Succession [spoilers]

[DireWolfSpirit]

Finished the 3 seasons.

Am actively rooting for something terrible to happen to Roman and Shiv. Just really despise those two.

Jeremy Strong is a pretty impressive actor, this is the guy that plays hippie Jerry Rubin in the "Trial of the Chicago 7" good stuff.

[Zorral]

Also want very much for Logan and Tom to die hard. 

 

[DaveSumm]

I do wonder what a satisfying ending would look like for this series. None of these people deserve a happy ending, it wouldn’t be fitting for them to have some moral epiphany and turn wonderful all of a sudden, and it’d feel weird if their luck just gradually erodes to the point where they’re all completely screwed. It’s what they deserve, but it’d make watching it pure schadenfreude and little else. 

It reminds me of The Sopranos, where David Chase seemed to lament how people actually enjoyed the characters he’d created and so he just tortured and killed them gradually in the last few seasons. It was a great series of course but it did get pretty bleak. I honestly have no idea how I want Succession to end.

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

Also want very much for Logan and Tom to die hard. 

 

I’ve come to respect Logan’s position. Terrible human and father but he’s got 4 useless parasites as children who don’t deserve the company. 
 

Also Tom is maybe one of the only likeable characters on the show. Odd to pick him out

26 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I do wonder what a satisfying ending would look like for this series. None of these people deserve a happy ending, it wouldn’t be fitting for them to have some moral epiphany and turn wonderful all of a sudden, and it’d feel weird if their luck just gradually erodes to the point where they’re all completely screwed. It’s what they deserve, but it’d make watching it pure schadenfreude and little else. 

It reminds me of The Sopranos, where David Chase seemed to lament how people actually enjoyed the characters he’d created and so he just tortured and killed them gradually in the last few seasons. It was a great series of course but it did get pretty bleak. I honestly have no idea how I want Succession to end.

I would have been fine for them to end it where it is. In fact I went in thinking the show would end after 3 seasons, quite disappointed in some way that it didn’t. Not a perfect ending but gives me enough closure to be satisfied 

[RumHam]

33 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It reminds me of The Sopranos, where David Chase seemed to lament how people actually enjoyed the characters he’d created and so he just tortured and killed them gradually in the last few seasons. It was a great series of course but it did get pretty bleak. I honestly have no idea how I want Succession to end.

That's interesting because it went the other way too. I read recently that he was upset with how people were rooting to see Tony die, after identifying with him for 50+ episodes. Hence the ending. 

I agree this last season finale could have served as the end. I wonder if next season will pick right up where it left off with the kids fighting the deal, or just skip ahead some years. Some sick part of me really wants to see Logan trying to be a father to the kid he had with his assistant 

[Winterfell is Burning]

46 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I’ve come to respect Logan’s position. Terrible human and father but he’s got 4 useless parasites as children who don’t deserve the company. 
 

 

True, but on the other hand, they became useless parasites in no small part because of his parenting.

[Zorral]

They all should die of bagel poisoning like the poor, innocent bunny.  All of them.  And soon.

[briantw]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:46 AM, Heartofice said:

This was the quickest I have binge watched a show in years. 3 seasons in over a week.

It’s just amazing isn’t it. What I love about it is that every singe character is pure awfulness, so much to hate. Yet there are always moments where they let you in and you just want to hug them.

Tom is such a shit, but also the most vulnerable. Maybe they are all utterly vulnerable which is why it’s so intriguing. It’s when you just get a glimmer of the real person, just for a flash that you understand why they are like how they are. 

It works, I think, because you understand why they're all terrible people, and it's because Logan was a terrible parent who constantly pitted them against each other, so there's no trust among siblings.  Tom, on the other hand, is impotent and constantly belittled, which is why he lashes out at his own underlings like Greg, as they're the only people he has any power over and, as he learned from the family he married into, he abuses it.

Greg is probably the only decent person in the bunch.

[Nictarion]

34 minutes ago, briantw said:

Greg is probably the only decent person in the bunch.

And yet he literally tried to sue Greenpeace.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Nobody there, Greg included, is a good person because the environment around Logan is so toxic everyone either leaves and severs all ties or gets corrupted.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Nictarion said:

And yet he literally tried to sue Greenpeace.

They've had it coming for a while.

[Zorral]

42 minutes ago, briantw said:

They've had it coming for a while.

 Never ever had any impulse to hug a single one of them -- even the idea of being the same room with such people is nauseating.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I'm voting for painful deaths all around. Toxic circle of meat sacks the lot of them.

[Veltigar]

17 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I do wonder what a satisfying ending would look like for this series. None of these people deserve a happy ending, it wouldn’t be fitting for them to have some moral epiphany and turn wonderful all of a sudden, and it’d feel weird if their luck just gradually erodes to the point where they’re all completely screwed. It’s what they deserve, but it’d make watching it pure schadenfreude and little else. 

It reminds me of The Sopranos, where David Chase seemed to lament how people actually enjoyed the characters he’d created and so he just tortured and killed them gradually in the last few seasons. It was a great series of course but it did get pretty bleak. I honestly have no idea how I want Succession to end.

I vote for the Succession equivalent of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre

17 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I’ve come to respect Logan’s position. Terrible human and father but he’s got 4 useless parasites as children who don’t deserve the company. 

Aside from @Winterfell is Burning's excellent point, I'd also add that he could have made it very clear from the outset that his company would leave active family management with his exit from it. Dangling the prize before them but not giving his kids the resources they needed to build character to run it was plain cruel of him.

Of course that is the point. Logan is the devil and he has this whole "après moi le deluge" mentality. He doesn't want his company to outlive him and even if he had competent heirs he wouldn't care.

And Tom's a piece of shit, just like everyone else on the show. He's just a little funnier than most.

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

 

Aside from @Winterfell is Burning's excellent point, I'd also add that he could have made it very clear from the outset that his company would leave active family management with his exit from it. Dangling the prize before them but not giving his kids the resources they needed to build character to run it was plain cruel of him.

Of course that is the point. Logan is the devil and he has this whole "après moi le deluge" mentality. He doesn't want his company to outlive him and even if he had competent heirs he wouldn't care.

And Tom's a piece of shit, just like everyone else on the show. He's just a little funnier than most.

I do think there has been an element of Logan wanting to leave his company to one of his children, its just that he's been constantly disappointed by them. There are moments where he suspects one of them might have what it takes, but then they fall flat. When Kendall betrays him at the end of S2, you can see the look of sly admiration on his face, that even while he's been betrayed, he deep down feels happy because it shows that one of his kids have that killer instinct.

Part of it all is that Logan grew up in adversity and regrets making his kids' lives so comfortable financially because it means they don't strive to get ahead in the way that he had to. I suspect he has tried to over compensate for that by being even colder and harsher than necessary to try and train them to be more like him (I guess also his parents were similar). He probably feels he is giving them the resources to succeed in a sort of Spartan 'leaving them to wolves' kind of way.

I disagree that he doesn't want his company to outlive him, in fact I think he feels his company is the one thing he genuinely loves, the one child that hasn't failed him. He'd rather pass it on to someone who will take care of it than someone who will destroy it.

[Calibandar]

On 1/7/2022 at 9:47 AM, Heartofice said:

Nice video about Tom's journey on the show and his decision in the final episode of S3. 

Its made me want to go back and rewatch the entire thing from scratch (something I want to do anyway) and just pay special attention to Tom. Of course Tom was my favourite character anyway, he's just so fun to watch, but the show does a thing of tricking you into thinking this is Kendall's journey, always making you think he will have a redemptive moment that means he wins after all. It means you pay less attention to all the little things going on in the background that don't appear to important to the overall plot.

Tom appears to be a side character. He's a fun watch, but it never feels like hes going to be affecting the big picture, so while his relationship with Shiv is compelling, it wasn't my main focus. Now going back and seeing just how his mental state changes over the seasons, how his relationship with Logan evolves and what led him to those final events might very much change how I view the show. 

It might also change my opinion of S3, which I found a little convoluted and repetitive, in so much as there are only so many deals that fail that I can keep in my head, and all felt a little grindy at times. Not that I didn't love the season, but that if I focussed more on the other stuff, I might get more out of it.

Tom really is the best character on the show and by far the best lines.

Standouts in season 3 for me were him repeatedly going to  low budget restaurants so that his stuck up poshy taste buds could get adjusted to prison food, and the scene where Kendall tries to get him on his side and he says that he doesnt want to upset him but I have seen you get fucked again and again Kendall, and Logan, never seen him see get fucked once

 

[Heartofice]

Realising that the guy who wrote Succession also wrote Peep Show was a massive Aha moment! I mean of course! You can really see the roots of it right there! So many messed up characters with similar disfunctions!

On top of that he wrote for in the thick of it, Four lions.. and childrens classics The Queens nose and Tracey Beaker. 
 

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm1104036/filmotype/writer?ref_=m_nmfm_1

[DaveSumm]

17 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I'm voting for painful deaths all around. Toxic circle of meat sacks the lot of them.

But what does this look like as a season of television? Logan has a heart attack, great, cut to Roman eating out of a bin, oh wonderful, and here’s Kendall trying to top himself. There’s no tension in it, and it would be an unpleasant viewing experience for the audience; they may deserve it, but that doesn’t make it good television.

I can see why people are saying this could’ve been the end, because it’s the moment they realise they could be screwed. I loved how Roman didn’t even entertain his Dad saying “he rates you!” about his prospects at the newly acquired company. On the face of it, he’s been in talks to take over, he’s been in the company for years, it shouldn’t be an absurd suggestion. But Roman immediately knew he was nothing without his Dad, that he didn’t have a prayer.

But quite what there is between that moment and a fitting ending, I’m not sure. Of course, Logan would never let his kids be that poor, if only for the bad press it would bring. Perhaps they’ll have to live on a measly $5M each (“You can’t do anything with five, Greg. Five’s a nightmare. Can’t retire, not worth it to work. The poorest rich person in America. The world’s tallest dwarf”).

[Veltigar]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I do think there has been an element of Logan wanting to leave his company to one of his children, its just that he's been constantly disappointed by them. There are moments where he suspects one of them might have what it takes, but then they fall flat. When Kendall betrays him at the end of S2, you can see the look of sly admiration on his face, that even while he's been betrayed, he deep down feels happy because it shows that one of his kids have that killer instinct.

Part of it all is that Logan grew up in adversity and regrets making his kids' lives so comfortable financially because it means they don't strive to get ahead in the way that he had to. I suspect he has tried to over compensate for that by being even colder and harsher than necessary to try and train them to be more like him (I guess also his parents were similar). He probably feels he is giving them the resources to succeed in a sort of Spartan 'leaving them to wolves' kind of way.

I disagree that he doesn't want his company to outlive him, in fact I think he feels his company is the one thing he genuinely loves, the one child that hasn't failed him. He'd rather pass it on to someone who will take care of it than someone who will destroy it.

I think the smile is more Logan finding a hint of a credible opponent in one of his children. He's already relishing the prospect of squashing him in advance. A bit like a cat with a mouse. They know the mouse isn't getting anywhere, but it's just more fun when it struggles a little bit.

I don't think Logan loves the company he build. He loves power, respect and victory over his opponents. If he can maintain those without actually owning the company I don't think he gives a rat's ass about it. In fact, his poor parenting is evil in my book, precisely because I do think most is deliberate. Logan wants the prestige of a pretend family business. He wants to be seen as this epic self-made man who founded an empire and groomed people to steward it, but he knows that having competent heirs would open him up to treats to his powers. I mean look at how close Logan has come to ruinous defeat by the hands of his idiot children. If any of them had been half-way competent he would have been forced to retire a lot sooner.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I can see Greg being nominated heir (because Logan can use him as a puppet, and it will piss off Gramps). It about to end with Greg being all smug, only for Logan to die, and Greg to shit himself as all the siblings come swooping round, scheming against him and each other, and he knows he’s no chance.