What do the Faceless Men think of the Others?

[Groo]

The traditional response to valar morghulis is valar dohaeris, "all men must serve". This could be read as first you die and then you serve. I'm truly undecided about what the Faceless Men think of the Others. Death is supposed to be the great gift of the Many-Faced God. It is the end of suffering and misery. Turning the dead into wights would seem to be a gross perversion of this. On the other hand, are the wights just serving? They seem to not feel pain so has their suffering ended? Are the Faceless Men for or against the Others?

[EggBlue]

your explanation for others-faceless team is pretty interesting though I still think they are against each other.

there is absolutely no proof or hint of it but I've got feeling that wights can feel and have a certain level of conscientious but are enslaved to the Others' will or something like that. after all fire-zombies aren't free of pain either and are bound to their last duty/desire so in a way they are enslaved and are still in agony.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Groo said:

 Are the Faceless Men for or against the Others?

Is there any evidence the faceless men know about or believe in the existence of the Others or their undead servants?

[Groo]

13 minutes ago, corbon said:

Is there any evidence the faceless men know about or believe in the existence of the Others or their undead servants?

No, there isn't. I can just rephrase the questions as Do you think the Faceless Men will be for or against the Others? Even if the Others don't cross the sea, their return threatens to upend the entire world order. At some point the Faceless Men will get involved. They aren't just neutral actors in all of this. The Faceless Men are already poking around the Citadel. Some even speculate that Euron paid them a dragon's egg to kill Balon.

[corbon]

15 minutes ago, Groo said:

No, there isn't. I can just rephrase the questions as Do you think the Faceless Men will be for or against the Others? Even if the Others don't cross the sea, their return threatens to upend the entire world order. At some point the Faceless Men will get involved. They aren't just neutral actors in all of this. The Faceless Men are already poking around the Citadel. Some even speculate that Euron paid them a dragon's egg to kill Balon.

The Faceless men are human. The gift of death from the many faced god does end misery etc - for those in that state. Not for everyone. They are not a death cult dedicated to destroying all humanity. They target specific people, and see death as a gift in certain circumstance, not as a universal need, prematurely.

Thus, I can't seem them in any way as 'allied' to the Others - creatures who apparently hate and appear to wish to destroy all living things with hot blood.

We'd need to learn a lot of new things about the Others for that to change. Which is not to say that is impossible for GRRM. But from what we have so far, no, nada, zero chance, zilch.

No servants, or worshippers, of the many-faced god once everyone is a mindless zombie.

[Lord Lannister]

I could be wrong, but it feels to me like the FM would feel the Others are "cheating" or death or "stealing" the gift with their zombie resurrection antics.

[Jaenara Belarys]

This should be: What will the Faceless Men think of the Others? If they do find out, then they'll probably feel what @Lord Lannister thinks they'll feel. 

White walkers are very indiscriminate. They'll kill anything, whereas the FM only kill who they were assigned to kill. Two very different methods of doing the same thing. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Deep. My first thought is that maybe they see wights as 'stolen from the many faced god', but they themselves use corpses in their work - or at least the faces from corpses, so perhaps their view is that the soul has escaped with death and the body which remains is free to whoever would use it. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

21 hours ago, Groo said:

This could be read as first you die and then you serve.

This reminds me of one of LML's ideas that originally the entire night's watch were zombies.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:04 PM, corbon said:

Is there any evidence the faceless men know about or believe in the existence of the Others or their undead servants?

Hi Corbon.  

As suggested upthread, there is no hard evidence that absolutely confirms the Faceless Men know about the Others. However, if we suddenly get a scene confirming they do know, it would be no surprise and certainly something George had set up. 

We know the Faceless Men make it their business to gather information, as we see with Arya/Cat.

Quote

"Learn three new things before you come back to us," the Kindly Man had commanded Cat, when he sent her forth into the city. She always did. Sometimes it was no more than three new words of the Braavosi tongue. Sometimes she brought back sailor's tales, of strange and wondrous happenings from the wide wet world beyond the isles of Braavos.... (Cat of the Canals)

We also know there are Wildlings in Braavos who were fleeing the Others before being picked up by the Lyseni pirate galley the Goodheart, with intentions to be sold into slavery. The Sealord seizes the ship as slaving is forbidden in Braavos. So maybe some gossip has circulated from the Wildling women and children in the city? A real possibility. But what is a near certainty is that these petrified Wildlings would have told the Lyseni sailor's exactly what they were fleeing from at Hardhome. The Lyseni don't have to believe them, the important thing is they have the information from the Westerosi. 

Which leads us cleverly to the evidence suggesting it's highly likely the Faceless Men know about the Others, straight from Arya herself no less. When masquerading as Blind Beth, Arya overheard three Lyseni sailor's off the Goodheart in Pynto's tavern discussing the events at Hardhome. The account Arya takes back to the Faceless Men is very detailed. It lacks absolute confirmation of the Others, but I think George wants us readers to put the clues together. It would be too easy for George to just tell us outright, this technique of leaving breadcrumbs for us to piece together is far more in keeping with Grrm's style. Here's that text....

Quote

And later three Lyseni, sailors off the Goodheart, a storm-wracked galley that had limped into Braavos last night and been seized this morning by the Sealord's guards.

The Lyseni took the table nearest to the fire and spoke quietly over cups of black tar rum, keeping their voices low so no one could overhear. But she was no one and she heard most every word. And for a time it seemed that she could see them too, through the slitted yellow eyes of the tomcat purring in her lap. One was old and one was young and one had lost an ear, but all three had the white-blond hair and smooth fair skin of Lys, where the blood of the old Freehold still ran strong.

The next morning, when the kindly man asked her what three things she knew that she had not known before, she was ready.

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed."

Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

"It is good to know. This is two. Is there a third?"

(The Blind Girl)

The set up that Arya gets information from sailors comes to fruition. Plenty of it as well. Including, the King beyond the Wall and his supposed death, the ensuing battle fought, the prophecy from Mother's Mole, how many Wildlings were at Hardhome etc. The women and children of the free folk definitely told the Lyseni what had happened to them and why they were at Hardhome. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have mentioned the Others as well. 

As for what the Faceless Men think of the Others, I reckon they would be firmly against them considering the followers of Him of Many Faces consider death to be part of the natural order of things and a merciful end to suffering. The Wights would be an abomination to them i would've thought. I actually think they may see Arya as someone who could eventually return to Westeros and fight against them. 

Cool topic. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:08 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

This reminds me of one of LML's ideas that originally the entire night's watch were zombies.

Here's the video of that green zombies theory. 

I love this theory and think it has a lot of symbolic evidence backing it up. Simplified, it suggests that resurrected skinchangers would be the best soldier/warrior/person to fight the Others. Jon is going to be exactly this once he's resurrected. It doesn't necessarily have to be the entirety of the original Nights Watch were green zombies. But a certain amount of the original NW being undead fighters (think Coldhands) would certainly seem advantageous. 

[867-5309]

On 10/13/2021 at 3:49 PM, Groo said:

 

Do they even know about the Others? Religious nuts like the fm are insular.  Maybe they are not aware of the Others' existence. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

58 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

Do they even know about the Others? Religious nuts like the fm are insular.  Maybe they are not aware of the Others' existence. 

Hi 867-5309.

I think they do know about the Others. I posted my explanation and evidence for why two above your one. (#10) 

In short, the Wildlings from Hardhome would have brought the information to Braavos with the Lyseni pirates on the Goodheart. Arya then overheard the pirates talking about news they'd heard on the ship. Arya then reported it back to the Kindly Man. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Simplified, it suggests that resurrected skinchangers would be the best soldier/warrior/person to fight the Others. Jon is going to be exactly this once he's resurrected. It doesn't necessarily have to be the entirety of the original Nights Watch were green zombies.

Check this out, Jon was the 998th Lord Commander.  Jon's lucky number is nine, the weirwood grove of nine is special to him, and naoi means "nine" in gaelic, and he was friends Donal Noye.  When he comes back he will be the 999th Lord Commander, but Sam suggests the real number in is the 600s.  999 upside down is 666, and Jon will be the Night King.  He is not going to fight against the Others, he is going to lead them.  Jon Snow is an evil name, and is synonymous with Jack Frost, the spirit of winter.  Jon comes out the tomb covered in flour, he comes back as a white/wight.  Jon "sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him"  Aragorn led an undead army, and so did Odin. 

 

In Welsh myth the god of death had white hell hounds with red ears called Cŵn Annwn, and their appearance foreshadowed death, and they accompanied souls to the Otherworld.  If Jon's direwolf is a white hellhound, then Jon is the god of death.  And Jon does have dreams where he kills everyone while wearing ice armor like the Others.

[Jaenara Belarys]

@By Odin's Beard, that's actually pretty interesting to think about.

I like the 600s thing, since it feels like the sort of thing GRRM would do and like @Megorova says, there are some influences from the Bible (You'd have to ask her for specifics). 

I do however have this question: how did Jon get resurrected? Did they just throw him out beyond the Wall? Or did Melisandre do it? 

[Groo]

On 10/13/2021 at 3:11 PM, EggBlue said:

there is absolutely no proof or hint of it but I've got feeling that wights can feel and have a certain level of conscientious but are enslaved to the Others' will or something like that. after all fire-zombies aren't free of pain either and are bound to their last duty/desire so in a way they are enslaved and are still in agony.

I know you don't have anything concrete to point to but is your guess about the wights feeling things based on just the comparison to fire-zombies? I'm interested in what else leads you to suspect that. Coldhands is clearly conscious and capable of independent thought and action but we haven't seen anything like that from the wights yet. If you're right then I'd consider my original question answered. There's no way the Faceless Men would be OK with that.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

46 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jon was the 998th Lord Commander.  Jon's lucky number is nine, the weirwood grove of nine is special to him, and naoi means "nine" in gaelic, and he was friends Donal Noye.  When he comes back he will be the 999th Lord Commander, but Sam suggests the real number in is the 600s.  999 upside down is 666, and Jon will be the Night King.  He is not going to fight against the Others, he is going to lead them.  Jon Snow is an evil name, and is synonymous with Jack Frost, the spirit of winter.  Jon comes out the tomb covered in flour, he comes back as a white/wight.  Jon "sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him"  Aragorn led an undead army, and so did Odin. 

Why would Jon want to kill everyone? I agree he will be serving the old gods in some way like an Ice Wight but he won't lead the Others.

[EggBlue]

6 hours ago, Groo said:

I know you don't have anything concrete to point to but is your guess about the wights feeling things based on just the comparison to fire-zombies? I'm interested in what else leads you to suspect that. Coldhands is clearly conscious and capable of independent thought and action but we haven't seen anything like that from the wights yet. If you're right then I'd consider my original question answered. There's no way the Faceless Men would be OK with that.

well , this assumption of mine stems from a combination of my thoughts on fire zombies , coldhand, Martin's style and the relation of Valyrian slavery to other parts of the story .

fire zombies are neither free ( as I explained , they are enslaved by their desire rather than someone or a single cause) nor unconscious. Coldhands on the other hand seems to be even more conscious and yet seems to be bound to the duty CoF have gave him: bring Bran. now the weights we have seen so far attacked their own lord commander , something completely out of character. as you said I can't point to one example to prove otherwise. it could very well be that they are mindless resurected bodies . in my view that'll be like Martin has thrown a "cloth dragon" in the middle of the story for the sole purpose of giving the heros something to fight.  so I prefer to think fire zombies could be similar to weights in some ways and this is the way I think could work well.

using the seemingly  biggest threat the world is facing just as a plot device , not developing it to be related to other parts of the story and leaving it to be a big bady to bring people together doesn't seem the style of the author who has written the whole feast and dance to develop characters ( like Cersei and Victarion) who used to be more like villains .

lastly , there is a lot of focus on slavery in ghis and Valyria . I suspect there is more to this than having a dragonlord freeing slaves instead of enslaving them like her ancestors did.

of course this is not close to a proof, but we have nothing else anyway.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 10/13/2021 at 2:49 PM, Groo said:

The traditional response to valar morghulis is valar dohaeris, "all men must serve". This could be read as first you die and then you serve. I'm truly undecided about what the Faceless Men think of the Others. Death is supposed to be the great gift of the Many-Faced God. It is the end of suffering and misery. Turning the dead into wights would seem to be a gross perversion of this. On the other hand, are the wights just serving? They seem to not feel pain so has their suffering ended? Are the Faceless Men for or against the Others?

I have posted this same argument before--first you die, then you serve (in the undead army). 

All of Braavos is a metaphor for a weirwood hill--Underneath a stone giant there is a secret city that is sinking under the sea, that is presided over by the Sea Lord (green sea lord = greenseer), and has a Chthonic death cult whose temple exactly parallels Bloodraven's cave and Bloodraven and the Kindly Man both have the White Worm symbolism of weirwood death cults, and they have a secret group of unstoppable assassins (bravo literally means "assassin", and Faceless Men = the White Walkers).  White Walkers are shadow swords, and Arya is being trained to be a sword in the shadows (see A Night at the Tarn House, where Liriane is a face-changing shadow sword assassin who kills wizards).

To hire a Faceless Man is very costly, and White Walkers are produced via child sacrifice.  The Titan of Braavos accepts child sacrifice in order to protect the city.  At the House of Black and White they accept blood sacrifice and reanimate the dead--they wear the skin of the dead.

Weirwoods in Westeros are white, but they are black in Essos.  The House of Black and White has a lot of Freemasonry imagery and the two pillars of Freemasonry are a white pillar named Jachin, and a black pillar named Boaz,  Jaqen H'ghar (red and white hair) came from Lorath where they worship Boash.  (and a rath is circular fort on a hill)

 

The Braavosi are famous for their purple dye made from purple sea snails.  The real name of this purple dye is Tyrian Purple and it is made from snails called Bolinus Brandaris.  (bole = "tree", boletus = "mushroom", bolide = "bright meteor, missile") 

In Gaelic one of the words for sea snail is preachan, which also means "crow" and "ugly girl" and preach means "root" and "crow" and "unfettered, his own master"  And Braavos was founded by escaped slaves.  In Celtic myth the god of death is a crow.

So sea snails = crow = weirwood roots.  And in George's story Guardians, the hive minded telepathic greendreaming mudpots were sea snails (who genetically-engineered/weaponized krakens that could shoot themselves into the air)

Brandaris is the name of a red and white Lighthouse named after Saint Brendan the Voyager who sailed to the Isle of the Blessed  (essentially a retelling of the Voyage of Bran the Blessed).  And Bran the Builder built the red and white Hightower Lighthouse, which is a metaphor for a weirwood, underneath of which is a repository of all knowledge ~ weirwood network (and the glass candle = Palantir in the White Tower on Avallone). 

[Curled Finger]

Good conversation.   The FM became an order by freeing slaves from their torment.  That freedom just happened to be in the gift of death.   Seems to me that a long standing order that believes death as in ceasing to exist would take real exception to reanimated corpses.  Of course they do experience something of the lives of the people whose faces they wear and how is that reconciled with absolute death as freedom?   The FM are fascinating--can't wait to see what they really think of zombie making Others, the Others themselves and Dany as a dragon riding Valyrian and breaker of chains.