The Wheel of Time TV Show 6: A Few Turns to A Beginning

[fionwe1987]

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

No, I meant that perhaps what is called "the old blood" is people who are reborn into the same lineage again and again. It reinforces their genetic memory and it comes to the fore. This doesn't mean everyone is born into the same lineage. Obviously, the old blood is a rare trait, which means most souls do not get repeatedly pulled back to the same lineage.

Ah, so a subset of souls somehow is born in the same lineage? I'm sorry, but there's no evidence for this. Theory that can reconcile the Old Blood concept with rebirth? Sure. Fact, no.

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

And mis-typed, that was a quote from TFH.

I don't think that's right. Entering through the twisted red doors was the only way to have the protection of the treaty, which substantially improved the chance of surviving the visit. Without it, less than "one in a thousand" survives.

Yep, but we also know more people tried in the past. That's how they actually have that statistic, I'd imagine.

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

We have no idea where the doorways were prior to this age. No particular reason to think they were in Manetheren, though. I'm guessing they were elsewhere and then got moved in Hawkwing's era, perhaps.

So, back to my point, the reason most of the memories that surface are from Manetheren are because of his genetic connection makes them rise up more readily.

Rise up from where? The ones he's stuffed with are based on the men who went in, then got out and had continued memories in the real world. If I'm understanding you right, you're saying he has many men's memories, but connects more with folks from Manetheren because of a genetic link?

Even if that is so, it isn't proof of anything about the Old Blood. One presumes if Mat was from Shienar, he'd see more memories related to men from that region, in this paradigm. 

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

I also see ToM actually references the old blood of Manetheren, obliquely, when Faile suggests that the Pattern needed Manetheren to fall and the Two Rivers to rise to give Rand a place to grow up safely among people with the "blood" of kings. But that's Sanderson, I suppose, not Jordan.

I don't get that, actually. There are descendents of kings all over the world. Faile is one herself, so I'm confused by her stating the Two Rivers is somehow unique in this. 

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

Skimming a bit more, I'm reminded that both times Mat went through the doorway, he ended up communicating with the Finn in fluent Old Tongue without realizing it -- before they filled his head with memories.

Yes, we're told his Old Tongue speech during stressful situations is atypically fluent. We see it when he's being Healed, too. Egwene has it, but less than Mat does. 

[Maltaran]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

We have no idea where the doorways were prior to this age. No particular reason to think they were in Manetheren, though. I'm guessing they were elsewhere and then got moved in Hawkwing's era, perhaps.

 

I'd guess the one in Rhuidean has been there since the Jenn built the city. The one in Tear is stated to have previously been in Mayene, but I don't think we're told how long for.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Maltaran said:

I'd guess the one in Rhuidean has been there since the Jenn built the city. The one in Tear is stated to have previously been in Mayene, but I don't think we're told how long for.

Right, yeah, that's true. The connection to Hawkwing makes me think that it wasn't originally in Mayene and got moved.

[fionwe1987]

I'd forgotten the Mayene part. I wonder if we're meant to assume Hawkwing himself made the trip? Or was it discovered by a First of Mayne, and so Hawkwing himself had no access?

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'd forgotten the Mayene part. I wonder if we're meant to assume Hawkwing himself made the trip? Or was it discovered by a First of Mayne, and so Hawkwing himself had no access?

We never see Mat have any memories of being Hawkwing, so likely he never went through the gate (assuming the general theory is correct and the memories are all from men who visited the Finn)

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

We never see Mat have any memories of being Hawkwing, so likely he never went through the gate (assuming the general theory is correct and the memories are all from men who visited the Finn)

We don't know if he got every memory the Finn possessed, though. We do know he remembers Hawkwing's face from having the memory of a contemporary. One who Hawkwing killed, if I remember right, and that he can remember Hawkwing's face was determinative in Tuon deciding to marry him, as she had a Fortelling from one of her damane about it. 

[Poobah]

18 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

We don't know if he got every memory the Finn possessed, though. We do know he remembers Hawkwing's face from having the memory of a contemporary. One who Hawkwing killed, if I remember right, and that he can remember Hawkwing's face was determinative in Tuon deciding to marry him, as she had a Fortelling from one of her damane about it. 

Worth noting that while I do think that Mat remembers Hawkwing from his Finn-gifted memories, he also remembers Hawkwing in his own lifetime, from Toman Head.

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Worth noting that while I do think that Mat remembers Hawkwing from his Finn-gifted memories, he also remembers Hawkwing in his own lifetime, from Toman Head.

Oh yeah. I think he mentions that despite losing a lot of memories from before his Healing, he does remember this one.

[Lord Patrek]

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

From my perspective, this is an established fantasy work that really has the framework to showcase a lot of diversity and I am glad they are leaning into it. As a child, I remember reading comic books and looking for women superheroes. I had Wonder Woman and Storm. I devoured Black Canary when I could find her. That was about it. My point is, I can empathize in some small way with people wanting to see faces that reflect theirs in their favorite media.

Like Ran, I'd like to see the diversity balance adjust as we move through different areas of the world. Not all Tairens are dark, but you're gonna see a lot more dark skin than in Cairhienen streets - that kind of thing.

I also think that using Jordan's dream cast as a basis for anything is not a good argument. Even his own casting didn't match his descriptions so it seems like he was going for the feel and screen presence of a character rather than specifically how they look. And of course, there is a tremendous white bias when thinking of actors to fit the bill, especially at that time and especially from his generation - naming Audrey Hepburn and James Garner kind of shows that IMO.

I understand that. I also get what you say when you wrote that "If I have to chose between the spirit of the books and the letter, I will chose spirit every time."

So let me ask you this. I already know the answer, but just want to know how you'd feel if they used white actresses in the forthcoming tv adaptations of Jemisin and Okorafor books? A-lister, Oscar-nominated or Oscar award-winning women, that nail everything perfectly. They knock it out of the park and are perfect for the lead roles. Other than these race-swaps, every other detail follows the novels down to the nitty-gritty. 

This would be a case of following the spirit of the book, even though it goes against the author's vision. How would you feel about that?

[Zorral]

Casting white actors as the black characters in the books would go against the very spirit of those books, which are imbued with Black experience and sensibility, as people who read their books know.

 

[Lord Patrek]

Okorafor's Who Fears Death, yes. Though it's more about African history and heritage and not just about being black in and of itself. Then again, as a post-apocalyptic story set in the far future, following a nuclear holocaust, you could turn it into a story featuring any ethnic group. Just look at how things how in the USA at the moment and it's not so far-fetched that things could regress to the point of female genital mutilation, etc. It wouldn't have to be an African backdrop.

The Broken Earth series, not so much.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

I understand that. I also get what you say when you wrote that "If I have to chose between the spirit of the books and the letter, I will chose spirit every time."

So let me ask you this. I already know the answer, but just want to know how you'd feel if they used white actresses in the forthcoming tv adaptations of Jemisin and Okorafor books? A-lister, Oscar-nominated or Oscar award-winning women, that nail everything perfectly. They knock it out of the park and are perfect for the lead roles. Other than these race-swaps, every other detail follows the novels down to the nitty-gritty. 

This would be a case of following the spirit of the book, even though it goes against the author's vision. How would you feel about that?

I'd say there's keeping to the spirit of the books, and then considerations for diversity in front of the screen, which is a consideration in our world, and removed from the content of the books.

Having a white actor play the lead in either of those roles wouldn't alter the books spirit, perhaps, though that's arguable for specific books. But there's absolutely an issue when it comes to doing that from a border Hollywood/TV perspective.

Right now, at this time, there is a dearth of roles that actors of color have access to. When roles coded as "white" in the popular imagination are cast as actors of color, you know perfectly well what follows. WoT is no exception, though we haven't had the worst of the kinds of abuse we've seen elsewhere happen.

In that context, taking away the few available roles to actors of color where they don't have the chance of facing that kind of abuse is definitely questionable. This is absolutely an economic argument, in response to a disparity in available jobs that is absolutely, unquestionably true. Of course, it has happened and continues to happen, despite that fact. 

In the future, when those disparities don't exist, hopefully we'll get to a point where any adaptation of any book can have actors of any race. I don't think anyone can honestly claim we're there yet. 

[Lord Patrek]

Diversity is all well and good, but respecting the author's vision is also important. I for one would love for the Okorafor and the Jemisin projects to feature all-black casts. Not because of diversity, but because it was how both authors envisioned those stories.

Given that the Two Rivers is a backwater village at the ass-end of Andor, there is no way the main cast can be as multicultural as it is. That goes against RJ's vision. Those casting decisions were made in the name of diversity. Personally, I don't like it when you mix current politics with SFF book adaptations. Unless it was part of the novels in the first place.

Those "purists" that want the books and the image of the characters to be respected have a right to be upset. Some don't mind and that's all right. But as I mentioned in the previous thread, to have such divisive casting choices early on wasn't necessarily good to begin with. And now that we have an underwhelming trailer, things aren't exactly looking up.

Given the response, it appears that a sizeable chunk might boycot the show, or else watch it for free instead of paying for it. Either way, with a new big-budget fantasy show meant to be the next GoT, what does it tell you when diehard fans are turning their backs on it before the first episode even aired?

Hell is paved with good intentions. Diversity is great. But it appears that the production may have taken things a bit too far and strayed quite a ways from Jordan's vision.

We'll see soon enough.

[fionwe1987]

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Diversity is all well and good, but respecting the author's vision is also important.

What does vision encompass, though? Every single thing in the book?

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

 I for one would love for the Okorafor and the Jemisin projects to feature all-black casts. Not because of diversity, but because it was how both authors envisioned those stories.

But a big part of their vision for those books is that the main characters aren’t white. In reaction to that being the typical fare in fantasy. But I don’t see any evidence that the Two Rivers being white, or homogenous, even, was hugely central to RJ’s conception of the world, and everyone who knew him who’s commented on this say the same.

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Given that the Two Rivers is a backwater village at the ass-end of Andor, there is no way the main cast can be as multicultural as it is. That goes against RJ's vision. Those casting decisions were made in the name of diversity. Personally, I don't like it when you mix current politics with SFF book adaptations. Unless it was part of the novels in the first place.

I challenge that a homogenous TR is part of RJ’s vision. It is no more so than Moiraine’s height, of which a lot is made in the books, that she is so commanding despite being so short.

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Those "purists" that want the books and the image of the characters to be respected have a right to be upset. Some don't mind and that's all right. But as I mentioned in the previous thread, to have such divisive casting choices early on wasn't necessarily good to begin with. And now that we have an underwhelming trailer, things aren't exactly looking up.

Of course they have a right. Heck, they can make their own Reddit thread to vent, and have. We’re not discussing if people can have that view. We’re discussing if that view is meaningful in judging the success of the show. 

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Given the response, it appears that a sizeable chunk might boycot the show, or else watch it for free instead of paying for it. Either way, with a new big-budget fantasy show meant to be the next GoT, what does it tell you when diehard fans are turning their backs on it before the first episode even aired?

That some diehard fans are being babies, and good riddance?

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Hell is paved with good intentions. Diversity is great. But it appears that the production may have taken things a bit too far and strayed quite a ways from Jordan's vision.

So we’re heading to hell now, for not casting white actors? The apocalyptic language associated with not having an all white cast is always eye opening.

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

We'll see soon enough.

Sure. But it won’t have anything to do with them having a multi-racial cast. 

[Lord Patrek]

If the leads are awesome and pull it off, in a few short weeks few, if any, fans will be talking about a multi-ethnic cast.

If they're as bad and caricaturesque as the actor portraying Lan in that Winespring Inn clip, then it might cringe-worthy in more ways than one.

What does RJ's vision encompass, you ask? Every single thing in the books? Of course not. Still, one would think that the way he described his cast of main protagonists would have been respected.

As I mentioned in the previous thread, there were plenty of opportunities to cast non-white actors/actresses for other roles, big and small. But for the Two Rivers crew? It's as odd as it would be to cast a white woman to play Okorafor's Onyesonwu or Jemisin's Essun.

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

So let me ask you this. I already know the answer, but just want to know how you'd feel if they used white actresses in the forthcoming tv adaptations of Jemisin and Okorafor books? A-lister, Oscar-nominated or Oscar award-winning women, that nail everything perfectly. They knock it out of the park and are perfect for the lead roles. Other than these race-swaps, every other detail follows the novels down to the nitty-gritty. 

This would be a case of following the spirit of the book, even though it goes against the author's vision. How would you feel about that?

I don't know those books, so I can't comment. Sorry.

[fionwe1987]

37 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

If the leads are awesome and pull it off, in a few short weeks few, if any, fans will be talking about a multi-ethnic cast.

If they're as bad and caricaturesque as the actor portraying Lan in that Winespring Inn clip, then it might cringe-worthy in more ways than one.

Exactly. And their being good or bad actors has nothing to do with their ethnicity.

37 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

What does RJ's vision encompass, you ask? Every single thing in the books? Of course not. Still, one would think that the way he described his cast of main protagonists would have been respected.

But it is. Egwene is pretty and has large eyes. Nynaeve has the braid and a somewhat more mature look than the rest of the TR crew, Perrin is big and curly haired, Mat looks mischievous, and so on. At least, the original actor looked right. The new guy, I'm not so sure of.

You're claiming that their skin color is the only part of their description that matters. Why is that?

37 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

As I mentioned in the previous thread, there were plenty of opportunities to cast non-white actors/actresses for other roles, big and small.

Really? Name some big roles in the next few books where you think non-white actors would fit the books. Faile, perhaps. Anyone else?

37 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

 

But for the Two Rivers crew? It's as odd as it would be to cast a white woman to play Okorafor's Onyesonwu or Jemisin's Essun.

No, it really isn't, because RJ makes it a point to say that they aren't as fair skinned as Rand, but doesn't give very hard specific on much beyond that. And before someone again tries to equate pale with white, please stop, that isn't the same. We also have quite a few quotes describing various TR folk as dark skinned, from Cenn Build to random farmers in Perrin's army. There's actually way more room for interpretation with the Two Rivers folk than with Elayne or the Aiel or any of the other upcoming major characters. 

[karaddin]

Personally I always pictured Moiraine as Japanese, or at least have ever since Fires of Heaven and retrospectively applied that filter, because I very much picture Cairhien as being heavily influenced by Japan. And yet I have no issues with Pike being cast as Moiraine, because the ethnicity of these characters it not playing much of a role in informing the characters. It may be planet Earth, but its not our world and it doesn't have our current views of ethnicity and bigotry - it has its own different in and out groups.

In the cases where the ethnicity was actually relevant to the character they appear to be sticking to it so far, we'll have to wait another season or two to see how closely they stick to it for the Aiel.

On a different note - the discussion of the Aefinn and Eelfinn has made me realise a couple of things

1. I'd never actually twigged to them being collectively referred to as The Finn which gives me a gaelic vibe, but the snake and fox people aren't drawing on any mythology I'm familiar with. Anyone know if they're actually inspired by anything or an original creation?
2. I've been imagining the twisted red stone doorways wrong this whole time. I always thought it was probably wrong, as what I was picturing was uncommon but not hard to comprehend - I'd basically been picturing the frame as narrow square/rectangles (similar size to uprights of a ladder) and twisted into a spiral, almost like a double helix kind of shape. Looking at the wiki for the Finn it prompted me to look at how others picture it, and essentially an Escher esque impossible geometry fits the reaction of the characters much better. I'll look forward to seeing how they depict it in the show

[Gigei]

https://www.gq.com/story/inside-amazons-wheel-of-time

Quote

“I've got a naked hot tub scene coming up,” he said

There's a naked hot tub scene with Lan? All I remember is Elayne's baths and Aiel sweat tents. I wonder if they are sexing up the series. A large part of GoT's success was due to the sexy bits, IMO.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Personally I always pictured Moiraine as Japanese, or at least have ever since Fires of Heaven and retrospectively applied that filter, because I very much picture Cairhien as being heavily influenced by Japan. And yet I have no issues with Pike being cast as Moiraine, because the ethnicity of these characters it not playing much of a role in informing the characters. It may be planet Earth, but its not our world and it doesn't have our current views of ethnicity and bigotry - it has its own different in and out groups.

In the cases where the ethnicity was actually relevant to the character they appear to be sticking to it so far, we'll have to wait another season or two to see how closely they stick to it for the Aiel.

On a different note - the discussion of the Aefinn and Eelfinn has made me realise a couple of things

1. I'd never actually twigged to them being collectively referred to as The Finn which gives me a gaelic vibe, but the snake and fox people aren't drawing on any mythology I'm familiar with. Anyone know if they're actually inspired by anything or an original creation?
2. I've been imagining the twisted red stone doorways wrong this whole time. I always thought it was probably wrong, as what I was picturing was uncommon but not hard to comprehend - I'd basically been picturing the frame as narrow square/rectangles (similar size to uprights of a ladder) and twisted into a spiral, almost like a double helix kind of shape. Looking at the wiki for the Finn it prompted me to look at how others picture it, and essentially an Escher esque impossible geometry fits the reaction of the characters much better. I'll look forward to seeing how they depict it in the show

The Finn are mesnt to be elves/faerie crewtures i believe, or in-lore, the inspiration for such tales.

Interestongly there’s a legendary Celtic figure called Tamlin al’Thor