The Wheel of Time TV Show 6: A Few Turns to A Beginning

[fionwe1987]

7 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Yeah, I found this out already, but thanks. But I managed to watch it without Prime subscription.

Anyway, I loved the visuals. But I didn't like Egwene being a possible Dragon Reborn.

Also, apparently the ta'veren trio will be 20 at the start of the series, so the aging up in their case is very minimal, or maybe not at all.

The significant aging is of Egwene. Which is fine. It makes more sense for her to be 20 than 17 anyway.

I'm not a huge fan of the Egwene possibly being the DR, either. She doesn't need that to be a great character, and I hope this is either promo only, or something dropped very soon in the show. 

[Myrddin]

It kind of lessens the threat of the Dragon being reborn to save and destroy it, going mad in the process. In the books, savior/destroyer going mad all went together. Not hopefully the Dragon reborn isn't a man... crap. He'll go mad. Too bad the Creator didn't pick a woman.

The Prophecies all talk about him going mad, right? I've forgotten.

Hopefully this red herring is just for the trailer.

[Werthead]

There are indications that in other turnings the Dragon was a woman, but they might also be in ages where saidar was tainted and not saidin.

The idea that the DR might be a male soul in a female body (like Aran'gar later on), so would still be in danger of going mad etc, is an intriguing one. You'd imagine that possibility would be shut down pretty quickly when Moiraine realises that both Egwene and Nynaeve can channel, but it might create some additional tension in the first episode or two.

I feel this Amazon-exclusive trailer was much, much better than the earlier ones. There's more of a LotR vibe to the travelling and the more we see of Shadar Logoth looks pretty cool.

[fionwe1987]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There are indications that in other turnings the Dragon was a woman, but they might also be in ages where saidar was tainted and not saidin.

I thought RJ shot down the Female Dragon theory, while hinting there’s a female Hero who’s the Dragon’s counterpart?

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The idea that the DR might be a male soul in a female body (like Aran'gar later on), so would still be in danger of going mad etc, is an intriguing one. You'd imagine that possibility would be shut down pretty quickly when Moiraine realises that both Egwene and Nynaeve can channel, but it might create some additional tension in the first episode or two.

Yeah this just has the potential of totally not working, and muddying waters when it comes to viewer understanding of channeling.

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I feel this Amazon-exclusive trailer was much, much better than the earlier ones. There's more of a LotR vibe to the travelling and the more we see of Shadar Logoth looks pretty cool.

Agreed, the vibe was much better.

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I thought RJ shot down the Female Dragon theory, while hinting there’s a female Hero who’s the Dragon’s counterpart?

Amaresu, or something like that. 

[Poobah]

Yeah this was an actually good trailer, but the whole suggestion that the Dragon could be a woman is utter nonsense in the setting or at the very least completely changes the tone of so much of the worldbuilding - all the stuff about false dragons and the prophecies of salvation and destruction intermingled and wrapped up in the insanity of Lews Therin and the Breaking of the world in the history and general consciousness of the peoples of randland, how does it make any sense if the Dragon could be reborn as a woman channelling Saidar? Souls in WoT seem strictly gendered, and while that does allow for trans people (see Aran'gar, though icky and problematic in presentation it is an example of a soul getting jammed into a body that didn't align with it) unless they pretty much rewrote the entire story that was not a possibility the Aes Sedai or the world at large had ever considered.

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Amaresu, or something like that. 

Amaresu, who weilds the Sword of the Sun? That was speculation, never confirmed, I believe.

Especially since its very likely the counterpart soul is Egwene herself.

[Rhom]

19 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Amaresu, who weilds the Sword of the Sun? That was speculation, never confirmed, I believe.

Especially since its very likely the counterpart soul is Egwene herself.

In the link @Gertrude provided in the last thread when we were talking real world references.  I read it over and picked up a lot of things that I had either forgotten or never noticed.

Quote

Amaresu - Amaterasu, the Japanese goddess of the sun and one of the key figures in the Shinto religion. Amaresu also carries the Sword of the Sun. Robert Jordan has reportedly said that Amaresu is the female counterpart to the Dragon that can be woven out when the Wheel requires a female world-saviour

Its a Wiki, so take it for what its worth.   

[Ran]

22 minutes ago, Rhom said:

In the link @Gertrude provided in the last thread when we were talking real world references.  I read it over and picked up a lot of things that I had either forgotten or never noticed.

Its a Wiki, so take it for what its worth.   

I think that's a garbled version of this:

Quote

ROBERT JORDAN ...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable. 

He's not saying Ameresu, the Hero of the Horn, is the Dragon's female counterpart, just as Birgitte isn't. It's just that souls are always born male or always born female, and cites these great archetype characters as examples.

ETA: Well, more digging complicates it. A signing report with no real details about when or where has a couple people claim that RJ said that in some other Age, if the Pattern needed a female savior, it wouldn't spin out the Dragon (Rand's soul) but instead a female soul that is among the Heroes of the Horn  (which everyone assumes is Ameresu).  

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Yeah this was an actually good trailer, but the whole suggestion that the Dragon could be a woman is utter nonsense in the setting or at the very least completely changes the tone of so much of the worldbuilding - all the stuff about false dragons and the prophecies of salvation and destruction intermingled and wrapped up in the insanity of Lews Therin and the Breaking of the world in the history and general consciousness of the peoples of randland, how does it make any sense if the Dragon could be reborn as a woman channelling Saidar? Souls in WoT seem strictly gendered, and while that does allow for trans people (see Aran'gar, though icky and problematic in presentation it is an example of a soul getting jammed into a body that didn't align with it) unless they pretty much rewrote the entire story that was not a possibility the Aes Sedai or the world at large had ever considered.

One possibility is that Moiraine claims (in a roundabout way of course, without any literal lies) it can be Egwene in order to convince her to come along, while the actual reason would be Egwene's channeling ability. Either way, it's a change from the books and I hope Moiraine at no time seriously considers Egwene as a possible dragon candidate.

Being intentionally misleading to Egwene would require the TR people to not be aware the dragon is male, though. And it also presumes that simply asking Egwene to come with her in order to become Aes Sedai wouldn't be considered the better option.

The dragon being a man channeling tainted saidin is a cornerstone of WOT, IMO. Both alternatives run into problems. If the dragon can be a woman who channels saidar, then the paradoxal prophecies of being doomed by the saviour make no sense. If the dragon can be a woman who channels saidin, then the link saidar - male channeler and saidin - female channeler wouldn't be made automatically. Theoretically, the white tower would then have to search for both males channeling saidar (who could safely be made aes sedai, in that case) and for females channeling saidin (who would go mad and be just as destructive as most male channelers in this era).

Aran'Gar seems to be one of a kind, after direct intervention by the Dark One, and unknown to Aes Sedai.

 

[fionwe1987]

Yeah Amaresu being the one has always seemed more fable than truth, because there's no direct quote backing it up.

The wiki, btw, has a lot of assumptions. It's broadly a good resource, but many times, they'll cite a chapter as evidence where there's no evidence of the sort claimed, so always take what you read there with a big grain of salt.

And yes, I think the whole Dragon's rebirth being both the source of salvation and fear is a big part of the books that get obliterated if the Dragon could wield untainted saidar. 

Also, for Moiraine to dissemble so Egwene joins them, you'd have to remove that Egwene was the one willing traveler in the group. She wanted to leave the Two Rivers, as we see from her first interaction with Rand. Moiraine didn't have to drag her, she figured out they were leaving and gave them no choice but to take her along. I hope they preserve that, because that's what makes her a different, and fun character.

[SpaceChampion]

Ok, saw the promo, and all of you are making way too much of it.   There is no actual reason to believe anyone thinks a woman can be the Dragon Reborn based on that.  It's just a promo.  When have promos ever been made by the production crew?  The marketing team likely doesn't know all the nuances of the story or realize how the fans will take it.

It's going to be a long month.

[fionwe1987]

Moiraine says "them" when referring to the Dragon. Now, this could be a promo only voiceover, in which case, you'd be right.

But if it's from the show, that changes things, no?

[SpaceChampion]

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Moiraine says "them" when referring to the Dragon. Now, this could be a promo only voiceover, in which case, you'd be right.

But if it's from the show, that changes things, no?

The voiceover doesn't sound to me at all likely to be from the show.  And the 3 boys are a "them" anyway, so just because the visuals are cut a certain way doesn't mean anything.

[Corvinus85]

Until that quick montage of the boys and Egwene at the end of the trailer, there was no indication that Moiraine would be looking at anyone other than the boys for the DR.

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Also, for Moiraine to dissemble so Egwene joins them, you'd have to remove that Egwene was the one willing traveler in the group. She wanted to leave the Two Rivers, as we see from her first interaction with Rand. Moiraine didn't have to drag her, she figured out they were leaving and gave them no choice but to take her along. I hope they preserve that, because that's what makes her a different, and fun character.

Yeah, this would be an bad change. Egwene being willing to leave is a key part of her characterization. I really hope she won't be turned into another reluctant hero and leader, there are too many of these among the main characters already. 

[Lord Patrek]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Yeah, this would be an bad change.

A bad change in a tv adaptation of a bestselling fantasy or science fiction book sequence??? What are the odds??

I'd be shocked! 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Until that quick montage of the boys and Egwene at the end of the trailer, there was no indication that Moiraine would be looking at anyone other than the boys for the DR.

Not true. Egwene appears in multiple shots before, and while you can argue that’s just because she’s a major character, neither Lan nor Nynaeve appear much in these scenes. They’re clearly setting up that montage to make it clear Egwene is one of the 4 potential candidates, in the visual language of the clip, to me. Who they exclude says as much as who they include.

39 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

A bad change in a tv adaptation of a bestselling fantasy or science fiction book sequence??? What are the odds??

I'd be shocked! 

Hey, but the show has been taken over by a leftist cabal! Politically, having the female character be the only non-reluctant hero would align with their politics. Its almost like Robert Jordan decided its fun to be woke…

[karaddin]

The problem with Aran'gar is that they're written by someone who didn't have a good knowledge of what being trans is like. Fortunately there's a couple of ways to square the character in a way that don't completely alienate trans viewers, although such changes are obviously going to be undesirable to someone that hates to be reminded we exist.

1) Aran'gar experiences dysphoria. You really don't have to do much here and it's a tiny change, just make it clear that Aran'gar does not fit the body and it causes him considerable pain. This option says nothing about trans people in the world, this is a one of a kind scenario of a gendered/matured soul being jammed into an opposite sexed body. It's my preferred option if they don't want to put in the work to address trans people in any other way, since you can simply say that it's the process of gestation and birth that aligns a person with saidar or saidin making this example irrelevant. 

2) Balthamel is a trans woman who never accepted it/knew it. Aran'gar seems to enjoy being a woman quite a bit and once the initial shock is over, they really roll with it. You could choose this option if you want to make the status of trans people clear, but has a pretty invalidating gender essentialist message for trans people if you don't take it any further. 

3) Balthamel is a trans man who had transitioned and received appropriate treatments in the Age of Legends, which presumably were pretty fucking good. This is kind of a combination of 1&2 - being jammed back into a female sexed body would be very traumatic but I think that's ok when it's done by the DO - it pretty clearly wouldn't be meant to be ok. Would still piss off some people, but I think that's better than the trans antagonist gender essentialism of saying we're stuck channeling the wrong power, as that pretty clearly can map onto saying it's our "real" gender in a way that's both harmful to us, and encourages that attitude in others.

4) Trans people can't channel. This can pair with 1) to say that the same disruption to our development in utero that results in us being trans also disrupts whatever spiritual process happens to connect an individual to saidar/saidin. Again this isn't great and will upset some people, but it frames the negative within a dynamic we've already dealt with and accepted to some extent. 

5) Binary trans people can channel the side of the power that corresponds with who they actually are. While this doesn't directly contradict the book, I think after 14 books we can probably say that's enough absence of evidence to actually consider it evidence of absence - I'd view it as an outright change that adds actual complications to the story. It also doesn't give us any better as answer for how this world with a binary magic system treats non-binary people. And it sucks to have to admit both of those flaws with this approach, but it's an inbuilt limitation of the premise that's woven through the story RJ wrote. Obviously this option is implicit for 3) but you can do 3) without going into full detail and depicting us elsewhere in the story.

It's shitty to have to admit, but given the difficulties posed by the more inclusive options, along with lacking a good reason to believe it would be handled perfectly, I think my preference is actually 4) and 1). It's shitty to be excluded from the possibility of having powers in this fantasy setting, but it leaves room for trans people to still exist within the story without invalidating our genders/identities in any way. It also stays in solidarity with non-binary people instead of throwing them under the bus. It also just disrupts the story the least, I don't have any particular reason to distrust Rafe but it's a difficult issue and I don't have any reason to trust him on managing the complex job that would be required to "fix" the premise better.

[Lord Patrek]

Personally, I hope they don't change the role of any of the leads. They have their own importance at every juncture and I feel it would be a mistake to change that in any way. I don't like the casting, but I hope that in that at least they'll follow RJ's vision.

Every single show that veered away from the source material pretty much went down the crapper. And many of those looked good to begin with.

WoT, thus far in any case, looks a bit half-assed. It doesn't look like a high-budget production, even though it is. Everything is too bright and clean. The only scene we've seen so far is overdone and overacted, and cheesy to boot.

Also, TEotW is not necessarily the best installment in the series. For this to be a success, they need to attract mainstream audiences. From what we've seen up until this point, and what with them milking the "next GoT" thing for all it's worth, they are raising the bar high and don't look like they can deliver.

Anyone who loved the grittiness of GoT when it was good will likely not be wowed by WoT. Not in book format and not on television. . .