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Might the Hound's bloody cloak come back to haunt him?


Egged

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I have long suspected that Gregor will be celebrated as a champion of the Seven when people find out he survived the trial, especially if he wins a second, as surely the Seven favor him if he survived not only once but twice. After all, people of King's Landing likely hold no love for the Red Viper, nor the Sand Snakes if they ever go on to cause trouble in his memory. The High Sparrow would never equate beauty with being favored by the Seven, in fact he would likely support the opposite, so as scarred as Gregor might appear it would not play against him in the High Sparrow's opinion.

And as for Sandor, I feel that his conversion (if he is the grave digger) will never be accepted by the people, no matter how true his faith is, unlike his brother which is only superficial (fake vow of silence, rainbow feathers on his helm, etc.).

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I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside ... she could scarcely imagine it.

I wonder if this cloak might not come back to haunt him. While Cersei and co. could spread any rumor that suits them at any time, someone finding his bloodied cloak among Sansa's chest could be interpreted quite horribly by those who find it, even if they didn't mean to lie about it. They could believe he hurt her and kidnaped her, killed her, or raped her, and stashed the bloody cloak in her chest before leaving. No one would believe Sandor, unless Sansa vouched for him herself.

Somehow, I feel like George didn't write this for nothing, and it will come back as a plot point. Who could find it, and confront Sandor about it, who wouldn't be seen as a likely liar like Cersei her one of her agents?

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think it's likely. Sansa took Sandor's bloody cloak with her, dyed it green to mask the blood, and shortened it to add a hood. It is currently the green hooded cloak she fled Kings Landing in.

Ah I had forgotten about that. I guess that rules it out then!

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2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think it's likely. Sansa took Sandor's bloody cloak with her, dyed it green to mask the blood, and shortened it to add a hood. It is currently the green hooded cloak she fled Kings Landing in.

Can you provide some evidence in support of this theory? I have seen this theory debunked but I have never seen evidence to uphold it. 

3 hours ago, Egged said:

Cersei and co. could spread any rumor that suits them at any time, someone finding his bloodied cloak among Sansa's chest could be interpreted quite horribly by those who find it, even if they didn't mean to lie about it. They could believe he hurt her and kidnaped her, killed her, or raped her, and stashed the bloody cloak in her chest before leaving. No one would believe Sandor, unless Sansa vouched for him herself.

Sandor disappeared long before Sansa left King's Landing. I suppose Cersei or other rumor-spreaders could spin a yarn that The Hound snuck back into the Red Keep and spirited Sansa away after Joffrey's wedding feast, but why would he bring back his old stained cloak with him and hide it in Sansa's cedar chest? Especially if he wanted to escape undetected with a valuable hostage? If the cloak had been found before Sansa made her escape, it would be difficult to make up a story about The Hound dishonoring Sansa unless she chimed in and verified their suspicions. 

The best parallel I have found for Sandor's bloody cloak in Sansa's room is the bloody sheet Sansa cuts and tries to burn in the fireplace after she gets her first period. There is a Catelyn POV where she tells Brienne that women bleeding in childbirth are like men bleeding on a battlefield.

There is a symbolic marriage and bedding in the Sandor / Sansa bedroom scene, with the cloak as a central symbol of their union. Sansa also sings the song from the seven gods about the Mother. Sansa is making a symbolic transition from maid to bride. 

The bloody cloak may come back as a plot point but I don't think a reappearance is necessary to disprove that GRRM simply threw it into the story "for nothing". It is part of Sansa's progression from maid to "bride" and "mother" (she fills the mother role for Sweetrobin after Lysa's death). I wonder whether there will be a third bloody piece of fabric for her transition from mother to crone?

Another possible parallel, while we are on the subject: as wedding gifts, Ilyrio gives Dany a chest filled with fabrics along with the three dragon eggs. The fact that Sansa has put the cloak into a chest with summer silks could create a parallel with Dany's fine fabrics and eggs. There may be some dragon symbolism around The Hound, including that he survives being pushed into a fire. Come to think of it, doesn't his father make up a story about Sandor's burned face, saying that his bedding caught fire? This would again parallel Sansa burning her bed sheet. 

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28 minutes ago, Seams said:

Can you provide some evidence in support of this theory? I have seen this theory debunked but I have never seen evidence to uphold it. 

Sandor disappeared long before Sansa left King's Landing. I suppose Cersei or other rumor-spreaders could spin a yarn that The Hound snuck back into the Red Keep and spirited Sansa away after Joffrey's wedding feast, but why would he bring back his old stained cloak with him and hide it in Sansa's cedar chest? Especially if he wanted to escape undetected with a valuable hostage? If the cloak had been found before Sansa made her escape, it would be difficult to make up a story about The Hound dishonoring Sansa unless she chimed in and verified their suspicions. 

The best parallel I have found for Sandor's bloody cloak in Sansa's room is the bloody sheet Sansa cuts and tries to burn in the fireplace after she gets her first period. There is a Catelyn POV where she tells Brienne that women bleeding in childbirth are like men bleeding on a battlefield.

There is a symbolic marriage and bedding in the Sandor / Sansa bedroom scene, with the cloak as a central symbol of their union. Sansa also sings the song from the seven gods about the Mother. Sansa is making a symbolic transition from maid to bride. 

The bloody cloak may come back as a plot point but I don't think a reappearance is necessary to disprove that GRRM simply threw it into the story "for nothing". It is part of Sansa's progression from maid to "bride" and "mother" (she fills the mother role for Sweetrobin after Lysa's death). I wonder whether there will be a third bloody piece of fabric for her transition from mother to crone?

Another possible parallel, while we are on the subject: as wedding gifts, Ilyrio gives Dany a chest filled with fabrics along with the three dragon eggs. The fact that Sansa has put the cloak into a chest with summer silks could create a parallel with Dany's fine fabrics and eggs. There may be some dragon symbolism around The Hound, including that he survives being pushed into a fire. Come to think of it, doesn't his father make up a story about Sandor's burned face, saying that his bedding caught fire? This would again parallel Sansa burning her bed sheet. 

Right actually it is unlikely Sansa would have just left the cloak in there forever, there is too much time between the battle and her disappearing.

Interesting points nonetheless about the birth notion. I have no doubt they will meet again.

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4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think it's likely. Sansa took Sandor's bloody cloak with her, dyed it green to mask the blood, and shortened it to add a hood. It is currently the green hooded cloak she fled Kings Landing in.

Huh, I had no idea that's what happened to the cloak, even though I just read the chapter where she escapes KL yesterday. That's a pretty cool detail - even though Sansa didn't leave KL with Sandor in Clash, she does still escape the city with "his help", in a very roundabout way.

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11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Huh, I had no idea that's what happened to the cloak, even though I just read the chapter where she escapes KL yesterday. That's a pretty cool detail - even though Sansa didn't leave KL with Sandor in Clash, she does still escape the city with "his help", in a very roundabout way.

This theory is not based on evidence. In fact, it contradicts some evidence. Let's not perpetuate it.

https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/111564593913/ladycyprus-asked-your-comment-about-sansa-making

tl;dr. Points against the recycled cloak theory:

1) Sansa wears many cloaks, including one that Baelish puts over the green cloak and the white fur cloak she wears at the Eyrie. (I would add that she kneels on Ser Barristan's discarded king's guard cloak when she begs Joffrey to spare Ned's life.) Sansa's many cloaks cannot all be tied to Sandor.

2) If The Hound's cloak was so special to Sansa that she labored over it and wore it when she escaped King's Landing, why wouldn't she wear it again?

3) We know that Sansa had an ivory dress dyed black after it was stained with juice from the orange thrown at her by Arya. Ser Dontos told Sansa to wear dark clothing for her escape and she laments that she had to make do with a green cloak which was not as dark as she would have liked. If she was having the cloak dyed for her escape, why not dye it black, as she did with the ivory dress?

4) Sansa is trying to keep her escape secret. She cannot dye clothing without help from servants. She would never risk enlisting the aid of servants to dye the bloody cloak of a former king's guard member whose mysterious absence has been pondered by the court. Even if they didn't connect it to her planned escape, people would wonder about her connection to the apparent desertion by the king's personal guard. 

5) Even if she could dye the fabric by herself, the dye would betray her secret activities. Remember Arya's friend Lommy Green Hands? The color of his hands told everyone that he was a dyer's apprentice. 

Having said all that, I would admit that there is Sandor-linked symbolism in the brown dress (with freshwater pearls) and green cloak worn by Sansa for her escape. I even think there is symbolism in the red and white (weirwood colors) cloak and the green and brown (leaves falling and turning into topsoil, perpetuating the fertility cycle). But then she moves onto the blue outfit with white fur cloak - sky and cloud colors, fitting for her residency at the Eyrie and her cloud and snow castles.

There is just no evidence that Sansa was wearing a green-dyed, recycled bloody white cloak that Sandor left behind in her bedchamber. 

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27 minutes ago, Seams said:

This theory is not based on evidence. In fact, it contradicts some evidence. Let's not perpetuate it.

https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/111564593913/ladycyprus-asked-your-comment-about-sansa-making

tl;dr. Points against the recycled cloak theory:

1) Sansa wears many cloaks, including one that Baelish puts over the green cloak and the white fur cloak she wears at the Eyrie. (I would add that she kneels on Ser Barristan's discarded king's guard cloak when she begs Joffrey to spare Ned's life.) Sansa's many cloaks cannot all be tied to Sandor.

2) If The Hound's cloak was so special to Sansa that she labored over it and wore it when she escaped King's Landing, why wouldn't she wear it again?

3) We know that Sansa had an ivory dress dyed black after it was stained with juice from the orange thrown at her by Arya. Ser Dontos told Sansa to wear dark clothing for her escape and she laments that she had to make do with a green cloak which was not as dark as she would have liked. If she was having the cloak dyed for her escape, why not dye it black, as she did with the ivory dress?

4) Sansa is trying to keep her escape secret. She cannot dye clothing without help from servants. She would never risk enlisting the aid of servants to dye the bloody cloak of a former king's guard member whose mysterious absence has been pondered by the court. Even if they didn't connect it to her planned escape, people would wonder about her connection to the apparent desertion by the king's personal guard. 

5) Even if she could dye the fabric by herself, the dye would betray her secret activities. Remember Arya's friend Lommy Green Hands? The color of his hands told everyone that he was a dyer's apprentice. 

Having said all that, I would admit that there is Sandor-linked symbolism in the brown dress (with freshwater pearls) and green cloak worn by Sansa for her escape. I even think there is symbolism in the red and white (weirwood colors) cloak and the green and brown (leaves falling and turning into topsoil, perpetuating the fertility cycle). But then she moves onto the blue outfit with white fur cloak - sky and cloud colors, fitting for her residency at the Eyrie and her cloud and snow castles.

There is just no evidence that Sansa was wearing a green-dyed, recycled bloody white cloak that Sandor left behind in her bedchamber. 

Hmm, so it may yet come into play at some point. Is it believed she burned it?

I feel like if she had done anything with it other than stuff it in the chest we would have known through her POV.

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17 hours ago, Egged said:

I have long suspected that Gregor will be celebrated as a champion of the Seven when people find out he survived the trial, especially if he wins a second, as surely the Seven favor him if he survived not only once but twice. After all, people of King's Landing likely hold no love for the Red Viper, nor the Sand Snakes if they ever go on to cause trouble in his memory. The High Sparrow would never equate beauty with being favored by the Seven, in fact he would likely support the opposite, so as scarred as Gregor might appear it would not play against him in the High Sparrow's opinion.

And as for Sandor, I feel that his conversion (if he is the grave digger) will never be accepted by the people, no matter how true his faith is, unlike his brother which is only superficial (fake vow of silence, rainbow feathers on his helm, etc.).

I wonder if this cloak might not come back to haunt him. While Cersei and co. could spread any rumor that suits them at any time, someone finding his bloodied cloak among Sansa's chest could be interpreted quite horribly by those who find it, even if they didn't mean to lie about it. They could believe he hurt her and kidnaped her, killed her, or raped her, and stashed the bloody cloak in her chest before leaving. No one would believe Sandor, unless Sansa vouched for him herself.

Somehow, I feel like George didn't write this for nothing, and it will come back as a plot point. Who could find it, and confront Sandor about it, who wouldn't be seen as a likely liar like Cersei her one of her agents?

after Joffrey's death, Cersei believed Tyrion has killed her son and Sansa was in on this. don't you think they must have looked through Sansa's stuff a thousand times by now? 

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There definitely is something weird going on with this cloak. This is what the app says:

Quote

He forces her to sing to him. Then, when Sansa fears he might try to kiss her, he departs the chamber, leaving behind his torn and bloodied white Kingsguard cloak, which Sansa hides in a chest.

I do find it a bit odd that this was mentioned in such a brief bio. If I had to guess, it would be that at some point in TWOW, Qyburn informs Cersei that someone found a bloodied Kingsguard cloak hidden away, and in her paranoid mind, she somehow convinces herself that this is part of some Tyrell plot against her (much like with the coin that Varys planted).

On a side note, the app also debunks the interpretation that the Hound was planning on raping her, which is definitely appreciated.

 

Like many people, I am interested in how the whole Sansa/Sandor/Unkiss thing unravels. In ASOS, this is how Sansa remembers it:

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Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

But then in AFFC, this is how she remembers it:

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As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

So it goes from "this angry weirdo showed up and kissed me" to "this guy kissed me and then he just took off and left me hanging.This first is bemused and a little unsettled, the second wistful and a bit resentful. I've seen people suggest that Sansa is merely romanticizing a traumatic moment as a coping mechanism, but I'm not convinced. Sansa's had plenty of traumatic experiences (watching Ned and Dontos and Lysa get killed, the riot in KL, Joffrey having her stripped and beaten, etc.), and she remembers all of those just fine. I'm more inclined to believe that there's some latent warging/premonition going on. 

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19 hours ago, Egged said:

I have long suspected that Gregor will be celebrated as a champion of the Seven when people find out he survived the trial, especially if he wins a second, as surely the Seven favor him if he survived not only once but twice.

I don't think Gregor will ever be regarded as anything other than a monster by a significant portion of "the people", religious or otherwise.

19 hours ago, Egged said:

The High Sparrow would never equate beauty with being favored by the Seven, in fact he would likely support the opposite, so as scarred as Gregor might appear it would not play against him in the High Sparrow's opinion.

Robert Strong is officially not Gregor, so I don't think the High Sparrow is going to see Gregor's face any time soon.

19 hours ago, Egged said:

And as for Sandor, I feel that his conversion (if he is the grave digger) will never be accepted by the people, no matter how true his faith is, unlike his brother which is only superficial (fake vow of silence, rainbow feathers on his helm, etc.).

By "the people" do you mean the KL crowd?   I don't think Sandor will be returning to KL, nor identifying himself by the name "Sandor".  When he reappears he may be hard to recognize.  Religious people sometimes adopt new names.   And his face has been reinjured and re-healed by the reputedly miraculous healing powers of the Elder Brother.

19 hours ago, Egged said:

I wonder if this cloak might not come back to haunt him.

I can't see how.  But it does seem a bit like a Chekov's bloody cloak.

19 hours ago, Egged said:

While Cersei and co. could spread any rumor that suits them at any time, someone finding his bloodied cloak among Sansa's chest could be interpreted quite horribly by those who find it, even if they didn't mean to lie about it. They could believe he hurt her and kidnaped her, killed her, or raped her, and stashed the bloody cloak in her chest before leaving.

Doesn't seem likely to me.  

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It would be hard to recognize Gregor without a head too. It would seem he’s got someone else’s head on under his helm since his real one was sent to Dorn. Unless they found a match in size to send instead. Maybe an undersized skull under his helm. Is it written what happened to Robert Baratheon’s body after he died? I doubt they’d preserve it, but Cersei gets her freak on in more than one weird way. I’m sure she’d enjoy desecrating Roberts memory in such a twisted way. 

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I mean anyone is free to try and take his helmet off. But I think Qyburn would be smart enough to make more than difficult. Good luck.

Until then:

Quote

Kevan Lannister had a strong suspicion of just who this Ser Robert really was beneath that gleaming white armor. A suspicion that Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly no doubt shared. Whatever the face hidden behind Strong's helm, it must remain hidden for now. The silent giant was his niece's only hope. And pray that he is as formidable as he appears.

Gregor the Blessed.

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Something interesting about Sansa’s relationship with the Hound is that it’s the one thing about her that Littlefinger doesn’t know about. He’s so convinced that he has her all figured out, that she’s this pretty girl daydreaming about pretty boys, that he would never guess she has this strange thing going on with someone who doesn’t fit that profile at all. And somehow this also managed to elude all the spies reporting back to LF/Tyrion/Varys/Cersei back in ACOK.

It reminds me a bit of how Tyrion and Cersei think of Jaime as simple and superficial, but then when you read his POVS, it quickly becomes clear how haunted and melancholy he is. Everyone has secrets.

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On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

This theory is not based on evidence. In fact, it contradicts some evidence. Let's not perpetuate it.

https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/111564593913/ladycyprus-asked-your-comment-about-sansa-making

I'm agnostic about the green cloak theory - feels like a small thing: if Sansa has some value for this cloak (she does), and knows she will be leaving (she does), she might take steps to keep it with her. I don't care - the only important point to me is that she kept it. Butterfly is wrong to say s/he has disproved it though -

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

tl;dr. Points against the recycled cloak theory:

1) Sansa wears many cloaks, including one that Baelish puts over the green cloak and the white fur cloak she wears at the Eyrie. (I would add that she kneels on Ser Barristan's discarded king's guard cloak when she begs Joffrey to spare Ned's life.) Sansa's many cloaks cannot all be tied to Sandor.

True.

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

2) If The Hound's cloak was so special to Sansa that she labored over it and wore it when she escaped King's Landing, why wouldn't she wear it again?

Maybe she has. She has a lot of clothes, and a lot of time in the Vale.

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

3) We know that Sansa had an ivory dress dyed black after it was stained with juice from the orange thrown at her by Arya. Ser Dontos told Sansa to wear dark clothing for her escape and she laments that she had to make do with a green cloak which was not as dark as she would have liked. If she was having the cloak dyed for her escape, why not dye it black, as she did with the ivory dress?

When she dyed it, she hadn't yet got the memo about dressing dark. Besides, it was a dark green she was satisfied would hide the pearls.

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

4) Sansa is trying to keep her escape secret. She cannot dye clothing without help from servants. She would never risk enlisting the aid of servants to dye the bloody cloak of a former king's guard member whose mysterious absence has been pondered by the court. Even if they didn't connect it to her planned escape, people would wonder about her connection to the apparent desertion by the king's personal guard. 

Don't agree. Laundry and dressmaking are below the notice of spies, and so is pretty, empty-headed little Sansa (as Dontos points out). It's doubtful that Cersei Lannister's servants are bright and eager and confident enough to report trivia to her - and it is trivia. Sansa says she found a ruined cloak and wants to recycle it as a needlework project - so what. The laundry department would be full of ruined cloaks and demands for new cloaks after the Blackwater. They won't care.

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

5) Even if she could dye the fabric by herself, the dye would betray her secret activities. Remember Arya's friend Lommy Green Hands? The color of his hands told everyone that he was a dyer's apprentice. 

True.

On 10/17/2021 at 5:44 PM, Seams said:

Having said all that, I would admit that there is Sandor-linked symbolism in the brown dress (with freshwater pearls) and green cloak worn by Sansa for her escape. I even think there is symbolism in the red and white (weirwood colors) cloak and the green and brown (leaves falling and turning into topsoil, perpetuating the fertility cycle). But then she moves onto the blue outfit with white fur cloak - sky and cloud colors, fitting for her residency at the Eyrie and her cloud and snow castles.

There is just no evidence that Sansa was wearing a green-dyed, recycled bloody white cloak that Sandor left behind in her bedchamber. 

Yeah, the symbolism is more interesting.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is going to be queen, Sandor is going to become Kingsguard. She's going to clean the blood from the cloak (symbolism) and give (as in clasp it around his neck when she makes him KG) it back to him.

better yet if she also gives him a kiss of forgiveness. I mean, as far as she is concerned they kissed once already...

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is going to be queen, Sandor is going to become Kingsguard. She's going to clean the blood from the cloak (symbolism) and give (as in clasp it around his neck when she makes him KG) it back to him.

"u r muh kween!" 

29 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

better yet if she also gives him a kiss of forgiveness. I mean, as far as she is concerned they kissed once already...

They didn't actually. 

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