PROPHECY+: forsaken

[EggBlue]

I thought it would be a good idea to go through all the prophecies and prophetic dreams/notions that there are in the series and guess what they mean... but they were so many that I got tired looking them up in the books! so let's go book by book

( by the way I start from the last material we got because they sound more fun to me)

 

Forsaken chapter alone has more mysterious prophecy-like things than the whole aGoT!

 

• here's Aeron's vision when he drinks shade of the evening but it's not like Dany's visions so I thought maybe it's mixed with Euron's glass candle?

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

“Never. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!”

“Why would I want that hard black rock? Brother, look again and see where I am seated.”

Aeron Damphair looked. The mound of skulls was gone. Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood. Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath. And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. Then, Euron Crow’s Eye laughed again, and the priest woke screaming in the bowels of Silence, as piss ran down his leg. It was only a dream, a vision born of foul black wine.

 

• and then this:

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

the woman has fiery hands so is it Dany? but with the description of the dwarves who bite and tear each other it feels like she and Euron play other people . so if Quaithe is fire related maybe that's her?

 

 

and then Euron shows up all in valerian steel and seems to be sacrificing pregnant Falia , Aeron and a bunch of other priests. so I guess this one explains all the gods behind him. he seems to use blood magic of all these "faiths". 

 

[Egged]

I think people really misunderstand Euron's goal. There will be no eldritch apocalypse. He isn't going to make himself be the Evil Dark Lord for all of the realms to rise against in union. Euron isn't stupid, he's not Ramsay. George has made it really clear that "Dark Lord" type characters are stupid tropes that he is going to challenge.

Quote

Roose: People fear you.
Ramsay: Good.
Roose: You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours.

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“Your victories are hollow. You cannot hold the Shields.”

“Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

If Euron summons anything, it is to destroy it and be celebrated as a hero.

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The ironborn shall be waves ... Not the great and lordly, but the simple folk, tillers of the soil and fishers of the sea. The captains and the kings raised Euron up, but the common folk shall tear him down. I shall go to Great Wyk, to Harlaw, to Orkmont, to Pyke itself. In every town and village shall my words be heard. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.

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“He’s your god as well,” insisted the Damphair. “And when you die, he will judge you harshly, Crow’s Eye. You will spend eternity as a sea slug, crawling on your belly eating shit. If you do not fear to kill your own blood, slit my throat and be done with me. I’m weary of your mad boastings.”

“Kill my own little brother? Blood of my blood, born of the loins of Quellon Greyjoy? And who would share my triumphs? Victory is sweeter with a loved one by your side.”

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The mutes and mongrels from the Silence threw open Euron's chests and spilled out his gifts before the captains and the kings. Then it was Hotho Harlaw the priest heard, as he filled his hands with gold. Gorold Goodbrother shouted out as well, and Erik Anvil-Breaker. "EURON! EURON! EURON!" The cry swelled, became a roar. "EURON! EURON! CROW'S EYE! EURON KING!" It rolled up Nagga's hill, like the Storm God rattling the clouds. "EURON! EURON! EURON! EURON! EURON! EURON!"

Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother's name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

And then when Euron is celebrated by the people throughout Westeros, Aeron will lose his faith.

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Jon did not deny it. "The Wall is no place for a woman."

"You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

"I know their names."

 

[chrisdaw]

Forsaken visions are rather straight-forward Euron foreshadowing. Euron is going to become a new god, he will ascend, he is going to do it by sacrificing a child of his own and dragon blood and blowing his horn which will allow him to second life Drogon. What a Euron second lifed Drogon will become is the Stone Beast of Dany's HOTU visions, part kraken, dragon and man, and he will become more water based as time goes on. He will roam Westeros, particularly along the Trident and enslave willing and unwilling worshippers by breathing his shadow-flame on them, he will be a plague upon the land. Eventually he will lose his wings and be condemned to the waters.

Aeron is going to drown but not stay drowned, his god is not a lie, he will second life a leviathan (whale), that's what the drowned god's watery hall is, a life within a whale, and the Drowned God's visage a cross between a drowned man and a whale.

The Stone Beast and the Drowned God will eventually meet in battle under the waves, and the Drowned God will have his revenge.

[EggBlue]

wow you seem so sure @chrisdaw   he will be an extremely powerful man by the sacrifices and blood magic.. but a god? I guess you could call a person that powerful a god though I don't think there would be any second life involved for Euron needs to sit the iron throne to fulfil the first vision. as for drowned god or any other god , I doubt we ever get any clarification that they are real or anything ( like you said for Aeron second life) . but they seem to be different forms of magic that people have come to worship over the years... if you think about it ,it's not that different in our world . all the gods people have been worshipping come from the things people didn't understand. like Zeus god of thunder or even our God being the explanation of everything we don't know (eg. start of the world) . in ASOIAF world magic is a part of world . a misunderstood element so it explains why magic people use actually works if faiths emerge from unknown magical features. 

9 hours ago, Egged said:

I think people really misunderstand Euron's goal. There will be no eldritch apocalypse. He isn't going to make himself be the Evil Dark Lord for all of the realms to rise against in union. Euron isn't stupid, he's not Ramsay. George has made it really clear that "Dark Lord" type characters are stupid tropes that he is going to challenge.

I agree. but what do you think he wants? to be the king ? or something else? 

and by the way am I the only one intrigued with the woman figure in second vision??  who is she???

9 hours ago, Egged said:

Jon did not deny it. "The Wall is no place for a woman."

"You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

"I know their names."

this quote makes me wonder that Wall is a sinister thing and whatever Euron's doing now will parallel the construction of the Wall 

[chrisdaw]

24 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

wow you seem so sure @chrisdaw   he will be an extremely powerful man by the sacrifices and blood magic.. but a god? I guess you could call a person that powerful a god though I don't think there would be any second life involved for Euron needs to sit the iron throne to fulfil the first vision. as for drowned god or any other god , I doubt we ever get any clarification that they are real or anything ( like you said for Aeron second life) . but they seem to be different forms of magic that people have come to worship over the years...

Valyrians second lifed dragons, when you understand that this passage on godhood makes sense. GRRM has Varamyr think that dying and becoming a Dire Wolf would be like becoming a king, well what would becoming a dragon be? It is ascendancy, the dragons are literally named gods.

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Some scholars have suggested that the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, believing themselves to be more powerful than any god or goddess. They looked upon priests and temples as relics of a more primitive time, though useful for placating "slaves, savages, and the poor" with promises of a better life to come.

The Valyrian dragonlords didn't need faith in a religion to promise them a better second life, because they knew exactly what their second life would be, life as a dragon, the most fearsome beasts in the world with life spans many times that of humans.

Euron is going to do what the Valyrians have always done, that is what his Valyrian horn does, the one that is the cover of the Winds of Winter. Dragonbinder - "no mortal man may sound me and live." What good is a horn that kills you when you blow it? Answer is one that grants you something in death. It is what Dany did by accident, it takes a child sacrifice to work. Dead dragon blooded Rhaego, dead dad Drogo = Drogon who is the dragon version of Drogo.

Euron has some understanding of things. That's why he's testing the horn, getting autopsies done on the blower, contemplating the consequences, the risks, leaping off a tower (suicide) to try and fly (become a dragon/god). It's going to take a sacrifice of his own dragon blooded child he understands, one worthy of Drogon, his own little Rhaego, that's why he needs Dany. Falia is a test run for Dany, and Aeron is standing in for Euron. The child in Falia isn't Aeron's but it is his blood, Ironborn blood, and it's death will grant Aeron passage into an ocean beast.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, EggBlue said:

A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.”

I think Euron believes that he will be the new god born from graves and charnel pits and intends to make himself into a god. However, I think this part of the prophecy refers to Bran.  A charnel pit is a massive repository of bones. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The light dwindled again. Small as she was, the child-who-was-not-a-child moved quickly when she wanted. As Hodor thumped after her, something crunched beneath his feet. His halt was so sudden that Meera and Jojen almost slammed into his back.

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

  

[Mourning Star]

I do not think God's exist in the traditional sense in ASoIaF.

We already learned the Old Gods are the dead gone down into the trees, essentially a version of ancestor worship with elements of animalism associated.

The Seven are ideal aspects of humanity portrayed using a pseudo Christian motif

R'hlooo and the Great O are dualistic portrayals of forces of nature.

The Drowned God is an embodiment of the unfathomable.

I would suggest a few things.

First, that the woman is Melisandre.

"Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say … but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister."

Melisandre embodies the misguided belief in a dualistic, black and white, good vs evil worldview.

Euron is a godless man, exactly because he no longer believes in the gods. This isn't inherently wrong, but rather Euron the man uses this in the wrong way, seeking to take authority and power for himself (The Iron Throne is a fantastic example of right through might) but lacking all morality. The magical beasts of the world bow to him on his man made throne of dead gods, he seeks the power attributed to godhood, but devoid of morality.

These two extremes are both flawed. Morality is not about good vs evil, and a lack of gods does not mean there is no morality, or that morality is entirely relative. I think this will end up being Euron's undoing, and if I'm speculating wildly, I would love to see him die impaled on the literal iron throne.

[EggBlue]

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would suggest a few things.

First, that the woman is Melisandre.

Melisandre embodies the misguided belief in a dualistic, black and white, good vs evil worldview.

Euron is a godless man, exactly because he no longer believes in the gods. This isn't inherently wrong, but rather Euron the man uses this in the wrong way, seeking to take authority and power for himself (The Iron Throne is a fantastic example of right through might) but lacking all morality. The magical beasts of the world bow to him on his man made throne of dead gods, he seeks the power attributed to godhood, but devoid of morality.

yes Mel came in to my mind as well. but the way I saw it when I read the chapter it felt like that woman is an ally of Euron. I doubt Mel and Euron could ever be allies in a traditional sense but it could be argued that with their extremes they both bring about death of innocent. but still I don't know.... what do you think?

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

These two extremes are both flawed. Morality is not about good vs evil, and a lack of gods does not mean there is no morality, or that morality is entirely relative. I think this will end up being Euron's undoing, and if I'm speculating wildly, I would love to see him die impaled on the literal iron throne.

it would be a good picture!

[Falcon2909]

23 hours ago, Egged said:

I think people really misunderstand Euron's goal. There will be no eldritch apocalypse. He isn't going to make himself be the Evil Dark Lord for all of the realms to rise against in union. Euron isn't stupid, he's not Ramsay. George has made it really clear that "Dark Lord" type characters are stupid tropes that he is going to challenge.

 

Euron is already an evil dark lord. He has the gift of greensight, valyrian steel armor, magic, support of the Ironborn, and he will ride a resurrected dragon.

[Falcon2909]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:51 AM, EggBlue said:

the woman has fiery hands so is it Dany? but with the description of the dwarves who bite and tear each other it feels like she and Euron play other people . so if Quaithe is fire related maybe that's her?

Could be Melisandre or Cersei.

 

Melisandre because: Once Stannis dies in Winterfell she has no hero. Then she hears of this epic king known as the crows eye who has taken over Oldtown, smashed the redwyne/hightower fleets with the help of krakens, has valyrian artifacts + armor. She will be drawn to his power and will believe him to be azor ahai reborn.

Cersei because: If we follow season 7/8 of the show, Cersei flees to Casterly Rock after faegon takes KL. She needs to win back the crown. after the Reach abandons her and the stormlands gone to aegon she forges an alliance with this powerful new king Euron.

[Egged]

49 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Could be Melisandre or Cersei.

If it's Mel then the theory that Euron will take over Jon's body and lead the Night's Watch (red eye crowned by crows = Night's King type of figure) is somewhat likely. She could be his Corpse Bride, who he would likely eventually sacrifice. She would get a "king" who is not afraid of doing anything whatsoever, and like Old Nan said the Night's King was fearless. Only Euron is as fearless. Mel would get to make plenty of shadow babies.

Chances are Euron would eventually forge some Lightbringer-type of weapon and beat the Others into submission.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

I think the shadow woman is meant to symbolize the Others.  The Others has been described as shadows.  Paraphrasing here, but it has been said in the books that nothing burns like the cold. Also Jojen also mentioned "Ice can burn..."  This would explain why the shadow woman has fiery hands.  

I think the dwarves are meant to symbolize Dany and Aegon as they wage the Second Dance of the Dragons. 

[EggBlue]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:45 AM, Egged said:

Chances are Euron would eventually forge some Lightbringer-type of weapon and beat the Others into submission.

that is... dark

19 hours ago, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

I think the shadow woman is meant to symbolize the Others.  The Others has been described as shadows.  Paraphrasing here, but it has been said in the books that nothing burns like the cold. Also Jojen also mentioned "Ice can burn..."  This would explain why the shadow woman has fiery hands.  

that's an interesting way to see it. I always imagined her to be an agent of fire... whoever she is. but with ice she could be the ice queen ( either a person or as you said representative of the others , their mother or something)

19 hours ago, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

I think the dwarves are meant to symbolize Dany and Aegon as they wage the Second Dance of the Dragons. 

I don't know... could be Aegon and Dany but in the sentence it's more like there are more than 2 dwarves....isn't it? ... some dwarves from both genders fighting the petty fight of thrones as Euron and the woman laugh at them since they plan to use the opportunity at hand...

 

anyways .. does anyone here think that the second dance won't be between Dany and YG? Martin himself said there will be the second dance ,right? and having two allegedly Targs in the story, it seems too obvious to have a dance of dragons between those two... so don't you think it'll be different? like between Dany and Euron with a stolen dragon? or between dragonless Aegon and dragon-thief Euron before Dany arrives? they will be some kind of war between dragons too.

[Rondo]

Euron is delusional. Aerion was being fed those visions.  He was selling his dreams of becoming a god to his brother.  He will have to destroy the existing religions in order to do that.  Which means destroying faith.  The woman beside him is a shadow binder.  I do not think it's Mel.  It isn't Quaithe.  She is probably the dusky woman.  

I hope Aerion survives.  I don't like the Drowned God and its followers but this is a test of faith for Aerion.  He could prove to be a very, very interesting character.  He and Asha could team up to fight Euron.  

There are others on Westeros who want to sit on the iron throne.  Tommen, Cersei, Stannis, and Aegon to name a few.  Euron has a lot to do before he can break ahead of the line.  He doesn't have a clear path to the throne. 

Euron's role in the story is to entertain the readers with a climactic sea battle that will determine the future of the ironborn.  His adversary will need to have experience in naval battles.  The only ones with the resume are Saladhor, Asha G, Stannis, Vic, and Daavos.  I am doubtful whether he will even get near the iron throne.  But he will cut a path of destruction while trying.  

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/14/2021 at 8:51 PM, EggBlue said:

the woman has fiery hands so is it Dany?

I never got the impression that Dany was tall.  But I can't find any textual support for that, so I could be wrong.  Melisandre is tall, for whatever that is worth.

[Mister Smikes]

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Euron is delusional.

About being a god?  Sure.  He's just another deranged puppet of the many-faced god of death.  But GRRM means the apocalyptic threat to be real.

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

I hope Aerion survives. 

Same here.

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

I don't like the Drowned God and its followers but this is a test of faith for Aerion. 

He seems to have passed it with flying colors.  Tied to a mast after months of torment, and his first thought is to turn to Falia and try to comfort her.  I'm turning into a fan of this guy.

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Euron has a lot to do before he can break ahead of the line.  He doesn't have a clear path to the throne. 

The path he has planned obviously involves Dany and her Dragons.

13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Euron's role in the story is to entertain the readers with a climactic sea battle that will determine the future of the ironborn. 

Euron does not give a damn about the Ironborn or their future.  The climactic battle he is currently heading for is in Slavers' Bay.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

Melisandre embodies the misguided belief in a dualistic, black and white, good vs evil worldview.

The problem with dualistic religions is that they promote a by-any-means-necessary ethic.  Which is why Mel has no problem with human sacrifice and the murder of children.  The Faith of the Seven is not dualistic, and is instead loosly modelled on medieval christianity, a monotheistic (but not dualistic) religion.  The Faith of the Seven does have a concept of good and evil, though.

On 10/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

These two extremes are both flawed. Morality is not about good vs evil, and a lack of gods does not mean there is no morality, or that morality is entirely relative.

Unclear what you are trying to say here.  Morality is about good and evil by definition.  Otherwise the word is meaningless.

 

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

The Valyrian dragonlords didn't need faith in a religion to promise them a better second life, because they knew exactly what their second life would be, life as a dragon, the most fearsome beasts in the world with life spans many times that of humans.

So, in the end. Valyrian lords are mortal just like anyone else.  They just live a little longer, in one form or another.

On 10/15/2021 at 8:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

Euron is going to do what the Valyrians have always done, that is what his Valyrian horn does, the one that is the cover of the Winds of Winter. Dragonbinder - "no mortal man may sound me and live." What good is a horn that kills you when you blow it? Answer is one that grants you something in death.

Yes, the thought did occur to me that Tyrion might be forced to blow the dragonhorn and end up second-living as a dragon.

On 10/15/2021 at 8:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

The child in Falia isn't Aeron's but it is his blood, Ironborn blood, and it's death will grant Aeron passage into an ocean beast.

The child in Falia is Euron's, and Euron is a king.  King's blood has power in blood magic, apparently.

[Mister Smikes]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

The Seven are ideal aspects of humanity portrayed using a pseudo Christian motif

That's more or less accurate, I think.

The Faith of the Seven is basically Medieval Catholicism, a religion GRRM sort-of likes, altered through the modern lenses of agnostic secular humanism, and New Age neopaganism.  He basically took the idea of Three Persons in One God, expanded it to 7 persons in one god, filled out the 7 by adding the Maiden, Mother and Crone from neopagan Goddess worship; and made it more humanistic by focusing on the idea that most of the aspects of God are human archtypes.

Although GRRM has given the Faith of the Seven lots of warts and flaws, especially as embodied by its leaders and practitioners, I think he is more or less on its side, at least compared to all the other religions.  The Septons are the ones who oppose human sacrifice, and do not think one should be allowed to throw dwarfs into the sea.

On 10/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

R'hlooo and the Great O are dualistic portrayals of forces of nature.

I have this idea that Rh'llor, the Great Other, the Lion of Night, the Storm God, and maybe the Drowned God too, are all (or can appear as) aspects of the many-faced god of death.  They are all on the same team -- the destruction of humanity -- and their followers are dupes.

On 10/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Mourning Star said:

The Drowned God is an embodiment of the unfathomable.

As seen through Aeron's eyes, he has an almost Christlike aspect to him.  And in Aeron's vision, the Drowned God is one of the victims of the God of Death, rather than one of its aspects.

 

[Mourning Star]

On 10/15/2021 at 4:22 PM, EggBlue said:

I doubt Mel and Euron could ever be allies in a traditional sense but it could be argued that with their extremes they both bring about death of innocent. but still I don't know.... what do you think?

I’m not so sure they are so different.

I think Melisandre will have a crisis of faith after Stannis falls, and will end up supporting Euron. No real hero would want her help, with her “ends justify the means” methods anyway. From a story telling perspective it’s easy to see how Mel could get on a ship and fall into his hands, then she ends up backing him because she’s desperate for a new savior to back. I have to imagine a shadow baby gets sent after a main character at some point!