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N + W = J


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34 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

N+W=J could hardly be true once you address the fact that Jon's mother is Lyanna. 

Its not a 'fact' - yet - no matter how overwhelming the evidence for it is. Mis-characterising it as such only aggravates and gives ammunition to its opponents.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its not a 'fact' - yet - no matter how overwhelming the evidence for it is. Mis-characterising it as such only aggravates and gives ammunition to its opponents.

I'm fairly certain that with the bolding, he's being either a). sarcastic or b). it's his opinion or c). he wants a reaction. 

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13 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I have believed in this fact since I started reading the first book for the first time. I think this is the true theory for Jon's parentage. 

Evidence is

1) When The usurper asks ned stark who is Jon's mother, ned says it's wylla. Now we all know that ned stark would never lie to his best friend. 

2) When arya meets ned dayne m, he tells her that ned stark and ashara dayne were lovers but ned had a child on wylla who is currently serving in starfall. 

Both of these statements are verifable I believe. Anyone can verify it. I believe it will be verified when areo hotah arrives at starfall to search for darkstar and meets wylla. 

@Daenerysthegreat sorry not sorry

 

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2 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not a 'fact' - yet - no matter how overwhelming the evidence for it is. Mis-characterising it as such only aggravates and gives ammunition to its opponents.

I pretty much think it's fact at this point. Martin would have a hard time backpedaling R+L=J without looking silly at best. Much like most attempts to detract the theory, but it holds a morbid fascination of mine. Tin foil can be shiny and pretty.

But yes, there are a lot of posters who have a tendency to post their opinions as fact. I do think it's important to qualify these things.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I pretty much think it's fact at this point. Martin would have a hard time backpedaling R+L=J without looking silly at best. Much like most attempts to detract the theory, but it holds a morbid fascination of mine. Tin foil can be shiny and pretty.

But yes, there are a lot of posters who have a tendency to post their opinions as fact. I do think it's important to qualify these things.

My point really was that when dealing with inaccurate, irrational and intransigent people, its not helpful to a) act like them and b) give them one of the exact counter arguments that is being used against them.
Even in sarcasm or to troll them.

Most people posit their opinions as fact at one time or another, simply because its incredibly tiresome to reference that something is an opinion every single time you say anything thats not a direct quote.
Bolding the word 'fact' on something that clearly isn't (no matter how much I agree with you on the preponderance of evidence) is a whole different kettle of fish. 

Edited by corbon
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22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I pretty much think it's fact at this point. Martin would have a hard time backpedaling R+L=J without looking silly at best. Much like most attempts to detract the theory, but it holds a morbid fascination of mine. Tin foil can be shiny and pretty.

 

My only objection is that it jeopardizes Dany's claim, but I'm not D&D (they can simply marry to unite whatever claim Jon has). Fuck the incest thing, Sansa Stark married her uncle. 

1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

@Daenerysthegreat sorry not sorry

Let's pop some popcorn and watch him try to disprove it, people. :) 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I pretty much think it's fact at this point. Martin would have a hard time backpedaling R+L=J without looking silly at best. Much like most attempts to detract the theory, but it holds a morbid fascination of mine. Tin foil can be shiny and pretty.

But yes, there are a lot of posters who have a tendency to post their opinions as fact. I do think it's important to qualify these things.

It is not even proved to be true so i don't think people should treat it like word of God. There are lot of posters who post that lyanna theory as fact what about them. How on earth is a discussion of jon's parentage including a theory with full evidence, tinfoil. 

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

N+W=J could hardly be true once you address the fact that Jon's mother is Lyanna. 

You know it's a lost cause when he constantly calls Robert "the usurper".

First of all I'm a she not a he

How can lyanna being jon's mother be a fact if It isn't even confirmed. It was only used by that stupid show, and we all know how that ended. 

I don't understand the obsession with the lyanna theory. People are so engrossed in it that they believe everything else is tinfoil. And by people I mean forum people. No casual reader I met even knew about this theory. 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The first Sansa Stark, granddaughter of Cregan Stark through his eldest son Rickon Stark. Her half-uncle, more specifically, was Jonnel Stark. 

 

33 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Yeah not Tyrion and Sansa :laugh:

 

25 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

LMAOOOOOOO, Sansa Stark and Jonnel Stark, as explained above. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

That moment when you are relieved it's only some other Stark marrying her uncle and are relieved because that's much less creepy. I think I've immersed myself too much into this universe. :blink:

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15 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I have believed in this fact since I started reading the first book for the first time. I think this is the true theory for Jon's parentage. 

Evidence is

1) When The usurper asks ned stark who is Jon's mother, ned says it's wylla. Now we all know that ned stark would never lie to his best friend. 

2) When arya meets ned dayne m, he tells her that ned stark and ashara dayne were lovers but ned had a child on wylla who is currently serving in starfall. 

Both of these statements are verifable I believe. Anyone can verify it. I believe it will be verified when areo hotah arrives at starfall to search for darkstar and meets wylla. 

Unless proven otherwise, Ned and Ashara are the parents of Snowflake.  I am partial to Brandon and Lyanna being Jon's parents though.  The Stark siblings had an incestuous relation and conceived Jon Snow. Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow

Edited by Rondo
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6 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Unless proven otherwise, Ned and Ashara are the parents of Snowflake.  I am partial to Brandon and Lyanna being Jon's parents though.  The Stark siblings had an incestuous relation and conceived Jon Snow. Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow

Actually it's not proven that all that ned and ashara are jon's parents. 

why would the starks, honorable and well bred have an incestuous relation with each other. The starks aren't like Jaime and cersei. 

And when did they even conceive jon. Lyanna and Brandon were apart for a year after her death. 

Please explain this

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15 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I don't understand the obsession with the lyanna theory. People are so engrossed in it that they believe everything else is tinfoil. 

Its called the ability to weigh evidence. Each piece of evidence has its own, different, unique relationship to the real truth, and thus its own 'value'. Sifting the evidence, comparing it against other pieces, considering how it was arrived at and who from and what they actually experienced, is what we do - some people more effectively than others - 

R+L=J has a lot of evidence. And though much of it is indirect, often the sources are more reliable than the sources for most alternate theory data.

In comparison, the source data for the alternative theories is very weak. There is usually very little pointing to any particular theory other than 'someone said it' - and usually the people saying it (Cat, Robert, Cersei, Edric Dayne etc) do not have direct access or personal experience to know what they are saying is true. They might believe that what they say is true, but they weren't actually around to witness what they are talking about.
An example of this is Robert's belief that Wylla was Jon;s mother. Yet Robert explicitly never met Wylla so he was never around Ned and Wylla together. Therefore he is not what we would call a primary source, and the value of his data is considerably lower than, say Ned saying "he is my blood, and thats all you need to know". 
It would be very interesting to know what Howland Reed thinks (as opposed to says, people can lie too, but they rarely lie to themselves, at least not in this way) for example. If HR doesn't think Jon is Lyanna's son, then that would pretty much kill the R+L=J theory, because a key part (there are many many other clues unrelated, but ToJ is definitely a direct part of the narrative of the theory) is the ToJ and HR was there. 

Its also important to think about why characters believe clearly wrong things (whichever theory you believe, characters who state other theories will be wrong, so by definition a bunch of them are wrong no matter what the truth is).
R+L=J is also the only theory which provides a reasonable explanation for the various differing beliefs character offer. Ie if R+L=J is true, its possible to see a clear and reasonable path to the beliefs of characters who are wrong, but genuinely believe what they say is right..

But even then, there are plenty of people who disagree, often vehemently, with R+L=J as a theory. Many of whom are just as intelligent and well-informed as any R+L=J believer.
You don't see them around as often because they had all these arguments before. They know the data, for and against, and they know they can't make a case that looks convincing, just as they know they won't be convinced to shift either - without more data from GRRM.
Its usually the relative 'noobs' (no offense intended - and noob-ery or not doesn't make an argument stronger, only the data does that) who come in convinced they are right and ready to show everyone else up.
Sorry, I guess i have a somewhat jaded view on this one. :blush:B)

15 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

 And by people I mean forum people. No casual reader I met even knew about this theory. 

While that neither makes it right nor wrong, what you will find is that most casual readers read the books once (if at all) and didn't pay close attention to all the details. Most people who come to the forums (more true before the TV series, but still true) are the types who have read the books repeatedly, looked for details, discussed or read other's discussion of them, read and reread the surrounding source material and so on. Most casual readers have not done any of these things and as a consequence have much less knowledge with which to form their understandings.

As a personal example, I first read the books (there were only 3 then) way way back and read through them at a great rate, keenly interested in 'what happens next', rather than the mysteries and details. I don't think it even occurred to me to wonder (or care) who Jon's mother was or that his father might not be Ned.
But I did a reread to prepare for the release of AFfC, and before i finished that was all over R+L=J and in fact jumped on the internet exactly to find out if this was really a thing. I came here by way of the Tower of the Hand, where I learned much more of this and other theories. And continue to learn (I saw a very nice little side catch today they I'd never seen of heard before - that no longer happens often, but it still happens)

 

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GRRM himself has said that D&D knew who Jon's mother was, and had answered the question correctly based on a close reading of the text, in an interview with Rolling Stone:

Quote

Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.

I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.

Did they get it right?

They answered correctly.

The real question, then, is not whether or not the show used the wrong theory, but why D&D would use the wrong theory when they had postulated the correct one from the novel.

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31 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

why would the starks, honorable and well bred have an incestuous relation with each other. The starks aren't like Jaime and cersei. 

And when did they even conceive jon. Lyanna and Brandon were apart for a year after her death. 

Please explain this

Sometimes, more often that we'd like, people aren't really serious, just saying a dickhead thing to get a reaction or be different. But its not always easy to tell.

Its usually better to either ignore them, or leave some basic facts that counter their narrative.*
In other words, if a theory is really really silly, best not ask for an explanation at all! :D

* and sometimes you're just in the mood for a discussion and this is the best available. Or their theories are crazy, but there is just enough in there to confuse people, so you want to make it clear why this theory isn't worth pursing for other people. And sometimes you shouldn't do either of those things but do them anyway. 
Or, you haven't heard it all before and genuinely want to know - it can be hard to pick out the crazy from the clever sometimes!

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37 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Actually it's not proven that all that ned and ashara are jon's parents. 

why would the starks, honorable and well bred have an incestuous relation with each other. The starks aren't like Jaime and cersei. 

And when did they even conceive jon. Lyanna and Brandon were apart for a year after her death. 

Please explain this

The Starks are not honorable.  We have seen how lowly Robb and Jon are when it comes to honor.  They are oathbreakers.  Jon is a liar.  Arya is a psyco murderer.  Sansa is selfish.  They are not at all honorable.  

Lyanna was already carrying the child when she ran away.  She was already pregnant before she came to the tower of joy.  

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Perhaps Edric is going to be the R+L baby, and Ned gave him and Wylla to the Daynes along with Dawn. It hurt Ned to do so, and it caused him to mix up Jon's mother with Lyanna. Edric was then legitimized so as to avoid bringing further shame upon the family. 

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