U.S. Politics / bounced checks and negative balances

[Centrist Simon Steele]

40 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Damn right not all boomers.  It was republicans -- who vote their political party, the party which by time of Nixon was already the fully owned subsidiary of the rich -- that did it, bought and paid for by the medical industry, weapons industry, the insurance industry, the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the banking industry, the media industry, and every other industry you can name.  The ones who vote time and time and time again against paying more, for more teachers, better schools, better training programs -- even having training programs, for skilled work? Who ram through bills to cut aid to children's food programs, who protect Hedgies and banks at every turn, and cut cut cut taxes?

So why not say that instead of lumping into one great batch people who were the first to talk about environment, going green, population reduction, expanding voting rights, the immigration programs, improving education FOR ALL, including daycare programs and pre-school, trying to do something about climate change -- because there were loads of 'boomers' who saw it coming and tried to do things -- but IT IS THE RICH USING THEIR TOOL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY that defeated or rolled back everything the Dems and those who voted for them managed to get through.

Get real.

 

 

Bill Clinton and that Democratic party were instrumental in cutting social safety nets, getting in bed with big industry, gutting school budgets, and so on. 

I'm sorry, but saying the Boomer generation as a whole cared about the environment is insane. They paid lip service to it, but they kept voting in politicians who promised to end government spending, government overreach, gutting the EPA, etc. I'm sorry, but that generation left us a true shit sandwich, and it was the Democratic party's shift into neoliberalism that hurt the most. We had no one standing up for the things we were losing.

Zorral, have you read Listen, Liberal by Thomas Frank? It's eye opening.

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

9 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Jimmy Carter was mocked as president for wearing a sweater and suggesting that people could turn the heat down. What a fiend. He also asked people if they had female religious leaders( with real power) He is known for Habitats for Humanity. 

 

Jimmy Carter isn't a Boomer though. He was mocked by the Boomers who demanded a "new" kind of Democrat such as Bill Clinton.

[HoodedCrow]

Maybe I just know a lot of D or environmentally conscious boomers. I thought Nixon was a criminal, and Reagan was demented. I thought the Kenneth Starr show was appallinng, and the Monica Lewinsky stuff was a good example of what not to do. I spotted the pointless Iraq war before the decider.

[DMC]

I think if you're gonna blame Boomers for the destruction of American politics over the past ~40 years, it can really only be in the presidents they elicited - Trump, Dubya, and even Clinton with his triangulation or "neoliberalism."  Hell even Obama is big disappointment to a lot of Captain Hindsight leftists.  However, it's very hard to blame Boomer voters for the breaking up of the New Deal-coalition/rise of Reaganism.  The Dems losing the South following the passage of the CRA/VRA was pretty predictable and can hardly be pinned on any one (or even two) generation.

Plus, of course, if you look at the age breakdown of presidential votes, it's hard to pin any responsibility on Boomers specifically for decades.  In fact, in 1980, it was younger voters - i.e. Boomers - that supported Carter far more than their older generations that voted for their beloved movie star.  Flash forward to 2000 and the election of Dubya, and there's hardly any difference between age groups and support - and was virtually an even split for everyone.

Really, in the history of polling it's only recently that large differences between generations can be identified.  In particular, the pronounced Democratic lean of Millennials and Gen Zers in the 2016 and 2020 elections.  Even then, there's not a huge difference between Boomers and Gen Xers.

[Liffguard]

Whilst not everything should ultimately be analysed in terms of class, generational cohort conflict as a concept is at best unhelpful and at worst a deliberate obfuscation of the vastly more pertinent class conflict.

[Durckad]

4 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Whilst not everything should ultimately be analysed in terms of class, generational cohort conflict as a concept is at best unhelpful and at worst a deliberate obfuscation of the vastly more pertinent class conflict.

Pfft, sounds like something a boomer would say.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/21/2021 at 8:25 PM, Starkess said:

In what world is 1.5 trillion of spending insignificant? There are some really good programs in that bill! Is it everything one might want? No, of course not. I'm especially disappointed about the gutting of the clean power initiatives. But holy fucking hell, it's not nothing and I sure as shit want it to pass!

Much of the left I find at least in America to be overly pessimistic at times—including myself.

It can be really demotivating to actually do anything.

The right has it’s pessimistic parts but they mostly still take every victory no matter how happenstance as vindication for their worldview. Even if they don’t win they’ll still act like they did and demand the opposition try to curry favor with them.

 

[Liffguard]

6 hours ago, Durckad said:

Pfft, sounds like something a boomer would say.

That's fair. I've always been a grumpy sixty five year old man in spirit.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

14 hours ago, DMC said:

I think if you're gonna blame Boomers for the destruction of American politics over the past ~40 years, it can really only be in the presidents they elicited - Trump, Dubya, and even Clinton with his triangulation or "neoliberalism."  Hell even Obama is big disappointment to a lot of Captain Hindsight leftists.  However, it's very hard to blame Boomer voters for the breaking up of the New Deal-coalition/rise of Reaganism.  The Dems losing the South following the passage of the CRA/VRA was pretty predictable and can hardly be pinned on any one (or even two) generation.

Plus, of course, if you look at the age breakdown of presidential votes, it's hard to pin any responsibility on Boomers specifically for decades.  In fact, in 1980, it was younger voters - i.e. Boomers - that supported Carter far more than their older generations that voted for their beloved movie star.  Flash forward to 2000 and the election of Dubya, and there's hardly any difference between age groups and support - and was virtually an even split for everyone.

Really, in the history of polling it's only recently that large differences between generations can be identified.  In particular, the pronounced Democratic lean of Millennials and Gen Zers in the 2016 and 2020 elections.  Even then, there's not a huge difference between Boomers and Gen Xers.

Oh, no--I am and will definitely blame Boomer voters. They've controlled the voting bloc my whole life. And they're getting real pissy at these younger generations ruining everything they worked so hard to ruin.

[HoodedCrow]

I have usually voted the way that you would have!

[DMC]

28 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Oh, no--I am and will definitely blame Boomer voters. They've controlled the voting bloc my whole life.

It's true that if we're going by generations they've been the "dominant" voting bloc for at least my entire life (I don't know how old you are, but I'm assuming it's pretty similar).  However, during that time their voting behavior has actually been marginally more liberal than the older generations (greatest and silent) and even only slightly more conservative than Gen X - to this day.  Given this lack in difference I think it's decidedly petty to put all the responsibility on one generation.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's true that if we're going by generations they've been the "dominant" voting bloc for at least my entire life (I don't know how old you are, but I'm assuming it's pretty similar).  However, during that time their voting behavior has actually been marginally more liberal than the older generations (greatest and silent) and even only slightly more conservative than Gen X - to this day.  Given this lack in difference I think it's decidedly petty to put all the responsibility on one generation.

Focusing on voting behavior misses the mark. As a generation, liberal or conservative, they did jack shit to prevent the looming climate crisis while running up the nations debt because they didn't want to pay for the government they wanted, and did so while degrading social services for generations to come. They were simply bad stewards of this country and it will take multiple generations to make up for their selfishness. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Focusing on voting behavior misses the mark.

Not when we're specifically talking about boomer voters.  If you wanna blame boomer politicians have at it, I already mentioned their disastrous presidents.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, DMC said:

Not when we're specifically talking about boomer voters.  If you wanna blame boomer politicians have at it, I already mentioned their disastrous presidents.

You also have to look at what type of Democrats they supported. It's too simplistic to just look at if they were Republicans or Democrats, and the results speak for themselves. 

[HoodedCrow]

Often, voters don’t have great choices. And then, there is the Ralph Nader fiasco.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

You also have to look at what type of Democrats they supported.

No I really don't.  Again, it's not as if the generations around them were pushing for significantly more leftist candidates - at least not until recently irt millennials and gen z.

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Often, voters don’t have great choices. And then, there is the Ralph Nader fiasco.

Would Nader voters have actually voted Dem if he didn't run?  Or would they have stayed home?  How many potential GOP voters voted Nader?

eta: And how many registered Dems voted for Bush?

[HoodedCrow]

Interesting question. The Nader voters that I knew were younger D’s. The older D’s didn’t want to split their vote in a close race, perhaps recalling Ross Perot. Gore was rather environmentally conscious, and he got half the vote.

[sologdin]

how many registered Dems voted for Bush?

in florida, as i recall it, more registered dems voted for bush than for nader.  we could therefore say that gore stole the election from himself.

[Gorn]

Also, Gore and Bush both ran to the center to such an extent that it was hard to distinguish their political positions, and an argument could be made that Gore's running mate, Lieberman, was actually to the right of Bush.

The Bush 2000 platform looks straight-up liberal from today's viewpoint, especially compared with present-day GOP.