Might the Hound's bloody cloak come back to haunt him?

[Springwatch]

Back to the green cloak - I did a search on summer + green, and it turned up plenty. About fourteen instances roughly saying 'green as summer' - I guess Sansa having a green cloak, and suddenly LF's cloak, marked the ending of a season of her life.

ETA

Might be a similar life marker to Arya's loss of Lommy Greenhands. No more sweet summer child.

[Springwatch]

4 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think there is still conflict left to resolve between Arya and Sansa, and the fact that Sansa betrayed Ned is a bigger revelation than that Littlefinger did as well.

She didn't really - but that is a discussion for another time.

Yes to a hostile reunion between the sisters though - it's going to be difficult.

[Seams]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

... it would be a terrific manifestation of 'the human heart in conflict with itself' if Sandor has to sacrifice his hard-won peace and redemption in order to use the power of the Hound identity again.

Worth noting that Lem Lemoncloak (probably Richard Lonmouth) has picked up The Hound's helm and he wears it while stringing up Brienne for her execution by the BwB. Interesting that these are all "king's guard" characters featured in @Mourning Star's theory. 

There is a major "borrowed helm" detail in The Hedge Knight and we see Tyrion scrounging to use other people's armor. Rattleshirt repurposes a giant's skull as a helmet. Ser Hyle tries to get Podrick to take up a helmet worn by someone who died in battle and Podrick adamantly refuses. In addition to stained cloaks, I wonder whether swapping helmets will be part of the "school of hard knocks" king's guard that comes together as the plot progresses?

Also, I think there is wordplay on the Lem characters and the elm tree of Dunk's sigil (also now Brienne's sigil). So the killer tree motif may come into play here. 

[Mourning Star]

11 minutes ago, Seams said:

Worth noting that Lem Lemoncloak (probably Richard Lonmouth) has picked up The Hound's helm and he wears it while stringing up Brienne for her execution by the BwB. Interesting that these are all "king's guard" characters featured in @Mourning Star's theory. 

There is a major "borrowed helm" detail in The Hedge Knight and we see Tyrion scrounging to use other people's armor. Rattleshirt repurposes a giant's skull as a helmet. Ser Hyle tries to get Podrick to take up a helmet worn by someone who died in battle and Podrick adamantly refuses. In addition to stained cloaks, I wonder whether swapping helmets will be part of the "school of hard knocks" king's guard that comes together as the plot progresses?

Also, I think there is wordplay on the Lem characters and the elm tree of Dunk's sigil (also now Brienne's sigil). So the killer tree motif may come into play here. 

I think Lem has some growing up to do too! And that it’s not a coincidence he wears the helm.

And I do think there’s something going on with helms… but again, this is all a bit half baked.

Still, the Knight of the Laughing Tree used piecemeal armor, perhaps borrowed armor.

Barristan The Bold borrowed armor to fight in the tourney which earned him his monicker, and fits the bill of “ex” Kingsguard.

And, if I wanted a helm to frighten children I would go to Tobho Mott, and knock on his Weirwood and Ebony doors.

I’m really just firing from the hip at this point. Great fun though!

[Springwatch]

10 minutes ago, Seams said:

Ser Hyle tries to get Podrick to take up a helmet worn by someone who died in battle and Podrick adamantly refuses

Well remembered! The helm is too big, but Hyle says Pod will grow into it. Pod says he doesn't want to.

It suggests a pattern of being changed from the outside inward - like the white cloak of the kingsguard changes a man, and like the Hound helm being an evil object that will corrupt Lem ("savage, snarling, twisted... is that who you would be, Lem?").

I'll look out for more of those.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Well remembered! The helm is too big, but Hyle says Pod will grow into it. Pod says he doesn't want to.

It suggests a pattern of being changed from the outside inward - like the white cloak of the kingsguard changes a man, and like the Hound helm being an evil object that will corrupt Lem ("savage, snarling, twisted... is that who you would be, Lem?").

I'll look out for more of those.

Or even just the sigils of Westeros generally, where men wear beasts on their breasts, and think they are them, and more literally the skinchangers who do literally take on aspects of their beasts. Those that wear beasts and those that are werebeasts

Or what cloak you wear, be it of the Kingsguard, or the Night’s Watch and Mance, the King Beyond the Wall, and his wanting to wear the cloak of his choosing.

Perhaps part of the problem lay not with the hound, but with the hound’s master.

Love is sweet, and Hate is bitter, but they cannot change a man’s nature.

[Mister Smikes]

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This deserves to come true - even though personally I think Sandor most likely has joined the non-combatants and will have to rely on his wits in the future (like Jaime). But - it would be a terrific manifestation of 'the human heart in conflict with itself' if Sandor has to sacrifice his hard-won peace and redemption in order to use the power of the Hound identity again.

I don't agree with either of the bolded parts. 

As to the first, the thematic opposite the Savage Hound is not a noncombatant who despite his skills cowers and hides while smallfolk are dying all around him.  Its thematic opposite is a True Knight who defends the weak.

As to the second, there is nothing good about "using the power of the Hound identity" as the Elder Brother laments, and as Thoros rightly points out to Lem Lemoncloak.

The Hound and Sandor have parted ways.  The Hound has moved on and found a string of savage new hosts.  Sandor has moved on as well leaving everything behind including his name.  If they ever meet again, their swords shall cross. 

 

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Back to the green cloak - I did a search on summer + green, and it turned up plenty. About fourteen instances roughly saying 'green as summer' - I guess Sansa having a green cloak, and suddenly LF's cloak, marked the ending of a season of her life.

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Worth noting that Lem Lemoncloak (probably Richard Lonmouth) has picked up The Hound's helm and he wears it while stringing up Brienne for her execution by the BwB. Interesting that these are all "king's guard" characters featured in @Mourning Star's theory. 

As long as we are discussing Sandor's bloodstained cloak, green cloaks, and Lem ...

Sandor has another bloodstained cloak ... the green cloak he had when Arya met him.  He was using it to mop up the blood and it was soaking right through.  

And as for Lem, it is hinted that his lemon-colored cloak was formerly green.  It may be that Sandor's cloak will also be lemon-colored by the time he succeeds in washing the bloodstains out of it.

Generally, speaking, I have the idea that Lem, Sandor and Brienne are being set up to be confused with each other.  

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't agree with either of the bolded parts. 

As to the first, the thematic opposite the Savage Hound is not a noncombatant who despite his skills cowers and hides while smallfolk are dying all around him.  Its thematic opposite is a True Knight who defends the weak.

As to the second, there is nothing good about "using the power of the Hound identity" as the Elder Brother laments, and as Thoros rightly points out to Lem Lemoncloak.

The Hound and Sandor have parted ways.  The Hound has moved on and found a string of savage new hosts.  Sandor has moved on as well leaving everything behind including his name.  If they ever meet again, their swords shall cross.

Ok, and I'm already sympathetic to these ideas, but I'm thinking of other things as well.

There's no heart conflict at all in Sandor using his skills on the side of 'good'. He'd enjoy that. But I don't think grrm is going to make it that easy: compare with Jaime, who honourably wants to save lives from warfare, but ends up threatening to throw a child from a trebuchet (and imho, meaning it).

I don't think grrm is going to allow the ideal of the True Knight in Westeros any more than actual gods, and if we could see the heroes of legend, they would look a lot like Jaime, and Sandor, and Robert Strong (who's probably the nearest thing we'll see to a true knight, and is obviously a monster).

Also comparing with Jaime: Jaime's hand is not going to grow back. I predict that Sandor's leg is not going to heal completely either - I don't think 'good' medicine can do that; in contrast look at the fire healing Moqorro performed on Victarion: completely effective and looks demonic.

Lastly, I believe there is actual power in the Hound identity - it's been basically headology so far, but as magic increases in the world, it becomes something supernaturally potent. Something warriors sense and want for themselves. But it's not 'good'.

(There are shades of the supernatural around warriors already, some of them. Jaime and Tyrion feel godlike on the battlefield. When Sansa sees Sandor killing, she can only described him as transformed. Transformed into what?)

[WhatAnArtist!]

21 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Perhaps part of the problem lay not with the hound, but with the hound’s master

Ser Kevan says as much in A Feast for Crows:

Quote

[Cersei]: "Bring us Sandor's head, and I know His Grace will be most grateful. Joff may have liked the man, but Tommen was always afraid of him... with good reason, it would seem."

"When a dog goes bad, the fault lies with his master," Ser Kevan said. Then he turned and walked away.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Ok, and I'm already sympathetic to these ideas, but I'm thinking of other things as well.

There's no heart conflict at all in Sandor using his skills on the side of 'good'. He'd enjoy that. But I don't think grrm is going to make it that easy: compare with Jaime, who honourably wants to save lives from warfare, but ends up threatening to throw a child from a trebuchet (and imho, meaning it).

I don't think grrm is going to allow the ideal of the True Knight in Westeros any more than actual gods, and if we could see the heroes of legend, they would look a lot like Jaime, and Sandor, and Robert Strong (who's probably the nearest thing we'll see to a true knight, and is obviously a monster).

Also comparing with Jaime: Jaime's hand is not going to grow back. I predict that Sandor's leg is not going to heal completely either - I don't think 'good' medicine can do that; in contrast look at the fire healing Moqorro performed on Victarion: completely effective and looks demonic.

Lastly, I believe there is actual power in the Hound identity - it's been basically headology so far, but as magic increases in the world, it becomes something supernaturally potent. Something warriors sense and want for themselves. But it's not 'good'.

(There are shades of the supernatural around warriors already, some of them. Jaime and Tyrion feel godlike on the battlefield. When Sansa sees Sandor killing, she can only described him as transformed. Transformed into what?)

I guess it will depend whether Sandor is rendered physically incapable (like Theon, Bran and possibly Loras) or if he’ll still be able to fight, just with brutal scarring (like Brienne, Qhorin, the clansmen, and hopefully Jaime). I don’t know if there are any other fighters in this series with a limp though.

I don’t think Jaime’s trebuchet line would have come to fruition, for no other reason than timing. The baby still wasn’t due for a while.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Ser Kevan says as much in A Feast for Crows:

 

Or even Mace in Dance:

"A dog takes after its master," declared Mace Tyrell.

And I think it even fits going back to Sansa and Sandor in Clash:

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."
Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

And the quote above, I see, as one of the main focal points of this relationship. It also ties into some other major themes of the series.

Obviously, the abused pet metaphor works with what we have been discussing.

But, also the sentiment on fear. "there's no man on earth I need fear." But all men must know fear, and the only time one can be brave is when one is afraid. Sandor isn't showing bravery here, he is revealing a fault.

And, we see an odd parallel to Varys's riddle about power too. Sandor is the man with the sword. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Sandor will keep his little bit of steel, the power of life and death.

Sandor abandons his king and master, then loses out on the gold he hoped to gain from ransoming Arya, and I suspect will not find peace in religion either.

I think he will have to take up the sword again to face his fears, and will have to decide what kind of man he is, what he follows, and I want to believe he will decide to try and do what he thinks is right, rather than follow any of Varys's suggested base motivations. If I were to speculate wildly, I'd say Sandor will learn mercy. Although, perhaps fittingly, it may result in his own demise.

You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why."

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ok, and I'm already sympathetic to these ideas, but I'm thinking of other things as well.

There's no heart conflict at all in Sandor using his skills on the side of 'good'. He'd enjoy that. But I don't think grrm is going to make it that easy: compare with Jaime, who honourably wants to save lives from warfare, but ends up threatening to throw a child from a trebuchet (and imho, meaning it).

I don't think grrm is going to allow the ideal of the True Knight in Westeros any more than actual gods, and if we could see the heroes of legend, they would look a lot like Jaime, and Sandor, and Robert Strong (who's probably the nearest thing we'll see to a true knight, and is obviously a monster).

Also comparing with Jaime: Jaime's hand is not going to grow back. I predict that Sandor's leg is not going to heal completely either - I don't think 'good' medicine can do that; in contrast look at the fire healing Moqorro performed on Victarion: completely effective and looks demonic.

Lastly, I believe there is actual power in the Hound identity - it's been basically headology so far, but as magic increases in the world, it becomes something supernaturally potent. Something warriors sense and want for themselves. But it's not 'good'.

(There are shades of the supernatural around warriors already, some of them. Jaime and Tyrion feel godlike on the battlefield. When Sansa sees Sandor killing, she can only described him as transformed. Transformed into what?)

I don't see much point in a heart conflict if the possibility of doing "good" is going to be ruled out in advance.  Maybe we'll just get sad cynical people doing sad wicked things, while they think self-pitying thoughts about "having to" do them; and for all I know, maybe that's all GRRM means by a "heart in conflict".  But I wouldn't think much of that.

I'm not sure how much more heart conflict you can realistically expect from a non-POV character.  We've already seen plenty heart conflict from Sandor, or at least arguable signs and symptoms of it, through the eyes of others.  He has now disappeared into the mist.  My guess is, when he reappears, he will be sufficiently transformed that he will be hard to recognize.

Sandor started the story as a savage, cynical, nihilistic child murderer.  You seem confident he will end the story that way as well.  Because Jaime.  Or something. 

Jaime, btw, is IMHO just a narcissist who wants the smallfolk and historians to love him, now that he realizes Cersei does not.  I don't think he should be used as an illustration of the impossibility of real redemption.

GRRM never said there were no actual gods.  He said that he wants to present the evidence of actuality of the gods in an ambiguous manner, in a world where some believe in gods and others don't, because that seems to him more realistic. 

And as for the ideal of the True Knight, he has said extremely enthusiastic things about it.  And what is the point of Duncan the Tall if the ideal of the True Knight is not allowed in Westeros?

I agree that we readers are not done with "the Hound".  But when he, she, or it next appears, the Thing under the Helm will not be Sandor IMHO.

Sandor's leg will either heal completely, or not.  In case it does not, we will have to keep our eyes out for tall mystery warriors with limps.  But it does not take much leg pain for a man to favor one leg over the other in casual moments.  It would not necessarily stop him from fighting if he needed to.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Or even Mace in Dance:

"A dog takes after its master," declared Mace Tyrell.

And I think it even fits going back to Sansa and Sandor in Clash:

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."
Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

And the quote above, I see, as one of the main focal points of this relationship. It also ties into some other major themes of the series.

Obviously, the abused pet metaphor works with what we have been discussing.

But, also the sentiment on fear. "there's no man on earth I need fear." But all men must know fear, and the only time one can be brave is when one is afraid. Sandor isn't showing bravery here, he is revealing a fault.

And, we see an odd parallel to Varys's riddle about power too. Sandor is the man with the sword. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Sandor will keep his little bit of steel, the power of life and death.

Sandor abandons his king and master, then loses out on the gold he hoped to gain from ransoming Arya, and I suspect will not find peace in religion either.

I think he will have to take up the sword again to face his fears, and will have to decide what kind of man he is, what he follows, and I want to believe he will decide to try and do what he thinks is right, rather than follow any of Varys's suggested base motivations. If I were to speculate wildly, I'd say Sandor will learn mercy. Although, perhaps fittingly, it may result in his own demise.

You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why."

Man, their relationship is so messed up, but I love reading about it hehe. (It doesn’t come up as much, but when you think about it, Jaime and Brienne are a bit similar. They have this great dynamic that’s so interesting to read about, but it was also built in part not only on insults but also on actually beating each other senseless at one point). 
 

I agree that Sandor is predominately a supporting character in Sansa’s story, and to a lesser extent Arya’s. It’s similar to how Jorah is a supporting character for Dany’s story, Ygritte and the men at the Night’s Watch are for Jon, and Jaqen and Gendry are for Arya. Sam and Brienne seem to have grown on GRRM enough that they were given their own plots, but originally they were there to support other characters too.

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Lastly, I believe there is actual power in the Hound identity - it's been basically headology so far, but as magic increases in the world, it becomes something supernaturally potent. Something warriors sense and want for themselves. But it's not 'good'.

I think you're talking about people taking the Hound's helmet and wearing it when they commit war crimes? We think Rorge and Biter had it at the Salt Pans, right? And then the BwB picked it up and Lem Lemoncloak wears it for the hanging of Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle. 

If you're right, the point could be that it's not good to wear someone else's helmet. The Hound helmet could be the most clear example of that, but I think it usually does not lead to a good outcome when someone wears a helmet that belongs to someone else. (I'm thinking of Prince Baelor in particular.) An exception may be Tyrion, who scrounges up armor more than once. He has good success at the Green Fork wearing a spiked helmet that he uses to kill a horse, causing the horse's rider to concede just as Tyrion was going to concede to him. 

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

"So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."
Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

These dog clues reminded me of a line in the scene where Melisandre burns Mance (actually Rattleshirt) and forces the Free Folk to burn weirwood branches before they pass south of the Wall:

Quote

When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. (ADwD, Jon III)

This could be Sandor (small dog) and Gregor (larger). But what are they describing? A small fire and a brighter fire (on a flaming sword). But Aemon told Jon Snow that the flaming sword of Stannis is not right because it doesn't carry its own heat. So maybe the size or brightness of the fire is less important than some other quality embodied by that fire. 

The horse throwing his rider could be, again, that metaphor of the Mountain that Rides being forced off of his horse.

The fact that Rattleshirt burned on this fire gives me a new scent trail to follow. His other title is "Lord of Bones." Who else is a lord of bones? A dog. I have been persuaded by the theory that Rattleshirt symbolizes Ned, but now I'm thinking he could also symbolize The Hound / Sandor Clegane. We do have this hint about a possible Ned/Sandor parallel from Sansa:

Quote

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile. (AGoT, Sansa I)

Unpacking some of the other symbolism:

Helmets

Sandor's helmet is left on his "grave" when The Elder Brother buries him (or so he says). That helmet is taken up and worn by others who commit atrocities.

The Lord of Bones (Rattleshirt) wears the head of a giant as a helmet. Obviously, the helmet originally belonged to someone else. 

When "Mance" (Rattleshirt) dies, Jon Snow sings a verse of The Dornishman's Wife song to himself, where the singer decides it's ok to die because he feels fulfilled after having sex with the Dornishman's wife. (This ties into Ser Gregor, who admits to raping and killing Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne, as Prince Oberyn is killing him.) 

Ser Gregor is beheaded and his skull sent to Dorne. I think there is some kind of inverted parallel between Dorne and "beyond the Wall" (southron spelled backward is northuos). 

Sandor becomes a man with a head but no helmet; Gregor becomes a knight (and king's guard) without a head but he has a helmet.

Flaming Swords

Sansa say that Sandor is "mean-tempered." The whole Azor Ahai story is about tempering the steel of a sword. 

Sansa says that Sandor "bites any hand that tries to pet him." This could tie Sandor back to Biter (who eats the fingers off the dead guards at Harrenhal, after the Weasel Soup attack). But it also might explain why Stannis wears a glove when handling the (fake) Lightbringer sword. He doesn't want to be "bitten" (burned) by the fire-heated sword. 

(And one of my pet theories is that "Bittersteel" and "Biter" are linked by wordplay. So we could be getting some Blackfyre sword clues here, too.) 

Just after Rattleshirt dies and just before Stannis pulls out "Lightbringer," we read this:

Quote

"The Lord of Light made the sun and moon and stars to light our way, and gave us fire to keep the night at bay," Melisandre told the wildlings. "None can withstand his flames." 

"None can withstand his flames," the queen's men echoed. 

But we know that Sandor did survive the flames. Is Sandor Clegane the embodiment of Lightbringer?

R'hllor, Gods and Dogs

The flames were compared to dogs. It seems too obvious, but there could be wordplay on "dog" and "god". R'hllor is a fire god. 

Before Mance makes peace among the wildlings, Rattleshirt and Harma Dogshead were mortal enemies. GRRM may be making it easy for us with the name "Harma Dogshead". There's not even an anagram there, just a straightforward name for someone who hates dogs and who beheads them regularly. This could take us back to the beheading of Ser Gregor.

The Clegane sigil and the two excerpts, above, comparing Sandor to a mean dog, are good evidence that Sandor is a dog.

With the three dog sigil, Gregor is also a dog in some ways, but I associate him most strongly with other identities: a giant, the mountain that rides, and the color green. Anagram: Ser Gregor Clegane = Green Grace logs. The Green Grace is a religious figure and logs are significant in the symbolism surrounding burning trees and wood. (Melisandre burns the masts carved into the gods of the Seven at Dragonstone, for instance, and Tyrion steps over a burning log when he emerges from the fireplace to kill Tywin.)

I suspect there are clues for us in Septon Meribald's dog and in Weese, whose face and throat are eaten by his spotted dog. Weese's earlier "boils" on his face and these deadly wounds are similar to the disfigured face of Sandor Clegane. Weese's dog is shot with arrows, similar to the death of Rattleshirt. 

Red (and Green)

Another name for R'hllor is The Red God. 

In @Mourning Star's theory of the new king's guard / rainbow guard, Sandor might be the "red" guard because of this bloody king's guard cloak. 

At the end of the Battle of the Blackwater, in the last sentence of the POV, Davos observes the green flames of the wildfire and the red steel of something that burned in the fire. (This contrasts with the black and white water he sees in the opening sentence of the same chapter.) In other words, the outcome of the Battle of the Blackwater could be foreshadowing a battle between the Clegane brothers, representing green (Gregor) and red (Sandor). 

[Egged]

On 10/21/2021 at 1:16 PM, Seams said:

Worth noting that Lem Lemoncloak (probably Richard Lonmouth) has picked up The Hound's helm and he wears it while stringing up Brienne for her execution by the BwB. Interesting that these are all "king's guard" characters featured in @Mourning Star's theory. 

There is a major "borrowed helm" detail in The Hedge Knight and we see Tyrion scrounging to use other people's armor. Rattleshirt repurposes a giant's skull as a helmet. Ser Hyle tries to get Podrick to take up a helmet worn by someone who died in battle and Podrick adamantly refuses. In addition to stained cloaks, I wonder whether swapping helmets will be part of the "school of hard knocks" king's guard that comes together as the plot progresses?

Also, I think there is wordplay on the Lem characters and the elm tree of Dunk's sigil (also now Brienne's sigil). So the killer tree motif may come into play here. 

Lem = lemon, bitter. Darkstar and his unsweetened lemon water. Brienne of Tarth. I have a theory that Richard Lonmouth is the one who found who the KotLT, and torn between his loyalty between Robert or Rhaegar the choice he made afterwards led to his bitterness and depression. House Lonmouth's words are "The Choice is Yours", it is the definition of "the heart in conflict with itself".

All of the characters who wanted to be like Arthur Dayne have become, in a way, the Smiling Knight. Except Sandor, since for him it was the opposite.

Quote

"It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

Quote

And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

 

[EggBlue]

6 hours ago, Egged said:

Lem = lemon, bitter. Darkstar and his unsweetened lemon water. Brienne of Tarth. I have a theory that Richard Lonmouth is the one who found who the KotLT, and torn between his loyalty between Robert or Rhaegar the choice he made afterwards led to his bitterness and depression. House Lonmouth's words are "The Choice is Yours", it is the definition of "the heart in conflict with itself".

honestly for Richard  a decision between loyalty to a prince/friend and a drinking body/ liege lord shouldn't have been that hard since technically a friend comes before a drinking body as a the prince of the realm comes before the liege lord . though I do agree that Lem (or Richard if he is) must have had make hard choice but I suppose it must also be somehow related to the wife and daughter he lost ... as long as we know Richard wasn't married so I guess we should make assumptions about women or children near him that he might have either loved or felt responsibility towards .

[Egged]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

honestly for Richard  a decision between loyalty to a prince/friend and a drinking body/ liege lord shouldn't have been that hard since technically a friend comes before a drinking body as a the prince of the realm comes before the liege lord . though I do agree that Lem (or Richard if he is) must have had make hard choice but I suppose it must also be somehow related to the wife and daughter he lost ... as long as we know Richard wasn't married so I guess we should make assumptions about women or children near him that he might have either loved or felt responsibility towards .

It could have happened after the war or tourney. We have zero information after him vowing to find the KotLT.

[Springwatch]

On 10/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I don't see much point in a heart conflict if the possibility of doing "good" is going to be ruled out in advance.

Wut? I'm not arguing for that (or for the impossibility of redemption, or Sandor ending up a cynical murderer). But it has to be said that GRRM loves conflicted hearts, and impossible moral dilemmas, and dramatic flourishes. Selling your soul to the devil to save something precious scores highly on all those measures, so GRRM might bring it into play. Sandor being a well-constructed character just makes it more likely to happen - he's unlikely to fade into a cipher of the true knight. In fact all the characters trying to be true knights are put under pressure - Jaime, Brienne, Barristan. Even Davos, who is probably the most naturally 'good' is faced with the moral dilemma: would you kill one child to save the whole world? Davos refuses the immediate evil, saying that one child means everything - but he's going to look pretty silly if the fantasy apocolypse does wipe out humanity, as the ghost grass suggests it will.

On 10/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mister Smikes said:

[...] Maybe we'll just get sad cynical people doing sad wicked things, while they think self-pitying thoughts about "having to" do them; and for all I know, maybe that's all GRRM means by a "heart in conflict".  But I wouldn't think much of that.

[...] Jaime, btw, is IMHO just a narcissist who wants the smallfolk and historians to love him, now that he realizes Cersei does not. 

Ah, you're not convinced by New Jaime either -

On 10/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Sandor started the story as a savage, cynical, nihilistic child murderer.  You seem confident he will end the story that way as well.  Because Jaime.  Or something. 

Nope. Actually I don't consider Sandor a minor character. The layers and conflicts in his personality were mapped out right from the start, when lazy Jaime was just a trope villain. If there isn't an interesting arc for Sandor going forward, the character should just be retired.

Jaime is a case in point because he wants to be a true knight. It's not an easy path for him, or even Brienne or Barristan. Or Sandor.

On 10/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mister Smikes said:

And as for the ideal of the True Knight, he has said extremely enthusiastic things about it.  And what is the point of Duncan the Tall if the ideal of the True Knight is not allowed in Westeros?

Very different books. Duncan is living life as a song; the cast of asoiaf are not.

Also, ideals are great as things to be lived up to, but probably monstrous if they actually appeared. We've received some information on the true knight ideal which would be worrying if perfected - absolute loyalty, bound by their code and oaths without compromise, and effective killers. Knights are for killing. True knights are killer robots.

On 10/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Sandor's leg will either heal completely, or not.  In case it does not, we will have to keep our eyes out for tall mystery warriors with limps.  But it does not take much leg pain for a man to favor one leg over the other in casual moments.  It would not necessarily stop him from fighting if he needed to.

irrc there was a knight in Dunk's stories who jousted with a wounded leg - I guess being a great rider counts above all, etc etc.

But what i think is that asoiaf is a game of two halves, and the first half has been dominated by the warriors. The second half is probably the time of the weak - the world will be saved by bastards and cripples and broken things. Thinkers and dreamers.

[Mister Smikes]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Wut? I'm not arguing for that (or for the impossibility of redemption, or Sandor ending up a cynical murderer). But it has to be said that GRRM loves conflicted hearts, and impossible moral dilemmas, and dramatic flourishes. Selling your soul to the devil to save something precious scores highly on all those measures, so GRRM might bring it into play.

Impossible moral dilemmas have little interest for me.  They are impossible, and therefore not really moral dilemmas at all.  Tough moral dilemmas, where there may actually be a right answer, are more interesting.  And author can use tough moral dilemmas to corrupt a good man who makes the wrong decisions, or to redeem a bad man who makes the right ones.

Using tough moral dilemmas to show that the bad man really is bad after all is not that interesting to me.   I'm not saying it won't happen of course.  ASOIAF has a lot of bad characters, and I would guess that most of them will continue to be bad.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sandor being a well-constructed character just makes it more likely to happen - he's unlikely to fade into a cipher of the true knight.

Well, if he fails to become a good person, he will be just like  all the other bad people who stay bad.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

In fact all the characters trying to be true knights are put under pressure - Jaime, Brienne, Barristan. Even Davos, who is probably the most naturally 'good' is faced with the moral dilemma: would you kill one child to save the whole world? Davos refuses the immediate evil, saying that one child means everything - but he's going to look pretty silly if the fantasy apocolypse does wipe out humanity, as the ghost grass suggests it will.

I don't think Davos needs to worry about GRRM's stance on this moral dilemma.  GRRM already addressed the "Do have to commit murder to save the World because the Devil told me Armageddon is coming?" dilemma in THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, and came down firmly on the "No" side.   And if that's how GRRM feels about shooting a complete asshat in the head to prevent Armageddon, how do you think he feels about burning innocent children alive?

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ah, you're not convinced by New Jaime either -

Yeah.  I put Jaime in the bad people who stay bad category.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Very different books. Duncan is living life as a song; the cast of asoiaf are not.

Same world.  Different perspectives.  Different choices.  Dunk was a humble man living a humble life, among other humble people.  And now, maybe, so is Sandor.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Also, ideals are great as things to be lived up to, but probably monstrous if they actually appeared. We've received some information on the true knight ideal which would be worrying if perfected - absolute loyalty, bound by their code and oaths without compromise, and effective killers. Knights are for killing. True knights are killer robots.

"Knights are for killing" is just you parroting the position of savage Sandor the child-murderer.  Sounds like you are rejecting the possibility of a warrior also being a good person.  Which I don't think is GRRM's position.

The Fire Wights, bound by their oaths and mechanically following them, are the killer robots of the series.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But what i think is that asoiaf is a game of two halves, and the first half has been dominated by the warriors. The second half is probably the time of the weak - the world will be saved by bastards and cripples and broken things. Thinkers and dreamers.

So from now on, no dragons?  Is that what you are saying?  And who is going to stand between the dragon and the maiden if not the True Knight?  And Sandor does seem just a wee bit broken to me.  

What makes a knight true is not that he is strong.  What makes him true is that he is willing to defend the weak and oppose the strong.  It is the dragon, relatively speaking, who is the strong one.