Kalbear Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said: Again, what could he actually have done to stop anything? His speech didn't start the war, he had no ability to stop it and if he resigned he would have just been replaced by a sycophant. He could have resigned and publicly stated that the intelligence we had did not indicate that Iraq had WMDs. I don't know that that would have been all that hard. Would it have stopped it? Probably not! But it certainly would have been something he could do instead of actively promoting it to the UN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Oh, ok, if we need to really understand the context... Did Powell learn anything from Mai Lai? Obviously not. No, sorry, "people were scared a d wanted to prevent another attack"... that's total bullshit. People might have been, but Powell knew better. eta: I dunno, but if I had the option of being complicit in a war that I don't support, and have no control over, then why the hell would I stick around for it? if I was so against it I'd probably not advocate for it at the fucking UN. eh, whatever, it was just one speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: No, it's not. It's important to understand what was driving a lot of actions that took place while also saying it doesn't justify the actions. People in the government were on high alert and were damned to not let another attack happen on their watch. This led to a lot of shitty behavior. It in no way justifies a lot of what went on, but it does help to better understand it. Powell, to my knowledge, didn't know a threat didn't exist. He was just skeptical while everyone around him was acting like it was a sure thing. And yes he did lie, or at least exaggerate the threat, and it's tarnished his legacy forever as it should. That does not however make him out to be the same kind of monster as those around him. DMC answered this. Because people are allowed time to grow. In both instances Powell did what you would hope any person would do, learn from their mistakes, admit to them, and try to help others not make the same ones they did. My real annoyance is the heavy-handed responses people are writing and saying, here and elsewhere. I don't like that a lot of people are talking about what a great guy he was while treating his speech like a speedbump, but please, at the same time stop pretending like his life story is just that speech and his time in the Administration while equating him to the worst actors in Bush's government when he clearly was trying to be the voice of reason in the room. Again, what could he actually have done to stop anything? His speech didn't start the war, he had no ability to stop it and if he resigned he would have just been replaced by a sycophant. Oh wait you think he wasn't a sycophant? How did he learn from any of this? He didn't learn shit from Vietnam and whitewashing Mai Lai. Instead he just helped greenlight another war. There were a few people who behaved more mosnter-like than him in the Iraq War. Is that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, DMC said: I don't understand this logic. The guy privately questioning the wisdom of invasion, the credibility of the intelligence, and insisting on international cooperation is the same as the guys engineering the war that he's arguing against? Again, there is no excuse for him going along with the bullshit intelligence and making that speech, but how far does this equality of responsibility due to complicity go? The rest of the cabinet? What about the 110 Democratic MCs that voted for the AUMF? Hell, how about the 195 Democratic MCs that voted for the Patriot Act? As Week said, this castigation is really getting overboard - as is comparing Colin Powell to the likes of Goering and Bormann because he made a bullshit speech. Isn’t Germany still trying to prosecute people for war crimes from WWII? They must be insane. https://www.npr.org/2021/09/30/1041821397/nazi-concentration-camp-secretary-flees-trial-irmgard-furchner Or is that fake news? It’s sometimes hard to tell these days. Poor Secretary. Wasn’t even Secretary of State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said: Did Powell learn anything from Mai Lai? Obviously not. Why are so many people spelling it Mai Lai in this thread. I've always seen it was My Lai, granted with a tilde on top of the y but I'm too lazy to do that. Am I missing something or are people here just subconsciously craving Mai Tais? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, DMC said: Why are so many people spelling it Mai Lai in this thread. I've always seen it was My Lai, granted with a tilde on top of the y but I'm too lazy to do that. Am I missing something or are people here just subconsciously craving Mai Tais? Entirely possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Isn’t Germany still trying to prosecute people for war crimes from WWII? They must be insane. How is this relevant? Are you saying Powell peddling false intelligence to try to garner support for invasion in a speech to the UN constitutes a war crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, DMC said: I don't understand this logic. The guy privately questioning the wisdom of invasion, the credibility of the intelligence, and insisting on international cooperation is the same as the guys engineering the war that he's arguing against? Again, there is no excuse for him going along with the bullshit intelligence and making that speech, but how far does this equality of responsibility due to complicity go? The rest of the cabinet? What about the 110 Democratic MCs that voted for the AUMF? Hell, how about the 195 Democratic MCs that voted for the Patriot Act? As Week said, this castigation is really getting overboard - as is comparing Colin Powell to the likes of Goering and Bormann because he made a bullshit speech. "The President is the head of the military, of course generals fall in line. They may argue along the way, but in the end the Commander in Chief rules the day." And to go back to the beginning. The bolded is the original thing I responded to with the Nuremburg reference. About how, "I was ordered to do so" is not an excuse. Anyone who has served in the military has been taught this. First in a class, and then in yearly CBTs as a reminder. War Crimes are War Crimes, and anyone in the U.S. military knows that saying "you were ordered to do so by a superior" isn't enough to protect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, A True Kaniggit said: And to go back to the beginning. The bolded is the original thing I responded to with the Nuremburg reference. About how, "I was ordered to do so" is not an excuse. I understand that and generally agree - I've said multiple times there's no excusing Powell for not resigning and going along with it. However, I responded to what you said at the beginning because I don't think it's appropriate to compare Colin Powell to the defendants at Nuremberg. And I still don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Kalsandra said: He could have resigned and publicly stated that the intelligence we had did not indicate that Iraq had WMDs. I don't know that that would have been all that hard. Easy to say on a message board without considering the mindset of someone in the military for that long. And you're acting like he had the information we have today back then. He had doubts, not proof that is was largely made up by the people he worked closely with. Quote Would it have stopped it? Probably not! But it certainly would have been something he could do instead of actively promoting it to the UN. No, it would absolutely not have stopped the war, in part because it's very unlikely he would have come out that strongly against it. It would have stopped nothing. All that we can conclude is that his reputation would be more intact and that the coalition would have possibly looked different. And we can also probably guess that the result would end up with a Bush Cabinet that would have been even more hardline. 2 hours ago, 1066 Larry said: Oh wait you think he wasn't a sycophant? He was the main voice of opposition in the room. That's a far cry from Trump's Cabinet meetings, for example. Quote How did he learn from any of this? He didn't learn shit from Vietnam and whitewashing Mai Lai. Instead he just helped greenlight another war. No, he did not. You're again ascribing way too much power to Powell here. And My Lai represents another failure on his part, no one disagrees with this, but again, this is why context matters. He did whitewash the events, by all accounts, hence why he's not a martyr. Quote There were a few people who behaved more mosnter-like than him in the Iraq War. Is that better? No. Powell is legitimately a great American. He's also imperfect, and when the moment called most for him he failed. badly. but that doesn't mean he deserves to get dragged like this less than 48 hours after he died. Save that shit for those who truly deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 Well Ty he's dead so you won't be able to vote for him for anything, you could always get a nice room poster of him or something. Maybe salute him before night, night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 9 hours ago, DMC said: Again, my issue is the equality of responsibility claim. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz (and Dubya of course) are clearly the people primarily responsible for pushing for war - as well as cooking up and disseminating the bullshit intelligence to sell it. Powell's role is comparatively inconsequential - precisely because he tried to fight against that faction, lost, and shamefully went along with it anyway. Standing up in the UN and saying something along the lines of, 'These people want me to tell you that Saddam Hussein has an arsenal of WMDs, ready to be deployed in forty-five minutes. Well, I am here to tell you that that is a barefaced lie.' Naïve as it might be, that's what actual fighting looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Again, what could he actually have done to stop anything? See post #161. I think that would have stopped the invasion in its tank tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Standing up in the UN and saying something along the lines of, 'These people want me to tell you that Saddam Hussein has an arsenal of WMDs, ready to be deployed in forty-five minutes. Well, I am here to tell you that that is a barefaced lie.' That's what fighting looks like. This isn't professional wrestling. Well, maybe it is for some people, but not for Powell - which isn't a bad thing. He either made that speech or he was gonna resign and express his misgivings. Obviously he should have done the latter and should be blamed for not doing so, but he was never gonna swerve the UN like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, DMC said: This isn't professional wrestling. Well, maybe it is for some people, but not for Powell - which isn't a bad thing. He either made that speech or he was gonna resign and express his misgivings. Obviously he should have done the latter and should be blamed for not doing so, but he was never gonna swerve the UN like that. You're right, it's not professional wresting. Powell was complicit in an illegal war that killed millions of people. A man of true integrity would have called out their lies. I say 'their' lies. But they also became 'his' lies. Not sure what his defence would have been at a hypothetical Nuremberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Spockydog said: No it's not professional wresting. Powell was complicit in an illegal war that killed millions of people. Where have I said he wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Spockydog said: I say 'their' lies. But they also became 'his' lies. Not sure what his defence would have been at a hypothetical Nuremberg. The overwhelming majority of the defendants at Nuremberg were at least indicted on either war crimes, crimes against humanity, or both. I strongly disagree with the implication Powell's speech to the UN constitutes either war crimes or crimes against humanity. Not to mention the rather disgusting comparison to the general conduct of literally every defendant at Nuremberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, DMC said: Where have I said he wasn't? With that comment it felt like you were minimizing the impact of Powell's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, DMC said: I strongly disagree with the implication Powell's speech to the UN constitutes either war crimes or crimes against humanity. Many people outside of America probably disagrees with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Spockydog said: With that comment it felt like you were minimizing the impact of Powell's actions. In comparison to Cheney et al.'s role(s), yes, I do think his impact was minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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