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TWOW and Today's Social Climate


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On 2/26/2022 at 3:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but the very idea that a continent the size of Westeros would have no major bank of their own is laughable. Every large city of Westeros should have their own bank, the Targaryens would *never* borrow money from the Braavosi or the other Free Cities if they had other options, etc.

The very idea that the Lannisters who sit on a huge heap of gold wouldn't use that vast wealth to establish the Golden Bank of Lannisport or Casterly Rock is completely ridiculous. Not to mention that the abundance of gold in the West would have led to many a commoner from Lannisport to establish their own banks and moneylending enterprises, possibly even rivaling their rulers as time passes.

We hear about the Lannisters actually acting as moneylenders (Lord Tytos gives a lot of loans but never demands them back) but it is never institutionalized, nor is there any conflicts among the rich commoners of Lannisport - which must exist - and the Western nobility jealously guarding their privileges against upjumped merchants and the like.

Maybe banking with interest rates or "usury" is considered religiously immoral in Westeros by the Faith of the Seven, in the same way that it was by the Catholic/Protestant church in real-world Medieval Europe, where basically only jews could make a lot of money from banking due to this.

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10 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Maybe banking with interest rates or "usury" is considered religiously immoral in Westeros by the Faith of the Seven, in the same way that it was by the Catholic/Protestant church in real-world Medieval Europe, where basically only jews could make a lot of money from banking due to this.

Medieval people were flexible about usury.  Italy had banking as early as the 13th century, and Germany shortly afterwards.  The Jews were unimportant, compared to companies like the Bardi and Peruzzi.

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On 2/28/2022 at 11:56 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

Maybe banking with interest rates or "usury" is considered religiously immoral in Westeros by the Faith of the Seven, in the same way that it was by the Catholic/Protestant church in real-world Medieval Europe, where basically only jews could make a lot of money from banking due to this.

That is definitely not the case since Lady Sam founds the Bank of Oldtown with the help of one of Lotho Rogare at the very end of FaB. We don't know if the bank still exists, of course, since it was never mentioned in the main series, but the very fact that the Hightowers of Oldtown actually did found a bank means that the Faith had no issues with the banking business.

Also, of course, the Faith itself also acts as a kind of bank when they loan the Iron Throne about a million gold dragons.

On 3/1/2022 at 10:04 AM, SeanF said:

Medieval people were flexible about usury.  Italy had banking as early as the 13th century, and Germany shortly afterwards.  The Jews were unimportant, compared to companies like the Bardi and Peruzzi.

Yes, and in context it makes absolutely no sense that you have urbanization and monetary economy (in some regions) but no moneylending enterprises at all - which is basically the apparent status quo throughout the main books. I'm not sure most of the trading stuff could work if there was no banking/moneylending infrastructure in place. And the implication given in AFfC that the Iron Throne would basically allow the Braavosi to dominate the banking business in Westeros (indicated by the fact that the Iron Bank calls in a lot of loans in response to Cersei's refusal to meet their demands, which becomes a serious issue) is completely unrealistic. The Braavosi are a powerful naval force, but nobody would hand the banking business to a foreign power unless they forced them to do so at gunpoint - and the Braavosi never had that kind of power.

Foreign powers do have banks, but Robert Baratheon doesn't turn to banks in Westeros for his loans, he turns to the High Septon, Lord Tywin Lannister and Lord Mace Tyrell - neither of which seem to run a bank but act in a semi-private capacity.

In a more realistic setting we would have a or multiple Lannister banks (and even more banks in the Westerlands as such), multiple Reach banks - Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, etc. - and we would have banking cartels in Gulltown, White Harbor and, of course, King's Landing. Also in the more prosperous regions in the Riverlands. The Freys, for instance, would also be pretty big fish in the moneylending industry.

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On 2/26/2022 at 9:50 AM, Apoplexy said:

[snip]

Areo Hottah and Shae were definitely missed opportunities. I would say Essos could have had a few characters that were not slave masters. But this story is really not about them. It's a story about mostly westerosi aristocrats. And I've said this in some other thread, but introducing modern democracy in westeros would just be weird and clearly anachronistic. 

I'd have loved Alayaya POVs.  :commie:

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On 3/1/2022 at 2:27 PM, Isobel Harper said:

I'd have loved Alayaya POVs.  :commie:

Alayaya POVs would have been great! She was basically a prop in Tyrion's story. Having said that, if we did get an Alayaya POV, I bet whatever she did/said would only be in service to Tyrion's plot. Davos is another example of a POV from a character who was not born wealthy. His POVs are only about how he furthers the plots of other lords and lordlings. His early life is only superficially mentioned.

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  • 3 weeks later...
26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

For supporting Daenerys, and for having the temerity to answer Sansa back, when she was badmouthing Daenerys in the crypt, when the latter was fighting the Dead.

what a strange opinion!

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On 3/1/2022 at 4:04 AM, SeanF said:

Medieval people were flexible about usury.  Italy had banking as early as the 13th century, and Germany shortly afterwards.  The Jews were unimportant, compared to companies like the Bardi and Peruzzi.

The Templars ~ invented the chequing account.

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  • 2 months later...

2022 appears to be the year that a lot of fans fell out of love with GRRM. The number of fans who adore him still dwarfs those who don’t, from what I’ve seen, but between the 11-year wait and all the snarky comments he’s made about fans, he’s started to lose that “living legend” status he had for so long. It’s understandable, if a bit sad, but there’s also a growing number of people I’m seeing now who talk about George as if he’s a sexual predator because of what he writes. It used to be, “look at George describing Dany’s chest again, lol he’s such a dude” to now being, “this man is a pervert with a fetish for underage girls.” :stunned: 

I can understand criticizing how men write women (I do it myself, to an extent) but if a writer’s work is an indication of their real-life morality, then every horror writer alive should be in jail right now.

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On 6/8/2022 at 1:36 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

2022 appears to be the year that a lot of fans fell out of love with GRRM. The number of fans who adore him still dwarfs those who don’t, from what I’ve seen, but between the 11-year wait and all the snarky comments he’s made about fans, he’s started to lose that “living legend” status he had for so long. It’s understandable, if a bit sad, but there’s also a growing number of people I’m seeing now who talk about George as if he’s a sexual predator because of what he writes. It used to be, “look at George describing Dany’s chest again, lol he’s such a dude” to now being, “this man is a pervert with a fetish for underage girls.” :stunned: 

I can understand criticizing how men write women (I do it myself, to an extent) but if a writer’s work is an indication of their real-life morality, then every horror writer alive should be in jail right now.

A lot of this seems to come from the Gen Z crowd now aging into college. There's a segment of young people coming up who don't appear to understand the concept of fantasy being a fantasy.

Wow. I'm getting old.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, One-Winged Balrog said:

A work being in a fantasy genre doesn't make in immune to critique.

Much of what GRRM is showing us, is in itself a critique.  He illustrates what we are meant to question.  

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10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What were you thinking of?

I mean... the example everyone are always citing is Dany/Drogo relationship.

Then there's the whole Dothraki people, who are basically a weird parody of real life nomads.

And Essos in general being a storage depot of orientalist tropes.

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14 hours ago, One-Winged Balrog said:

A work being in a fantasy genre doesn't make in immune to critique.

Never said it did. Just that accusing an author of being a pedophile or a racist based solely on their work is unfair and uncalled for without offering good evidence. George R. R. Martin is neither of those things, but many act like him writing about topics like pedophelia, incest, and bigotry makes him guilty of those things. It's one thing to critique how he writes about the Dothraki vs. the Wildlings, or to point out that maybe we could benefit from some more diversity among the pov characters. Some of these are critiques I have made myself. But what I and others here are objecting to is the extent to which some folks direct their critiques against the author himself by implying that his writing reflects his actual beliefs when they clearly don't.

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43 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Never said it did. Just that accusing an author of being a pedophile or a racist based solely on their work is unfair and uncalled for without offering good evidence. George R. R. Martin is neither of those things, but many act like him writing about topics like pedophelia, incest, and bigotry makes him guilty of those things. It's one thing to critique how he writes about the Dothraki vs. the Wildlings, or to point out that maybe we could benefit from some more diversity among the pov characters. Some of these are critiques I have made myself. But what I and others here are objecting to is the extent to which some folks direct their critiques against the author himself by implying that his writing reflects his actual beliefs when they clearly don't.

I agree he is not a pedophile or racist for what he writes. 
 

But the inordinate amount of time he spends relishing about boobs and greasy food seem less like a thematic device and more like his urges beating into his writing. 
 

And honestly, he comes across as pathetic when he whines about ‘realism’ as a justification for everything he writes.

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