many ways. Not to talk about Jon. If you read the entire series of thr Accursed Kings, you may have noticed George had a lot of inspiration from those books, but he usually used up one character's story in 3-4 of her characters. Robert d'Artois heavily resembles Tyrion, for example, yet he was a giant, a colossus, whereas Tyrion is a dwarf. And Robert had the same thing going on in his family that Tyrion had with his, yet it's very different. Just as the Lannister-Stark feud was inspired by the War of the Roses, George's version is pretty different. Basically, the conflicts are often the same, yet the outcome differs. Almost always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said: Henry II did not give any orders either for Thomas Becket's murder either. And neither Henry II nor Thomas Becket have anything to do with ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: And neither Henry II nor Thomas Becket have anything to do with ASOIAF. What are you arguing with me about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said: This thing has already happened, in the accursed kings.King John of France is switched at birth with the child of another woman. He grows up and learns about his heritage and dies in prison. That would a sort of copy -pasting And if the mother is wylla then there was no secrecy. Fans just saw smoke where there never was fire And from all the thousands if not millions of readers only you managed to see the fire? ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Mister Smikes said: What are you arguing with me about? That Robert isn't a *baby killer* as you called him since he never killed or ordered the death of a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: That Robert isn't a *baby killer* as you called him since he never killed or ordered the death of a child. I already agreed with you that Robert is not a baby killer in that sense. Several posts ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: Your objections do not address the actual theory. I thought we were discussing something simple like the timing of the birth. But if I have to explain the whole theory, then R+L=D is a topic for another thread. 8 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: I'm in no hurry to make one at the moment. And I obviously can't stop you. Don't bother, he already debunked your crackpot theory, move to another crazy one since it's a habit of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: I already agreed with you that Robert is not a baby killer in that sense. Several posts ago. He isn't a baby killer in any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: And from all the thousands if not millions of readers only you managed to see the fire? ok. I said there never was a fire. 34 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: The story of King John of France was rather an inspiration to fAegon's story. At least it seems to be at this point. He was switched before death, and grew up as the rightful king of the realm far away. Now, there are several similarities between him and Jon as well, but Jon ain't the switched baby, but the secret prince, or something of that sort. Not to say George doesn't copy paste. Aegon is the most like King John I of France, yet his story differs in many ways. Not to talk about Jon. If you read the entire series of thr Accursed Kings, you may have noticed George had a lot of inspiration from those books, but he usually used up one character's story in 3-4 of her characters. Robert d'Artois heavily resembles Tyrion, for example, yet he was a giant, a colossus, whereas Tyrion is a dwarf. And Robert had the same thing going on in his family that Tyrion had with his, yet it's very different. Just as the Lannister-Stark feud was inspired by the War of the Roses, George's version is pretty different. Basically, the conflicts are often the same, yet the outcome differs. Almost always. Well that's basically what I was saying. Jon isn't The westerosi version of King John of france he is the son of ned stark and wylla. Aegon is the one. He was switched at birth by varys and would have become the perfect king but he wont. Thanks for the support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: Well that's basically what I was saying No it's not. But whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: I said there never was a fire. You said that thousands of readers were wrong and you was right. 13 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: Aegon is the one. He was switched at birth by varys and would have become the perfect king but he wont. Varys never claimed to change Aegon at birth. Varys never claimed that Aegon is Rhaegar's Aegon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Varys never claimed to change Aegon at birth. Varys never claimed that Aegon is Rhaegar's Aegon Yes he did. So now according to you. Jon Snow is real and aegon is fake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Daenerysthegreat said: Yes he did. So now according to you. Jon Snow is real and aegon is fake? Sorry but no. It never happened. Unfortunately Jon is a Targaryen and FAegon isn't. FAegon is either a Blackfyre or a Brightflame or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Sorry but no. It never happened. Unfortunately Jon is a Targaryen and FAegon isn't. FAegon is either a Blackfyre or a Brightflame or both. First of all his name is aegon you can't just change his name whether he's real or not. I guess it's just banging my head against a wall convincing Jon stans that he might not be the perfect saviour if the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: First of all his name is aegon you can't just change his name whether he's real or not. I guess it's just banging my head against a wall convincing Jon stans that he might not be the perfect saviour if the world Well Varys never said that FAegon was Aegon Targaryen the son of Rhaegar and Elia. Being the savior and being a Targaryen isn't the same. Now in Jon's case, he is one of the major players in the final battle, the closest thing to a single savior is Bran, and unfortunately, he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's trueborn son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: Well Varys never said that FAegon was Aegon Targaryen the son of Rhaegar and Elia. Being the savior and being a Targaryen isn't the same. Now in Jon's case, he is one of the major players in the final battle, the closest thing to a single savior is Bran, and unfortunately, he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's trueborn son. For the last time his name is aegon not faegon. Learn his name. Jon being rhaegar and lyanna's son is unlikely. Him being their trueborn son is just ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 30 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said: For the last time his name is aegon not faegon. Learn his name. Jon being rhaegar and lyanna's son is unlikely. Him being their trueborn son is just ridiculous FAegon is FAegon until we learn his true name. The fact that you don't like the fact that Jon is, unfortunately, the trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't mean a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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