Jump to content

The Wheel of Time TV Show 6: A Few Turns to A Beginning


fionwe1987

Recommended Posts

29 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Personally, I hope they don't change the role of any of the leads. They have their own importance at every juncture and I feel it would be a mistake to change that in any way. I don't like the casting, but I hope that in that at least they'll follow RJ's vision.

Every single show that veered away from the source material pretty much went down the crapper. And many of those looked good to begin with.

WoT, thus far in any case, looks a bit half-assed. It doesn't look like a high-budget production, even though it is. Everything is too bright and clean. The only scene we've seen so far is overdone and overacted, and cheesy to boot.

Also, TEotW is not necessarily the best installment in the series. For this to be a success, they need to attract mainstream audiences. From what we've seen up until this point, and what with them milking the "next GoT" thing for all it's worth, they are raising the bar high and don't look like they can deliver.

Anyone who loved the grittiness of GoT when it was good will likely not be wowed by WoT. Not in book format and not on television. . . 

I'm OK with this. Not every period fantasy show needs to have a gritty, somber look, and characters don't have to always be dressed in dull colors.

Parts of season 1's plot will include elements from the second and maybe even third book. And they've already renewed it for season 2 so at least on Amazon's side there is confidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The problem with Aran'gar is that they're written by someone who didn't have a good knowledge of what being trans is like. Fortunately there's a couple of ways to square the character in a way that don't completely alienate trans viewers, although such changes are obviously going to be undesirable to someone that hates to be reminded we exist.

1) Aran'gar experiences dysphoria. You really don't have to do much here and it's a tiny change, just make it clear that Aran'gar does not fit the body and it causes him considerable pain. This option says nothing about trans people in the world, this is a one of a kind scenario of a gendered/matured soul being jammed into an opposite sexed body. It's my preferred option if they don't want to put in the work to address trans people in any other way, since you can simply say that it's the process of gestation and birth that aligns a person with saidar or saidin making this example irrelevant. 

2) Balthamel is a trans woman who never accepted it/knew it. Aran'gar seems to enjoy being a woman quite a bit and once the initial shock is over, they really roll with it. You could choose this option if you want to make the status of trans people clear, but has a pretty invalidating gender essentialist message for trans people if you don't take it any further. 

3) Balthamel is a trans man who had transitioned and received appropriate treatments in the Age of Legends, which presumably were pretty fucking good. This is kind of a combination of 1&2 - being jammed back into a female sexed body would be very traumatic but I think that's ok when it's done by the DO - it pretty clearly wouldn't be meant to be ok. Would still piss off some people, but I think that's better than the trans antagonist gender essentialism of saying we're stuck channeling the wrong power, as that pretty clearly can map onto saying it's our "real" gender in a way that's both harmful to us, and encourages that attitude in others.

4) Trans people can't channel. This can pair with 1) to say that the same disruption to our development in utero that results in us being trans also disrupts whatever spiritual process happens to connect an individual to saidar/saidin. Again this isn't great and will upset some people, but it frames the negative within a dynamic we've already dealt with and accepted to some extent. 

5) Binary trans people can channel the side of the power that corresponds with who they actually are. While this doesn't directly contradict the book, I think after 14 books we can probably say that's enough absence of evidence to actually consider it evidence of absence - I'd view it as an outright change that adds actual complications to the story. It also doesn't give us any better as answer for how this world with a binary magic system treats non-binary people. And it sucks to have to admit both of those flaws with this approach, but it's an inbuilt limitation of the premise that's woven through the story RJ wrote. Obviously this option is implicit for 3) but you can do 3) without going into full detail and depicting us elsewhere in the story.

It's shitty to have to admit, but given the difficulties posed by the more inclusive options, along with lacking a good reason to believe it would be handled perfectly, I think my preference is actually 4) and 1). It's shitty to be excluded from the possibility of having powers in this fantasy setting, but it leaves room for trans people to still exist within the story without invalidating our genders/identities in any way. It also stays in solidarity with non-binary people instead of throwing them under the bus. It also just disrupts the story the least, I don't have any particular reason to distrust Rafe but it's a difficult issue and I don't have any reason to trust him on managing the complex job that would be required to "fix" the premise better.

I have another option. It's been my headcanon, and I think it's plausible, though it would disrupt the story.

In the Age of Legends, we know channeling was advanced enough they'd easily be able to do transition if they wanted. Like in your third idea.

But while they were able to physically transition, they never managed to figure out how to shift from saidin to saidar. 

Eventually, they brought into the idea that regardless of your gender identity, you channeled the half of the Power you were born to touch.

In the Third Age, however, Nynaeve figures out a way to Heal Stilling. She is able to literally feel out the connection a person has to the soul, and repair it.

What's more, her repair, which she thinks of as a bridging, through a cut, works differently on men and women:

Quote

Something about that cut. . . . If it was bridged with Fire and Spirit, so. . . . It was the slight widening of Logain’s eyes that told her what she had done.

...

Saidar filled her, and she channeled as she had with Logain, blending all of the Five Powers. She knew what she was looking for this time, that almost-not-there-at-all sense of something cut. Spirit and Fire to mend the break, and. . . .

...

She felt the joining clearly as she channeled, though she still could not have said what it was she had joined. It felt different than with Logain—it had with Siuan as well—but as she kept telling herself, men and women were different. Light, I’m lucky this works on them as well as it did on him! That brought up an uncomfortable line of speculation. What if some things had to be Healed differently in men than in women? Maybe she did not know so very much more than the Yellows after all.

As we find out, it does end up not working as well. Siuan and Leane can channel again, but not at full strength, unlike Logain, who is able to channel at his old strength once Nynaeve Heals him.

When a man, Damer Flinn, figures this out and Heals a couple of women, however, they regain their old strength back fully. 

This is RJ implying that the connection to the source is the stuff of the "opposite" gendered half of the Power.

We get some further hints to this. When Cleansing the Source, Rand creates a tube of saidar to act as a conduit for all the saidin in the world. Here's something interesting he says:

Quote

Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar ’s own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it.

...

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.

With a conduit made from the opposing half of the Power, saidin flowed faster through it. And if the conduit had been made of saidin, Rand thinks it would have shattered if saidin touched it.

The way saidin and saidar repel each other helps one flow through a tube made of the other.

When Nynaeve bridges Siuan and Leane's cut connections, she creates a leaky patch. So they're unable to get the full flow of the Power that their connection actually supports. Thus, they are weaker. 

This fits the broader theme of the story too, that the kernel of the ability to channel is actually a tube of the opposite gendered half of the Power. 

The solution to someone who wants to transition and use the other half of the Power, then, is for Nynaeve and Damer, or an equally skilled pair of channelers, or more likely, a powerful circle, led by someone with immense Talent, to not just create a small bridge, but completely break down the existing connection and rebuild it with weaves of the other half of the Source.

For a trans man, break down his conduit of saidin that he was born with and build one of saidar. He will now be able to channel saidin.

For a trans woman, build her a connection of saidin, and she will channel saidar.

For any one non-binary, they may stick to what they were born with, or seek the other half, or even, perhaps, get access to two connections, if the "anatomy" of a soul allows it.

In RJs world, it is already shown that the One Power can be used to manipulate souls. We know souls could be injected into constructs like the Nym (Green Man). You can make wards keyed to a specific soul so it may be reborn thousands of years later and still be able to unlock the ward. You can rip the soul of a Hero of the Horn from the World of Dreams and throw it into the physical world. You can bond two people, and have them able to feel what the other feels, communicate telepathically the state of their body and emotions. And most importantly, channelers can link, use each other's connections to the Source to channel either half of the Power, feel each other's emotions and draw one each other's strengths. So this kind of modification of the soul isn't outlandish in the structure of the books.

Plus, Healing stilling/gentling was genuinely unknown in the 2nd Age. So this knowledge would be confirmed to be absent from that Age, so it's no wonder they didn't think it was possible to change which half of the Power you could channel.

This is, of course, speculative. But I feel it both respects the source material, draws on rules RJ himself established, and pushes things just enough to be plausible, for me. 

I might put this on Reddit to see the predictably explosion, actually. :D

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Parts of season 1's plot will include elements from the second and maybe even third book. And they've already renewed it for season 2 so at least on Amazon's side there is confidence.

Well, yes and no. After investing that much money into it and given the time it takes to shoot and go through post-production with this kind of project, as was the case with Foundation they almost have no choice but to green light a second season before they can even quantify just how well the first season did.

If it tanks, they might still have contractual leeway to pull the plug anyway. If it's good, people won't have to wait 2 years and lose interest for what comes next.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@fionwe1987 That's actually a much more creative solution and I like it. My first concern was going to be "but wouldn't that let you create a connection even for people who channel?" But no, the connection can be reliant on a "port" on the soul to connect to. This port then also functions as the limit on how much of the power one can draw, so in the case of reconfiguring things to be able to touch both for non-binary people it's not a hidden power up, they have the same max capacity.

This conceptualisation using fluid dynamics can also function as an explanation not just for saidin users seeming to be more powerful, but also it being more dangerous. Saidin is less "spiritually viscose" so it's flow rate through a pipe of the same size is higher, but the lower viscosity also makes it easier to pull too much of it and exceed your capacity (causing the pipe to rupture I guess?) but also escaping the shape that you're trying to weave it into.

And lastly your approach not only explains the absence in the past, but also in the time of the story. The only major issue I see with it is that you wouldn't get that answer until late in the story, so it might be best to pair it with my 4) for the early part so people don't assume the worst. I guess avoiding needing to address it until later can get you most of the way there. It's really only the AS policies that would reflect the society wide status rather than just "this individual can't channel".

ETA: To summarise, I really like the idea and would be entirely for the show going with that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, karaddin said:

@fionwe1987 That's actually a much more creative solution and I like it. My first concern was going to be "but wouldn't that let you create a connection even for people who channel?" But no, the connection can be reliant on a "port" on the soul to connect to. This port then also functions as the limit on how much of the power one can draw, so in the case of reconfiguring things to be able to touch both for non-binary people it's not a hidden power up, they have the same max capacity.

This conceptualisation using fluid dynamics can also function as an explanation not just for saidin users seeming to be more powerful, but also it being more dangerous. Saidin is less "spiritually viscose" so it's flow rate through a pipe of the same size is higher, but the lower viscosity also makes it easier to pull too much of it and exceed your capacity (causing the pipe to rupture I guess?) but also escaping the shape that you're trying to weave it into.

And lastly your approach not only explains the absence in the past, but also in the time of the story. The only major issue I see with it is that you wouldn't get that answer until late in the story, so it might be best to pair it with my 4) for the early part so people don't assume the worst. I guess avoiding needing to address it until later can get you most of the way there. It's really only the AS policies that would reflect the society wide status rather than just "this individual can't channel".

ETA: To summarise, I really like the idea and would be entirely for the show going with that

Thanks!

I have no idea if the show would even care to do something like this. But the seeds are there in the books.

And yes, that viscosity thing has been my explanation for the strength vs dexterity advantage that RJ gave male and female channelers respectively. Saidin is a wild torrent, we know. In fluid dynamic terms, it has high turbulence, so it takes a lot more mental energy just to direct it's flow without being ripped to shred.

So men end up drawing in a higher volume, but channeling it is hard, so they're wasteful/inefficient. They need a greater flow of it to achieve something.

Women have the opposite problem. They need to redirect a very strong, directed flow (on the surface, at least) to do their bidding. So you need to flow with it and redirect it, rather than try to force it. As we see when Rand tried to force it, it will just pull you in and expose you to it's strength:

Quote

Alongside the turmoil of saidin, saidar was a tranquil river flowing smoothly. He dipped into that river, and suddenly he was struggling against currents that tried to pull him further in, swirling whirlpools that tried to yank him under. The harder he struggled, the stronger the shifting fluxes grew. Only an instant since he had tried to control saidar, and already he felt as if he was drowning in it, being swept away into eternity. Nynaeve had warned him what he must do, but it seemed so foreign he had not truly believed until now. With an effort, he forced himself to stop fighting the currents, and as quickly as that the river was tranquil once more.

Saidar just won't bend to you, but if you don't fight it, you can guide it, and so once you're in sync with it, you can use it much more effectively, so women might have a weaker flow, but functionally, they can achieve the same results, which is what RJ said about how they match up, anyway. 

And I like your port idea. So the conduit is something that builds on the port, which will open no matter what if you're born with the spark, but needs to be guided to open if you can merely learn.

It may even be that for learners, it's a lot easier to switch the conduit before they first touch the source. We see physiological changes as you begin to learn to channel, and it takes time for that port to open fully anyway, so if you alter the conduit atop it before it ever opens, there's less difficulty than taking a conduit that has been reinforced by years of use with the opposite half of the Power. 

Not sure the show will go this deep into any of this. But honestly, they can even have someone like Nynaeve speculate about this, and while that wouldn't be centering trans or genderqueer experiences in any way, it would at least acknowledge them and posit a way for the very binary coded world of WoT to accommodate non-binary existence. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, I was just kind of hoping that they don't bother bringing back dead forsaken. I wasn't thinking of it as an area for representation for trans folk, so I get that it could mean a lot to people to have it included, and if they handle it well, it would be great. I was coming from a place that it was handled poorly in the books and I really didn't like dead forsaken popping up again. It felt like a cheap trick and I didn't think it really added anything essential to the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

To be honest, I was just kind of hoping that they don't bother bringing back dead forsaken. I wasn't thinking of it as an area for representation for trans folk, so I get that it could mean a lot to people to have it included, and if they handle it well, it would be great. I was coming from a place that it was handled poorly in the books and I really didn't like dead forsaken popping up again. It felt like a cheap trick and I didn't think it really added anything essential to the story.

Look that's actually my preference as well, I think the resurrections undercut what the Forsaken are meant to be, but I don't mean I see Aran'gar as potential representation - rather than there are (almost certainly unintended) implications from Aran'gar as written with zero trans people elsewhere. Everything I was discussing here was assuming I won't get my wish and ways to mitigate the harm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I'm not particularly fond of the resurrections either.

If they have to do it, I'd constrain it to Moridin alone. Lanfear was killed as "punishment". That seems needless. Ditto Graendal. The heroes kill neither of them, so they should just be kept alive. 

They definitely won't be able to get all the Forsaken the time they deserve, so whoever they can't focus on should take the place of Osan'gar and Aran'gar. 

It makes sense the Dark One will exert special influence for Ishamael. Not so much others, so I'll be glad if they don't expand on the reincarnation too much.

Aran'gar is troubling, but I do see the plot reason she existed, but there's a simple way out. Have it instead be a male Forsaken cross dressing. Maybe have Balthamel be genderqueer or something, completely comfortable using the Power to make himself look like a woman, and inhabiting such a body.

That takes care of allowing a Forsaken to get so close to Egwene without her being able to notice. As she certainly would if it was a saidar welding woman. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah the resurrected forsaken don't really do much anyway. I think if they do something positive with Aran'gar then I'd welcome it but I agree it's a troublesome area that'd take a good deal of explaining and finesse.

Honestly I wouldn't really be surprised if some of the Forsaken themselves are dropped altogether. Even the books weren't large enough to have the full squad as 13 as well developed and compelling villains (not to mention that there are a bunch of non-Forsaken villains too). Most of the male forsaken in particular are one-note villains that exist only for for a single book so they can die in the end after a big battle with Rand. Sammael, Demandred, and Be'lal even all have the same backstory of being a former general who turned from rivalry with Lews Therin (and as a result of Lews apparently being an insufferable knobhead) with only Demandred getting a little more development on top of that - I instinctually added Rahvin to this group too but googling him suggests he doesn't really even have much of a known backstory.

I'd much rather have a few Forsaken who get sufficient screen time to be well developed and iconic characters than a bunch of forgettable randos that most of the audience can't even remember who's who because there's too many of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

Well, yes and no. After investing that much money into it and given the time it takes to shoot and go through post-production with this kind of project, as was the case with Foundation they almost have no choice but to green light a second season before they can even quantify just how well the first season did.

If it tanks, they might still have contractual leeway to pull the plug anyway. If it's good, people won't have to wait 2 years and lose interest for what comes next.

They're more than halfway through filming Season 2, so no, they can't pull the plug on Season 2 at this juncture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Yeah the resurrected forsaken don't really do much anyway

Moridin, the resurrected Ishamael, does quite a lot. The rest, yeah, mostly less decisive or interesting, although Halima's malign influence with some of the characters around the Rebel Tower was interesting from what I vaguely remember.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Yeah the resurrected forsaken don't really do much anyway. I think if they do something positive with Aran'gar then I'd welcome it but I agree it's a troublesome area that'd take a good deal of explaining and finesse.

Honestly I wouldn't really be surprised if some of the Forsaken themselves are dropped altogether. Even the books weren't large enough to have the full squad as 13 as well developed and compelling villains (not to mention that there are a bunch of non-Forsaken villains too). Most of the male forsaken in particular are one-note villains that exist only for for a single book so they can die in the end after a big battle with Rand. Sammael, Demandred, and Be'lal even all have the same backstory of being a former general who turned from rivalry with Lews Therin (and as a result of Lews apparently being an insufferable knobhead) with only Demandred getting a little more development on top of that - I instinctually added Rahvin to this group too but googling him suggests he doesn't really even have much of a known backstory.

I'd much rather have a few Forsaken who get sufficient screen time to be well developed and iconic characters than a bunch of forgettable randos that most of the audience can't even remember who's who because there's too many of them.

Agreed. The reincarnated Lanfear and Greandal do do important things, but they were killed by the Shadow as punishment, so just don't have that happen. 

And they definitely won't be able to explore all 13, and you're right they don't get to do much in the books either. So I'd have Be'lal take the place of Osan'gar. Who'd take Aran'gar's place is more interesting.

Also, it's funny that Lews Therin managed to trigger enough jealousy in three of his top generals to the point they defected to the Shadow. Nice job hotshot!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm OK with this. Not every period fantasy show needs to have a gritty, somber look, and characters don't have to always be dressed in dull colors.

I agree.

But it doesn't have to look like Wot the musical, or WoT's drag race, either. :unsure:

I mean, the Whitecloaks could appear in their own Tide Pods commercial!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Moridin, the resurrected Ishamael, does quite a lot. The rest, yeah, mostly less decisive or interesting, although Halima's malign influence with some of the characters around the Rebel Tower was interesting from what I vaguely remember.

Tbh I wasn't even classifying him with the rest, he's very much his own case where not only is his continued presence necessary but his personality correction from death and rebirth is as well - that one just couldn't be cut.

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

It makes sense the Dark One will exert special influence for Ishamael. Not so much others, so I'll be glad if they don't expand on the reincarnation too much.

Agree with this as well though, I think treating his death as a special case works fine.

I think part of my issue with it is that with one life they're these huge looming figures who are genuinely scary early on, once they start resurrecting it not only takes away any triumph in killing them but also makes them less scary. If they can pop back up then the author doesn't have to be precise with using them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

Moridin, the resurrected Ishamael, does quite a lot. The rest, yeah, mostly less decisive or interesting, although Halima's malign influence with some of the characters around the Rebel Tower was interesting from what I vaguely remember.

Yeah like Karaddin I wasn't really counting Ishamael amongst their number, since he's pretty much the key Forsaken and overarching villain. I was mostly referring to Aran'gar and Osan'gar who might as well just be minion darkfriends or not exist, Halassim and Cyndane might as well just continue being Graendal and Lanfear respectively. Halima does do some stuff but equally her manipulative role in the rebel camp could be taken by Graendal or a slight retooling of Moghedien's role - having her stick around once freed to pay back Egwene by being the one to hurt, control, and manipulate her in turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I agree.

But it doesn't have to look like Wot the musical, or WoT's drag race, either. :unsure:

I mean, the Whitecloaks could appear in their own Tide Pods commercial!

Yeah, I mentioned that the Whitecloaks look bad, but it has to do more with the style than the pristine look. The books always described that they wear well polished armor and pristine white cloaks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

I agree.

But it doesn't have to look like Wot the musical, or WoT's drag race, either. :unsure:

I mean, the Whitecloaks could appear in their own Tide Pods commercial!

The Whitecloaks certainly look weird, but I'll reserve judgment. If this is meant to be their battle gear, then yeah, that's totally absurd.

If this is their holier-than-thou regular attire, it's ridiculous still, but fits their personality as a society, at least. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I also hope they cut out the humiliation, sexual and otherwise, that seems to befall many of the Black Ajah.

And the female Forsaken. It's absurd that every one of them but Semirhage gets raped, and Semirhage gets spanked into submission. 

I don't even mind Cadsuane's central realization that Semirhage's strength was the awe and fear she was able to invoke in everyone who faced her. Without lifting a finger, her fearsome reputation is enough to make everyone around her hesitate. 

But the opposite of fear and awe need not be humiliation. Or at least, not achieved this way. They should just have the Aiel take her. Declare her da'tsang, despicable one, and made to do humiliating public labor, like sorting through a pile of sand to find one grain of the right color that the Wise One wants. It's horrifying, but absolutely not sexualized, and it even seems fitting for someone as awful as Semirhage. Well, not really, but it's a whole lot better than her getting spanked once and suddenly she's broken!

Meanwhile, all the dudes get to die clean deaths. That is, for me, the worst failure of the series. It's definitely something they should feel free to change liberally. 

It makes no sense that an extra-reality entity would be into sexually dominating only women. It has no reason to have such a preference, and given that it's first interaction with humans, in this turning at least, was during the Age of Legends, it cannot have learned this from humans either. 

It is, frankly, sexist. Even more so given the backdrop of greater social and political power for women. I really will be disappointed if the show keeps this aspect intact. Might even make me give up on it in disgust. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...