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8 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

He is a potential baby killer , in the reasonable view of Ned.  He is a person who Ned reasonably fears would and could murder children.   And he did (later) order the murder of 13-year old Dany.  I already explained my meaning.  Which exactly fits the context in which I used it.

Can't ordered the death of 12 years old children and her child killed a young girl. Is she a baby killer or not?

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I usually qualify it with parentheses, so (f)Aegon, but... yeah. Always figured it was an expression of doubt at his parentage. I honestly doubt we'll have it spelled out if he's really Aegon or not. I can't see JonCon having any reason to tell (f)Aegon the truth if he wasn't who he claimed. 

I have to admit that I have seen both but I am too lazy to use the parentheses. :rolleyes:

Does JonCon know the truth? I highly doubt it. If I recall correctly, he has said that (f)Aegon's eyes and Rhaegar's eyes had different colours. But I don't think that this would be much of an evidence for him.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I honestly doubt we'll have it spelled out if he's really Aegon or not.

I tend to think that if we don't get confirmation that Aegon is a blackfyre or something or if we don't get solid proof that Illyrio and Varys have personal agenda to put a Blackfyre /piss water king on the throne, it would be acceptable that YG is really Aegon. that is considering we see the whole fake dragon vision play out in some other way or we get some explanation that this mummer's dragon doesn't mean un-Targ.

 because : 1) it seems a bit too much of personality un-veil if we are led to doubt if some kid is dead then see someone who we are told is someone else , yet turns out to be that first boy but then is actually someone else entirely

2) the information we got on Blackfyre in the main books seem more like fan-service or promotion for dunk and egg and fire&blood... after all if we don't get any mention of these conflicts why would we be intrigued to read some book that's written like a boring history book? ... in my reread I realized Blackfyre mentions aren't that much more than the ones about Dance , the ones on Aemon-Aegon-Nearys and even Baelor and his sisters, while Brightflame mentions are non-existence.

yet what makes me skeptical other than the vision is the little conversation Tyrion and Illyrio had.

at the end I personally think it would be a really good story if we and Dany both think that this boy is fake and we somehow realize he was real only after he is killed by Dany because of misinterpretation of the vision. 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I can't see JonCon having any reason to tell (f)Aegon the truth if he wasn't who he claimed. 

I doubt any of them know.

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2 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I have to admit that I have seen both but I am too lazy to use the parentheses. :rolleyes:

Does JonCon know the truth? I highly doubt it. If I recall correctly, he has said that (f)Aegon's eyes and Rhaegar's eyes had different colours. But I don't think that this would be much of an evidence for him.

No big deal on the parentheses. I can get overly precise at times but that's just me. :) 

JonCon may not know the truth. We do know that Martin kinda writes around what a character may or may not know in the example of Ned and Jon's parentage. Illyrio might know the truth if there is a truth to be known as well. I just think it's one of those things that won't be spelled out and the fans will be left wondering if he was legit or not.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

No big deal on the parentheses. I can get overly precise at times but that's just me. :) 

JonCon may not know the truth. We do know that Martin kinda writes around what a character may or may not know in the example of Ned and Jon's parentage. Illyrio might know the truth if there is a truth to be known as well. I just think it's one of those things that won't be spelled out and the fans will be left wondering if he was legit or not.

I don't think that JonCon knows the truth. Varys would need someone whose loyalty would be unquestionable and If Jon knew the truth he would never support (f)Aegon instead of Rhaegar's siblings.

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36 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Dany ordered the death of 12 years old children and her child killed a young girl. Is she a baby killer or not?

Depends on how you define baby killer.  Choose your own definition and answer your own question.

I was referring to Ned's concerns about King Robert.

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3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

When was this?

In Astapor; she only spared children under 12 (they ended butchered as fake Unsullied under Cleon anyway)

Edited by Tucu

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8 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Depends on how you define baby killer.  Choose your own definition and answer your own question.

I was referring to Ned's concerns about King Robert.

You said that Robert is a baby killer for ordering Dany's death.

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1 minute ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You're saying Adwd and @Tucu is saying asos. 

Well let's get back to the topic shall we

This was in ASoS:

Quote

“Unsullied!” Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!”

 

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3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You said that Robert is a baby killer for ordering Dany's death.

No.  I used the phrase "babykiller Robert" in the context of, and in reference to, Ned's reasonable fears that Robert could and would murder a child.  I mentioned his later assassination orders against Dany (and, as @Daenerysthegreat points out, her unborn child) later, and only to illustrate that Ned's fears were reasonable.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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12 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

No.  I used the phrase "babykiller Robert" in the context of, and in reference to, Ned's reasonable fears that Robert could and would murder a child.  I mentioned his later assassination orders against Dany (and, as @Daenerysthegreat points out, her unborn child) later, and only to illustrate that Ned's fears were reasonable.

Is this a part of n + w = j discussion or is this a different discussion altogether. Forgive me if it's the former, my memory's a bit slow. 

If it's the latter we should return to topic I don't want this thread suffering the fate of 'Do we think George passed 1500 manuscript pages?' and 'Who's they' threads, threads that had great discussion earlier but shifted from the topic

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47 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Is this a part of n + w = j discussion or is this a different discussion altogether. Forgive me if it's the former, my memory's a bit slow. 

Currently, I think it's just about Lilac & Gooseberries playing word-police.

I originally uttered the phrase "babykiller Robert" in the context of discussing N+W=J.  I said I would not blame Ned for lying to "babykiller Robert" about a child, but Ned's answer on its face still means that Wylla is the mother of Ned's bastard.  .

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