U.S. Politics / bounced checks and negative balances

[DMC]

It's pretty extraordinary how much one speech tarnished Powell's legacy.  Hard to find an article on his death that doesn't mention it in the lede.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

It's pretty extraordinary how much one speech tarnished Powell's legacy.  Hard to find an article on his death that doesn't mention it in the lede.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln?

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's pretty extraordinary how much one speech tarnished Powell's legacy.  Hard to find an article on his death that doesn't mention it in the lede.

That speech was by far the most consequential thing that Colin Powell did.  Yes, he did other things, many of them quite laudatory, but in the end, he's the guy who sold his reputation to puff up the fraudulent case for war with Iraq.

[maarsen]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That speech was by far the most consequential thing that Colin Powell did.  Yes, he did other things, many of them quite laudatory, but in the end, he's the guy who sold his reputation to puff up the fraudulent case for war with Iraq.

When you try to polish the turd that was Dubya Bush, one is bound to get shit on one's hands. 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That speech was by far the most consequential thing that Colin Powell did.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's right or wrong that his legacy is so tarnished by the speech, just making an observation.  In terms of mainstream perception - other than that - he's pretty clearly the most decorated, respected, and popular post-WWII general there is.

[Maithanet]

If you really want to play the What If? game, it's possible that his willingness to be Dubya's SoS (which was announced well before the 2000 election) was even more important.  It did lend credence to the idea that Dubya was a serious, mainstream candidate, which he needed.  Impossible to say for sure, but it feels realistic that Powell's support was sufficient to improve Dubya's standing in Florida by 0.01%, without which would be enough to change all of world history. 

Alas.  When it mattered most, Powell let us all down. 

[Fez]

25 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That speech was by far the most consequential thing that Colin Powell did.  Yes, he did other things, many of them quite laudatory, but in the end, he's the guy who sold his reputation to puff up the fraudulent case for war with Iraq.

I've lost track of where history landed on Powell's role in that speech. Did he know he was lying or was he being lied to by others in the Bush administration?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

If you really want to play the What If? game, it's possible that his willingness to be Dubya's SoS (which was announced well before the 2000 election) was even more important.  It did lend credence to the idea that Dubya was a serious, mainstream candidate, which he needed.  Impossible to say for sure, but it feels realistic that Powell's support was sufficient to improve Dubya's standing in Florida by 0.01%, without which would be enough to change all of world history. 

Alas.  When it mattered most, Powell let us all down. 

I think it’s fair to argue the Clinton Administration’s handling of the Elian Gonzalez situation impacted FL significantly more than Powell’s early support for Bush. If they had dealt with it better Powell wouldn’t have mattered at all.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

I've lost track of where history landed on Powell's role in that speech. Did he know he was lying or was he being lied to by others in the Bush administration?

If you're going to take on a position of power and consequence like that it's your responsibility to get it right. There were plenty of people contemporaneously questioning the "intelligence" of the Bush administration, maybe Powell should have sought some of them out. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

If you're going to take on a position of power and consequence like that it's your responsibility to get it right. There were plenty of people contemporaneously questioning the "intelligence" of the Bush administration, maybe Powell should have sought some of them out. 

Remember, Powell threatened to resign if we allowed gays to openly serve in the military.

He had 'deep reservations' about invading Iraq, but did not actually threaten to resign.

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

If you really want to play the What If? game, it's possible that his willingness to be Dubya's SoS (which was announced well before the 2000 election) was even more important.

Meh, while I get your point, I'd file this more under the "endless potential factors that could have changed the outcome of such a close election."  Especially considering how much hay was made of Powell declaring himself (and campaigning for) a Republican just five years prior.  Not to mention, of course, his association with both the Reagan and Bush I administrations.

12 minutes ago, Fez said:

Did he know he was lying or was he being lied to by others in the Bush administration?

Both.

[Morpheus]

Powell was always trash to be fair, from the Mai Lai Massacre cover up to Iran Contra, his hands were dirty long before Dubya, his reputation was always largely smoke and mirrors.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Powell was always trash to be fair, from the Mai Lai Massacre cover up to Iran Contra, his hands were dirty long before Dubya, his reputation was always largely smoke and mirrors.

How was Powell directly involved in Mai Lai?

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How was Powell directly involved in Mai Lai?

Quote

He was assigned to investigate a letter from a serving soldier that reinforced allegations of a massacre at My Lai in March 1968, in which US soldiers killed hundreds of civilians, including children.

Powell's conclusion, that "in direct refutation of this portrayal, relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent", flew in the face of growing evidence of brutal treatment of civilians by US forces.

He was later accused of "whitewashing" the news of the massacre, details of which did not finally become public until 1970.

 

[Morpheus]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How was Powell directly involved in Mai Lai?

I said involved in covering up the massacre not the massacre itself. Played the part of propagandist in the face of military brutality .

[Fragile Bird]

I remember reading that Powell was encouraged to run for the nomination one year, or to at least accept the VP post, but he decided that he would not, could not, subject his family and himself, of course, to an examination of the events associated with Mai Lai.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I remember reading that Powell was encouraged to run for the nomination one year, or to at least accept the VP post, but he decided that he would not, could not, subject his family and himself, of course, to an examination of the events associated with Mai Lai.

He was rumored as a VP pick for both parties in 92 and - after clarifying he was a Republican - a lot of them wanted him to run against Clinton in 96.  I don't the reason none of that happened has much to do with his My Lai propaganda though.  Doubt him nor the GOP were that concerned about it.

[Fragile Bird]

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

He was rumored as a VP pick for both parties in 92 and - after clarifying he was a Republican - a lot of them wanted him to run against Clinton in 96.  I don't the reason none of that happened has much to do with his My Lai propaganda though.  Doubt him nor the GOP were that concerned about it.

There may have been an interview years later, maybe 60 Minutes, where it came up.

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

There may have been an interview years later, maybe 60 Minutes, where it came up.

The My Lai massacre was a huge black eye for the US military as evidence of a

coverup went all the way to the top. Even the court martial of William Calley was an exercise in trying to find a way of not finding him guilty, despite the evidence. 

When your boss is an idiot and you cheerfully work under him, as did Powell, then you are no smarter. 

[Fragile Bird]

11 minutes ago, maarsen said:

The My Lai massacre was a huge black eye for the US military as evidence of a

coverup went all the way to the top. Even the court martial of William Calley was an exercise in trying to find a way of not finding him guilty, despite the evidence. 

When your boss is an idiot and you cheerfully work under him, as did Powell, then you are no smarter. 

The President is the head of the military, of course generals fall in line. They may argue along the way, but in the end the Commander in Chief rules the day.