Westeros's Linguistic differences

[Hugorfonics]

15 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Does that really seem like a fair analogy to you? I would add that when this Edmontonian went to South Carolina a few years back I had all kinds of problems communicating in English with some of the English speaking locals.

Yea sure. It's been a few thousand years since the Andals came with their language and it's written word. People seem to enjoy it, ravens too.

14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Even with the Normans and English, the Norman conquest of England changed the English language a lot. 

Did Aegon speak Valarian or common? What about his kids?

14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Dorne especially should've had more of a Rhoynar linguistic influence following this example.

It does

Quote

"How could you tell I was of noble birth?"

"The same way you can tell that I'm half Dornish." The statement was delivered with a smile, in a soft Dornish drawl.

 

[Vaolor]

On 10/15/2021 at 4:27 PM, Hugorfonics said:

How come an Alaskan north of the Canada is perfectly able to understand and communicate in the "English" with someone all the way down in Miami. In real life this is possible 

That's not comparable though. The reason English is so widespread is because of modern mass media and standard education along with mass communication all of which serves to homogenize a language. Westeros has none of this though. 

In the actual medieval period there was an extreme amount of linguistic diversity, so much so that a person from southern France could hardly communicate with another person in the north of France. The reason for this is because most people would live their entire lives in a 20 mile area and only ever communicate with nearby villages during harvest festivals or trading. This would result in a dialect continuum where the further you went away from some place the less and less intelligible dialects would be.  

Even medieval England had more language diversity than Westeros and England was 20-30x smaller. The dialects in midlands and northern England were heavily influenced by Norse settlers while southern England didn't have much Norse influence. This goes without saying that Scotland spoke a completely different language which wasn't even Germanic same as Wales, and Cornwall which all spoke Celtic languages and even then these languages weren't entirely intelligible with each other and had dialects of their own.

EDIT:

A more apt comparison could be the spread of Latin during the Roman Empire but even then Latin was not so homogenous a language that everyone in the Roman Empire spoke it. Latin even diverged with time such that Spanish, French, Italian, and Romanian are all descended from Latin which would have realistically happened to the "common tongue" if it was brought to Westeros by the Andals 4 or 2 thousand years ago and North shouldn't even speak the "common tongue" because they were never even conquered like the First Men of the south.

[Jaenara Belarys]

23 minutes ago, Vaolor said:

In the actual medieval period there was an extreme amount of linguistic diversity, so much so that a person from southern France could hardly communicate with another person in the north of France. The reason for this is because most people would live their entire lives in a 20 mile area and only ever communicate with nearby villages during harvest festivals or trading. This would result in a dialect continuum where the further you went away from some place the less and less intelligible dialects would be.  

 

An example of this would be in 13th century France, with the langue d'Oc in the Midi (southern France) and the langue d'oil (the forerunner of modern French apparently) in the northern parts of France. 

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

In the actual medieval period there was an extreme amount of linguistic diversity, so much so that a person from southern France could hardly communicate with another person in the north of France. The reason for this is because most people would live their entire lives in a 20 mile area and only ever communicate with nearby villages during harvest festivals or trading. This would result in a dialect continuum where the further you went away from some place the less and less intelligible dialects would be.  

 

An accent is a different thing from actually having an effect on the language, I think. 

[The Young Maester]

56 minutes ago, Vaolor said:

This goes without saying that Scotland spoke a completely different language which wasn't even Germanic

The Scotts spoke the language of the Scotts, which was a Germanic language heavily influenced by English. Gaelic was only spoken in the highlands by the original Gaelic settlers. The Britons and Anglo Saxon settlers in the lowlands began speaking a new dialect of old English called lowlander Scott.

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, Vaolor said:

That's not comparable though. The reason English is so widespread is because of modern mass media and standard education along with mass communication all of which serves to homogenize a language. Westeros has none of this though. 

In the actual medieval period there was an extreme amount of linguistic diversity, so much so that a person from southern France could hardly communicate with another person in the north of France. The reason for this is because most people would live their entire lives in a 20 mile area and only ever communicate with nearby villages during harvest festivals or trading. This would result in a dialect continuum where the further you went away from some place the less and less intelligible dialects would be.  

Even medieval England had more language diversity than Westeros and England was 20-30x smaller. The dialects in midlands and northern England were heavily influenced by Norse settlers while southern England didn't have much Norse influence. This goes without saying that Scotland spoke a completely different language which wasn't even Germanic same as Wales, and Cornwall which all spoke Celtic languages and even then these languages weren't entirely intelligible with each other and had dialects of their own.

EDIT:

A more apt comparison could be the spread of Latin during the Roman Empire but even then Latin was not so homogenous a language that everyone in the Roman Empire spoke it. Latin even diverged with time such that Spanish, French, Italian, and Romanian are all descended from Latin which would have realistically happened to the "common tongue" if it was brought to Westeros by the Andals 4 or 2 thousand years ago and North shouldn't even speak the "common tongue" because they were never even conquered like the First Men of the south.

Thing is, Westeros isn't medieval England or ancient Rome. 

12 hours ago, Vaolor said:

The reason English is so widespread is because of modern mass media and standard education along with mass communication all of which serves to homogenize a language. Westeros has none of this though. 

It kinda does, mass media no but some stupid song about a bear, yea! No standard education,  but there is an education to be had at the citadel and there straight up is mass communication with the ravens and their messages 

 

12 hours ago, Vaolor said:

A more apt comparison could be the spread of Latin during the Roman Empire but even then Latin was not so homogenous a language that everyone in the Roman Empire spoke it. Latin even diverged with time such that Spanish, French, Italian, and Romanian are all descended from Latin which would have realistically happened to the "common tongue" if it was brought to Westeros by the Andals 4 or 2 thousand years ago and North shouldn't even speak the "common tongue" because they were never even conquered like the First Men of the south.

Again there's some alarming differences, mainly yes we're talking about 2 to 4 thousand years since the Andals came with their words that can be written down while the Romans only ran shit for like 400 years.

A thousand years of reading the same little notes on a ravens will cement the language in place, and while the North aren't Andles, they do acknowledge that the Andal language is better then whatever noise Leaf makes. It can be written without runes,  it rhymes Reek and sneak, its great! 

Same with free folk, the common tongue is just better then the old one. Now North of freefolk, like the Thenns. It's weird they speak common since they have like zero interactions with the rest of Westeros, unlike everyone else with their tourneys ravens and Maesters

[frenin]

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

A thousand years of reading the same little notes on a ravens will cement the language in place, and while the North aren't Andles, they do acknowledge that the Andal language is better then whatever noise Leaf makes. It can be written without runes,  it rhymes Reek and sneak, its great! 

If we're trying to be judgey no. It makes sense, sorta... well not really, that the nobles might have learnt Andal language.

But the illiterate peasants of Winterfell?? Bear Island or Dreadfort?? The North is already big enough for there to be a different languages anyway. 

It's simply the laws of the Universe, Westeros is also a quite tolerant place compared to our world, especially the North. It's the story the author wanted to tell.

[Hugorfonics]

39 minutes ago, frenin said:

If we're trying to be judgey no. It makes sense, sorta... well not really, that the nobles might have learnt Andal language

I think its reasonable

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

But the illiterate peasants of Winterfell?? Bear Island or Dreadfort?? The North is already big enough for there to be a different languages anyway. 

The peasants of Winterfell and such spend their whole lives a stones throw away from their Common Tounge speaking overlords, for thousands of years, it makes sense they speak the same language. 

The non free folk Wildlings though, sure, that's peculiar.  (So the Thenns and the indigenous in the Vale)

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The peasants of Winterfell and such spend their whole lives a stones throw away from their Common Tounge speaking overlords, for thousands of years, it makes sense they speak the same language. 

The non free folk Wildlings though, sure, that's peculiar.  (So the Thenns and the indigenous in the Vale)

But why would the peasants of Winterfell talk in the common tongue, a foreign language to them, between them?? And why would their overlords talk in that language to them?? 

Why would I start talking to you on Arabic one day knowing you just don't know it?? Winterfell's domains are huge and so is the North. It's quite difficult to believe that peasants would willingly change their custom for a lord they do not see.

And the very fact that the Old Tongue disappeared given the little interaction Northerners and southerners had is just wild. God's plan wild.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Imagine how much longer it would take to write the books if great attention was given to the use of interpreters and multiple dialects. Martin calls it well, IMHO. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

On 10/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, Falcon2909 said:

How come a wildling north of the Wall is perfectly able to understand and communicate in the 'common tongue' with someone all the way down in Sunspear? In real life this would not be possible! 

wait in what instance

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

But why would the peasants of Winterfell talk in the common tongue, a foreign language to them, between them?? And why would their overlords talk in that language to them?? 

Why would I start talking to you on Arabic one day knowing you just don't know it?? Winterfell's domains are huge and so is the North. It's quite difficult to believe that peasants would willingly change their custom for a lord they do not see.

And the very fact that the Old Tongue disappeared given the little interaction Northerners and southerners had is just wild. God's plan wild.

 

Word. Idk, maybe blame it on the grey rats? They thought speaking the same tounge as a skinchanged raven was creepy

You know whats strange, the Blackgate. It only opens to Sam's words, but he spoke in Common not in the old tounge, which presumably was what Brandon the Builders wizards spoke

[Falcon2909]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Idk, maybe blame it on the grey rats? They thought speaking the same tounge as a skinchanged raven was creepy

You know whats strange, the Blackgate. It only opens to Sam's words, but he spoke in Common not in the old tounge, which presumably was what Brandon the Builders wizards spoke

I thought the common tongue was the language of the andals brought in thousands of years later.

Why would brandon - a first man who presumably spoke the old tongue - allow the blackgate to respond to a language never spoken in westeros before?

[frenin]

On 10/18/2021 at 5:07 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Idk, maybe blame it on the grey rats? They thought speaking the same tounge as a skinchanged raven was creepy

I can see how the grey rats would influence a few dozen nobles... It's a mystery how could they influence millions of illiterate peasants.

 

On 10/18/2021 at 5:07 AM, Hugorfonics said:

You know whats strange, the Blackgate. It only opens to Sam's words, but he spoke in Common not in the old tounge, which presumably was what Brandon the Builders wizards spoke

I have not thought about this lol. Martin really aims for convenience. That or Brandon the Builder was the og Google translator.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I can see how the grey rats would influence a few dozen nobles... It's a mystery how could they influence millions of illiterate peasants.

Couple thousand years, lots of time to unravel mysteries. 

It's far fetched to be sure. It makes less sense then like, Tyrion pushing the stone man off of Aegon, but more sense then the existence of said stone men.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I have not thought about this lol. Martin really aims for convenience. That or Brandon the Builder was the og Google translator.

 

On 10/18/2021 at 1:16 AM, Falcon2909 said:

I thought the common tongue was the language of the andals brought in thousands of years later.

Why would brandon - a first man who presumably spoke the old tongue - allow the blackgate to respond to a language never spoken in westeros before?

Well, aside from me, everyone says it's ridiculous that this maesters world shares a language. Ok, what about the non maesters world?

It's like Gandalfs bigoted door. Speak "friend" and enter, not everyone speaks elvish Mr. Door. Such as friendly Bagginses.

So the Wall incorporates all Sunset folk, Reachmen and Northerners, Ironborn and salty Dornish. It's like elves and Hobbits, anyway in conclusion, the old tongue was probably the old tounges. And Brandon the Builders wizards (I don't believe in Brandon the Builder, btw...) were more woke then Gandalfs monolingustic door and able to hear the NW words in whatever native language the crow squawks

[Willam Stark]

Plot convenience.

Realistically speaking, we would have a dozen languages per kingdom, derived from the tongue spoken by the early Andals in South (I will call it Andalish), Old Tongue in the North and Rhoynish in Dorne. The Common Tongue, which is a modern Andalish, would only be spoken as a native language by the nobility, the inhabitants of King's Landing and Oldtown. 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Plot convenience.

Realistically speaking, we would have a dozen languages per kingdom, derived from the tongue spoken by the early Andals in South (I will call it Andalish), Old Tongue in the North and Rhoynish in Dorne. The Common Tongue, which is a modern Andalish, would only be spoken as a native language by the nobility, the inhabitants of King's Landing and Oldtown. 

I don't know about a dozen languages per kingdom.

But for the North? Certainly dozens.

The Starks, the other major lords of the North (i.e. Boltons, Dustins, Umbers, etc.) and most of the Watch should all be able to speak, read and write in the Old Tongue. There might be a common language for each regional lordship which would be the primary (and sometimes maybe even only) language of the smallfolk. The northern mountain clans should all be speaking different bastard offshoots of the Old Tongue but they would all be illiterate. Beyond the Wall, everyone is speaking the origina Old Tongue but in different iterations and dialects. I think you would have a language for each tribe which puts it at about 100 beyond the Wall.

The crannogmen would be speaking a version of the Old Tongue so queer that it would sound nothing like it. Maybe a descendant of the True Tongue? They would use the same writing system as the other northmen though. 

Outside of that, I see this:

• four for Dorne (Common Tongue for everyone, pure Rhoynish=orphans of the Greenblood, heavy Rhoynish/Andal mix=salty and sandy Dornish, Andal/First Men/Rhoynish mix=stony Dornish)
• one for the Iron Islands
• two (three max) for the Vale -- Old Tongue for the mountain clans, the purest forms of Andal for everyone else
• four for the Riverlands (one of them being shared with a language spoken in the Crownlands
• one for the Westerlands
• seven to ten for the Reach
• one for the Stormlands
• three for the Crownlands (High Valyrian, Common Tongues of Westeros and Essos, native Crownlands tongue)

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know about a dozen languages per kingdom.

But for the North? Certainly dozens.

The Starks, the other major lords of the North (i.e. Boltons, Dustins, Umbers, etc.) and most of the Watch should all be able to speak, read and write in the Old Tongue. There might be a common language for each regional lordship which would be the primary (and sometimes maybe even only) language of the smallfolk. The northern mountain clans should all be speaking different bastard offshoots of the Old Tongue but they would all be illiterate. Beyond the Wall, everyone is speaking the origina Old Tongue but in different iterations and dialects. I think you would have a language for each tribe which puts it at about 100 beyond the Wall.

The crannogmen would be speaking a version of the Old Tongue so queer that it would sound nothing like it. Maybe a descendant of the True Tongue? They would use the same writing system as the other northmen though. 

Outside of that, I see this:

• four for Dorne (Common Tongue for everyone, pure Rhoynish=orphans of the Greenblood, heavy Rhoynish/Andal mix=salty and sandy Dornish, Andal/First Men/Rhoynish mix=stony Dornish)
• one for the Iron Islands
• two (three max) for the Vale -- Old Tongue for the mountain clans, the purest forms of Andal for everyone else
• four for the Riverlands (one of them being shared with a language spoken in the Crownlands
• one for the Westerlands
• seven to ten for the Reach
• one for the Stormlands
• three for the Crownlands (High Valyrian, Common Tongues of Westeros and Essos, native Crownlands tongue)

why so many for the reach though? because of all the trade?

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/17/2021 at 7:40 AM, HoodedCrow said:

Imagine how much longer it would take to write the books if great attention was given to the use of interpreters and multiple dialects. Martin calls it well, IMHO. 

Plus, he's not Tolkien who made up his languages himself apparently. 

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

why so many for the reach though? because of all the trade?

Two reasons:

1. the size of the Reach: it's the second largest region in Westeros by a relatively large margin
2. the fact that the Reach was originally a bunch of smaller kingdoms before being united into one bigger kingdom by the Gardeners. The Hightowers, the Rowans, the Tarlys, the Florents, the Redwynes, etc. all ruled their own lands as kings for a relatively long period of time.

[The Young Maester]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Two reasons:

1. the size of the Reach: it's the second largest region in Westeros by a relatively large margin
2. the fact that the Reach was originally a bunch of smaller kingdoms before being united into one bigger kingdom by the Gardeners. The Hightowers, the Rowans, the Tarlys, the Florents, the Redwynes, etc. all ruled their own lands as kings for a relatively long period of time.

And the reach is basically the France of Westeros, but much larger. And in France you had gascons, Occitan, normans, and Bretons.