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The Wheel of Time TV Show 6: A Few Turns to A Beginning


fionwe1987
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I believe that deaths of Aes Sedai would be few and far between. If someone as high up the hierarchy only has a couple of rings, it means that it's a rather rare occurrence.

Regarding your other point, I disagree. Trying to wipe out the Whitecloaks would only increase the hatred that some people have against the Aes Sedai and ensure that the sentiment would continue through the years. Also, it would have tarnished their image of the all-powerful One Power wielder. Better to have a few deaths over the years when the Children of the Light get lucky than to show the world that they are indeed vulnerable and give ideas to others to foment more discord and orchestrate more effective attacks against Sisters.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I believe that deaths of Aes Sedai would be few and far between. If someone as high up the hierarchy only has a couple of rings, it means that it's a rather rare occurrence.

Fair enough.

2 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Regarding your other point, I disagree. Trying to wipe out the Whitecloaks would only increase the hatred that some people have against the Aes Sedai and ensure that the sentiment would continue through the years. Also, it would have tarnished their image of the all-powerful One Power wielder. Better to have a few deaths over the years when the Children of the Light get lucky than to show the world that they are indeed vulnerable and give ideas to others to foment more discord and orchestrate more effective attacks against Sisters.

That's what I said, I thought. There's a number of deaths where this strategy makes sense. And if it's a few over the years, that works. If it's many sisters dying every year, it doesn't. 

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Considering that the tv show appears to be a "the future that liberals want" version of WoT, I highly doubt that production would go down that road concerning the Whitecloaks. Violence against women is not exactly something that RJ portrayed in any case and I can't see the showrunners deciding to go for that.

It would add another dimension to the Children of the Light, but production stated multiple times how they planned to emphasize the prominent and progressive way WoT depicted women (as opposed to GoT). I just don't see that happening and this theory will likely get debunked in the near future.

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A more menacing Whitecloaks would concentrate on murdering little girls on their way to the White Tower who want to learn to be Aes Sedai.  Or hell, even murdering those leaving the WT but proved incapable of becoming Accepted.

This would give a reason why it is so important for any women found with the ability to hold the One Power to be escorted by an Aes Sedai all the way to Tar Valon, to avoid the Whitecloak murder squads.  Such women do not have to be afraid of darkfriends alone, their own neighbors would endanger them.  Delay going to the Tower even a week could be enough to get you killed.

Edited by SpaceChampion
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15 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Given the direction of the show, you truly believe that they'd change the Whitecloaks in such a fashion? It would go against the nature of Judkins is trying to create.

Yes. It would be comically easy to turn the sexist KKK, which is pretty much how RJ wrote the Whitecloaks, to be even more menacing and fun for everyone to hate on. If the goal is to be pushing the agenda of "the left" that's exactly what they'd do.

Happily, their goal seems to not be to push some specific political agenda. If "lack of gratuitous violence against women" is somehow a politically fraught story choice, then I think the issue is with the neckbeards who want to jerk off to that happening on screen, not with the production. 

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If they push WCs too far into the despicable range, then it'll be harder for Galad to join them eventually. They need to present the WCs anti-magic philosophy as a real point of view, if skewed. Leaning too hard into KKK (white uniforms notwithstanding) symbolism will make Galad's "truth to a fault" mindset extremely misguided. 

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11 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

If they push WCs too far into the despicable range, then it'll be harder for Galad to join them eventually. They need to present the WCs anti-magic philosophy as a real point of view, if skewed. Leaning too hard into KKK (white uniforms notwithstanding) symbolism will make Galad's "truth to a fault" mindset extremely misguided. 

I'm not sure they need to change anything from the books to make the WC despicable. It's not like the first meeting with them, which we see through Perrin's eyes, shows them in anything but a despicable light, and that continues, including with them sitting out the battle in the Two Rivers.

Galad's decision is meant to be a silly one done in a fit of pique. And then he later fights the corruption at the heart of the WC and gets them doing something close to the right thing by the end.

But I don't think RJ gives the Whitecloaks much in the way of range. They're shown to be pretty awful, preying on the weak and conducting pogroms at will to "cleanse" the world. 

Quote

Keeping his gaze on Bornhald, Perrin lifted a hand, and silence descended slowly. When all was quiet, he said, “I said I would not resist, if you aided.” Surprising, how calm his voice was; inside he seethed with a slow, cold anger. “If you aided, Whitecloak. Where were you?” The man did not answer.

Daise Congar stepped out from the encircling throng with Wit, who clung to her as if he never intended to let go of her again. For that matter, her stout arm was wrapped around Wit’s shoulders in much the same fashion. They made an odd picture as she planted her pitchfork-polearm firmly, her the taller by a head and holding her considerably smaller husband as though she meant to protect him. “They were on the Green,” she announced loudly, “all lined up and sitting their horses pretty as girls ready for a dance at Sunday. They never stirred. It was that that made us come . . .” A fierce murmur of agreement rippled from the women. “. . . when we saw you were about to be overrun, and they just sat there like bumps on a log!”

Bornhald did not take his eyes from Perrin for an instant; he did not even blink. “Did you think I would trust you?” he sneered. “Your plan only failed because these others arrived—yes?—and you can claim no part in that.” Faile shifted; without looking away from the man, Perrin laid a finger across her lips just as she opened her mouth. She bit him—hard—but she did not say anything.

Bornhald’s voice finally began to rise. “I will see you hang, Shadowspawn. I will see you hang, whatever it takes! I will see you dead if the world burns!” The last came as a shout. Byar’s sword slid a hand of bare steel from its scabbard; a massive Whitecloak behind him—Farran, Perrin thought his name was—drew his completely, with a pleased smile rather than Byar’s toothy snarl.

They froze as quivers rattled to arrows being drawn, and bows came up all around the circle, fletchings drawn to ear, every broadhead shaft pointed at a Whitecloak. Up and down the thick column, high-cantled saddles creaked as men shifted uneasily. Bornhald showed no sign of fear, and he did not smell of it, either; his scent was all hate. He ran almost fevered eyes over the Two Rivers folk encircling his men and returned them to Perrin just as hot and hate-filled.

You don't really need to do much to make them despicable. They already are. You can practically taste RJ's contempt for them.

Edited by fionwe1987
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My recollection is that Geofram Bornhald and Pedron Niall were both shown as zealous but not really despicable people. They believed they were a shield against evil, defending the righteous from the Dark One and those touched by him. 

Like, everyone else in the westlands is merciless towards darkfriends. The Children just think channelers are by default darkfriends.

Edited by Ran
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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

My recollection is that Geofram Bornhald and Pedron Niall were both shown as zealous but not really despicable people. They believed they were a shield against evil, defending the righteous from the Dark One and those touched by him. 

Like, everyone else in the westlands is merciless towards darkfriends. The Children just think channelers are by default darkfriends.

Niall attempted to extend the Children's influence in Altara which started the Whitecloak War. And in the books timeline, he basically started a false flag campaign in the Almoth Plain to get people to fear the Dragon Reborn, with the hopes of increasing his reputation. I forget the exact quote, something about loosing a lion in a crowd, and then killing it and becoming the people's hero.

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1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Niall attempted to extend the Children's influence in Altara which started the Whitecloak War. And in the books timeline, he basically started a false flag campaign in the Almoth Plain to get people to fear the Dragon Reborn, with the hopes of increasing his reputation. I forget the exact quote, something about loosing a lion in a crowd, and then killing it and becoming the people's hero.

He's basically a king going to war to extend his domains. A lot of people are going to be considered despicable if that's the standard. Like Rand, for one. There's very little difference between Rand and Niall, given that Niall believed what he was doing was righteous and for the good of all in defending against the Dark One.

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30 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

If they push WCs too far into the despicable range, then it'll be harder for Galad to join them eventually. They need to present the WCs anti-magic philosophy as a real point of view, if skewed. Leaning too hard into KKK (white uniforms notwithstanding) symbolism will make Galad's "truth to a fault" mindset extremely misguided. 

Galad joining the Whitecloaks never made sense in the books either. They were still Morgase's main enemies at this point. And his reasoning was absolutely idiotic "The Amyrlin is risking Elayne's life and lying about it, so I should join an organization most members of which would love to torture and kill Elayne, not to mention my beloved stepmother".

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

He's basically a king going to war to extend his domains. A lot of people are going to be considered despicable if that's the standard. Like Rand, for one. There's very little difference between Rand and Niall, given that Niall believed what he was doing was righteous and for the good of all in defending against the Dark One.

There's a lot different between Rand and Niall. He spends time skeptical of his Prophesied role. He is only finally convinced by ironclad evidence, and even then, his expansion plans focus on a land ravaged by civil war, though Moiraine rightly points out the same number of people would die either way.

Later, as he steadily gets more mad, sure. I can see justification for comparison to Niall, perhaps, in terms of tactics and lack of care for collateral damage. But Niall never questions his (self) righteous belief that he's doing what is needed to defeat evil. And that's what distinguishes him from Rand.

Bornhald at least tries to avoid killing people at random, but by Niall's orders, the town he's sent to has been "pacified":

Quote

“We have been waiting for you, Lord Captain Bornhald,” the leader said in a harsh voice. He was a tall, hook-nosed man with the gleam of certainty in his eyes that every Questioner had. “You could have made better time. I am Einor Saren, second to Jaichim Carridin, who commands the Hand of the Light in Tarabon.” The Hand of the Light—the Hand that dug out truth, so they said. They did not like the name Questioners. “There is a bridge at the village. Have your men move across. We will talk in the inn. It is surprisingly comfortable.”

“I was told by the Lord Captain Commander himself to avoid all eyes.”

“The village has been . . . pacified. Now move your men. I command, now. I have orders with the Lord Captain Commander’s seal, if you doubt.”

Bornhald suppressed the growl that rose in his throat. Pacified. He wondered if the bodies had been piled outside the village, or if they had been thrown into the river. It would be like the Questioners, cold enough to kill an entire village for secrecy and stupid enough to throw the bodies into the river to float downstream and trumpet their deed from Alcruna to Tanchico.

“What I doubt is why I am in Tarabon with two thousand men, Questioner.” Saren’s face tightened, but his voice remained harsh and demanding.

“It is simple, Lord Captain. There are towns and villages across Almoth Plain with none in authority above a mayor or a Town Council. It is past time they were brought to the Light. There will be many Darkfriends in such places.”

The Whitecloaks as a whole, with a few exceptions, kill first and find "evidence" that you're a Darkfriend later to justify the death. Let's not give them too much credit, hmm?

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2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Whitecloaks as a whole, with a few exceptions

Yes, I'm talking about the exceptions.

Again, Niall has an ironclad belief that he is right. He acts in that regard. Rand's doubts don't change the fact that he too comes to believe, and goes about conquest and stuff, which will surely result in the deaths of innocents, because he believes that's the only way. 

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11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yes, I'm talking about the exceptions.

Again, Niall has an ironclad belief that he is right. He acts in that regard.

Mordeth, and Ishamael, also believe that...

And again, I must point out that the quote above shows Niall ordering a general pogrom in Amloth Plain, led by the Questioners, who, at the time of this quote, have already wiped out an entire town for the crime of having eyes. At what point does "certainty that you're doing things for the greater good" stop mattering?

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rand's doubts don't change the fact that he too comes to believe, and goes about conquest and stuff, which will surely result in the deaths of innocents, because he believes that's the only way. 

But he doesn't actively order the death of innocents, at the beginning, like Niall is doing here. When he gets to that point, it is explicitly made clear he's gone off the bend. He is, at that point, as evil as Niall here. So I'm not sure this comparison is doing what you're thinking it is. 

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5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Mordeth, and Ishamael, also believe that...

We know too little of Mordeth's actual motivations before he was consumed by evil for me to say. But Ishamael? I don't think he's despicable, as such. I'm not sure RJ did either, given the way he wrote Moridin.

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

My recollection is that Geofram Bornhald and Pedron Niall were both shown as zealous but not really despicable people. They believed they were a shield against evil, defending the righteous from the Dark One and those touched by him. 

Like, everyone else in the westlands is merciless towards darkfriends. The Children just think channelers are by default darkfriends.

Bornhald is clearly introduced as a half-mad zealot in the first book. Perrin has the impression that his grandfatherly attitude is just the facade of a fanatic who basically has condemned anyone he is questioning. He is capable of reasoning but this doesn't mean he gives us the benefit of the doubt.

That said - the same guy is presented quite differently in the second book when we get events from his POV. If one were to give Jordan the benefit of the doubt - which I do not - then one could say that Perrin's assessment of the man was clouded by the fact that he was Bornhald's prisoner, etc.

But I'd say it is just a clumsy retcon. Jordan wanted a Whitecloak commander as a POV in the second book was neither a Darkfriend nor a mad zealot, so he changed Bornhald's personality to fit that build instead of inventing a new character.

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9 minutes ago, Ran said:

We know too little of Mordeth's actual motivations before he was consumed by evil for me to say. But Ishamael? I don't think he's despicable, as such. I'm not sure RJ did either, given the way he wrote Moridin.

He wrote him as impressive. Not as someone who was right.

Mordeth's motivation was to defeat the Shadow. He hates it, deeply. So deeply he uses it's own tactics against it, which births Mashadar.

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