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The tragedy of the lannisters


Daenerysthegreat
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1) A wonderful woman is born to a kind mother and strict father. She has a delightful twin brother. Her father promises her that she will marry an handsome and good prince when she grows up. The wonderful woman dreams if her happy life with her twin brother, her mother, father and the perfect prince. However her mother dies giving birth to an ugly dwarf. 

2) The wonderful woman decides to go to a prophetess on the day she was going to be engaged to the prince with her best friend coming with her. However, the wonderful woman learns to her sorrow that she will Supplanted by an more beautiful queen and her cruel dwarf brother will kill her. On the same day, the Prince's cruel father breaks their engagement. 

3) The wonderful woman falls in love with her twin brother, they make a plan to stay together forever. The cruel king takes the twin as his personal guard, making him unable to be the father's heir. The twin and the wonderful woman are happy that they can finally be together now but the father seperates them. 

4) The cruel king is overthrown in a rebellion. The cruel king plans to burn the palace and all the innocent people in it since the father has also joined the rebellion. To prevent this from happening the twin kills the king. Then an proud and egoistic man, who is one of the leaders of the rebellion arrivea, without listening to the twin's explanation, he makes the twin a criminal. An agreement is reached, the wonderful woman will marry the new king, the usurper. On their wedding night the usurper rapes the wonderful woman, ignoring her screams. 

 

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Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) A wonderful woman is born to a kind mother and strict father. She has a delightful twin brother. Her father promises her that she will marry an handsome and good prince when she grows up. The wonderful woman dreams if her happy life with her twin brother, her mother, father and the perfect prince. However her mother dies giving birth to an ugly dwarf. 

2) The wonderful woman decides to go to a prophetess on the day she was going to be engaged to the prince with her best friend coming with her. However, the wonderful woman learns to her sorrow that she will Supplanted by an more beautiful queen and her cruel dwarf brother will kill her. On the same day, the Prince's cruel father breaks their engagement. 

3) The wonderful woman falls in love with her twin brother, they make a plan to stay together forever. The cruel king takes the twin as his personal guard, making him unable to be the father's heir. The twin and the wonderful woman are happy that they can finally be together now but the father seperates them. 

4) The cruel king is overthrown in a rebellion. The cruel king plans to burn the palace and all the innocent people in it since the father has also joined the rebellion. To prevent this from happening the twin kills the king. Then an proud and egoistic man, who is one of the leaders of the rebellion arrivea, without listening to the twin's explanation, he makes the twin a criminal. An agreement is reached, the wonderful woman will marry the new king, the usurper. On their wedding night the usurper rapes the wonderful woman, ignoring her screams. 

 

This is the second of the three tragedy threads. So what do you all think

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21 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

A wonderful woman

Cersei is not a wonderful woman. Even as a child she showed signs of cruelty and narcissism. Of all the main Lannisters, Cersei is the least tragic. Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin all have more elements of tragedy about them than Cersei does, in my opinion.

 

24 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Then an proud and egoistic man, who is one of the leaders of the rebellion arrivea, without listening to the twin's explanation, he makes the twin a criminal

Jaime did not offer any explanation, though. He believed it was beneath his dignity as a Lannister to explain any of his actions, a very Tywin-esque attitude.

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9 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Cersei is not a wonderful woman. Even as a child she showed signs of cruelty and narcissism. Of all the main Lannisters, Cersei is the least tragic. Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin all have more elements of tragedy about them than Cersei does, in my opinion.

 

 Excuse me, Being raped is not tragic? How can you say such things. I have not seen Jaime or tywin or tyrion being raped. When a woman is raped, he dignity is snatched away from her. She feels dirty and violated. 

I ask you woman to woman how on earth is being raped not tragic

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7 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Excuse me, Being raped is not tragic?

It's a horrible thing, no one is saying it isn't. But there's a difference between a horrible thing, and a tragic thing. The traditional understanding of the word "tragedy", coming from the ancient Greek plays, was that it was a story about the downfall of a character through some flaw of their own, usually something like pride or envy. You seem to have conflated "tragic" with "bad", but they aren't the same thing.

Also, Cersei has raped someone, too - Taena Merryweather. Where's your sympathy for her?

12 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I ask you woman to woman

I'm not a woman, and I don't need to be to understand the horror of rape. To believe so is insulting and closed-minded.

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29 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

It's a horrible thing, no one is saying it isn't. But there's a difference between a horrible thing, and a tragic thing. The traditional understanding of the word "tragedy", coming from the ancient Greek plays, was that it was a story about the downfall of a character through some flaw of their own, usually something like pride or envy. You seem to have conflated "tragic" with "bad", but they aren't the same thing.

 

The word being traditional. The meaning has changed a lot. 

30 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

 

I'm not a woman, and I don't need to be to understand the horror of rape. To believe so is insulting and closed-minded.

I thought you were from the profile pic

You were asking why I called cersei wonderful woman. I called bran beautiful boy so it's a series

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13 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The word being traditional. The meaning has changed a lot. 

No it hasn't. If "tragic" is simply another word for "bad", "sad", "awful", etc., what's the point of even using the word tragic? What's the difference between "tragic" and these other words, according to you and your new definition of it? 

14 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I thought you were from the profile pic

That's Heather Mason, the protagonist from the video game Silent Hill 3. I don't need to be a female to like her character.

 

15 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

You were asking why I called cersei wonderful woman

I wasn't asking, actually. I just said that she isn't wonderful. And she isn't. She's narcissistic, cruel, vindictive, treacherous and petty. As a child she tormented her younger brother; as an adult she's ordered the murder of many children, including a baby; sent several people into dungeons to be brutally tortured to death, and raped another woman (Taena). She is a vile person, just as evil as Tywin was. If you think she's wonderful, that makes me seriously concerned about your moral code.

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1) Cersei is NOT a wonderful woman. Her childhood up to a point could be described as tragic, but only up to a point. Blaming Tyrion for her mother's death was beyond cruel and Cersei ceased being sympathetic there.

2) You seem to have left out the part where Cersei murdered her friend.

3) Honestly Jaime and Cersei's love seemed to be one sided to me. Jaime certainly is a romantic and fell heads over heel for Cersei. Does Cersei love Jaime? Considering the way she treats him and manipulates him emotionally? I'd say no. For me, Cersei's attraction to Jaime was the fact that he was the male version of herself in her eyes. Who better for a narcissist to be attracted to? Cersei attacks Jaime every time he steps out of the image she has created for him. Which is tragic for the character of Jaime. He's arguably one of the more heroic characters in the series, with the notable exception of the actions that stem from his relationship with Cersei.

4) I don't care what people say about vows, Jaime killing Aerys was a good thing. Him sitting on the truth about the wildfire plot felt... forced for the needs of the plot and for everyone to think of him as the Kingslayer. Robert didn't rape Cersei on their wedding night though. He ruined it by whispering Lyanna's name into her ear.

 

A few things could be mentioned as left out. Tyrion's treatment by his family should be included. I'd say Tommen having to grow up around that "wonderful woman" of a mother emotionally abusing him should count. He's such a sweet kid and I'm afraid she'll poison that assuming they both live along enough. Myrcella's maiming in the queenmaker plot certainly counts. Lancel could be considered a tragic character and I'm interested to see how he turns out in his service to the Faith. 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

1) Cersei is NOT a wonderful woman. Her childhood up to a point could be described as tragic, but only up to a point. Blaming Tyrion for her mother's death was beyond cruel and Cersei ceased being sympathetic there.

2) You seem to have left out the part where Cersei murdered her friend.

3) Honestly Jaime and Cersei's love seemed to be one sided to me. Jaime certainly is a romantic and fell heads over heel for Cersei. Does Cersei love Jaime? Considering the way she treats him and manipulates him emotionally? I'd say no. For me, Cersei's attraction to Jaime was the fact that he was the male version of herself in her eyes. Who better for a narcissist to be attracted to? Cersei attacks Jaime every time he steps out of the image she has created for him. Which is tragic for the character of Jaime. He's arguably one of the more heroic characters in the series, with the notable exception of the actions that stem from his relationship with Cersei.

4) I don't care what people say about vows, Jaime killing Aerys was a good thing. Him sitting on the truth about the wildfire plot felt... forced for the needs of the plot and for everyone to think of him as the Kingslayer. Robert didn't rape Cersei on their wedding night though. He ruined it by whispering Lyanna's name into her ear.

 

Ill clear it once and for all. I've used wonderful woman for cersei because arguably she's the most lannister of all lannisters around. Thus Jaime is the twin and tyrion is the vile dwarf. 

Just like I've used beautiful boy from bran and am going to use glorious girl for dany

 

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4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) A wonderful woman is born to a kind mother and strict father. She has a delightful twin brother. Her father promises her that she will marry an handsome and good prince when she grows up. The wonderful woman dreams if her happy life with her twin brother, her mother, father and the perfect prince. However her mother dies giving birth to an ugly dwarf. 

2) The wonderful woman decides to go to a prophetess on the day she was going to be engaged to the prince with her best friend coming with her. However, the wonderful woman learns to her sorrow that she will Supplanted by an more beautiful queen and her cruel dwarf brother will kill her. On the same day, the Prince's cruel father breaks their engagement. 

3) The wonderful woman falls in love with her twin brother, they make a plan to stay together forever. The cruel king takes the twin as his personal guard, making him unable to be the father's heir. The twin and the wonderful woman are happy that they can finally be together now but the father seperates them. 

Cersei was never wonderful and will never be. She started abusing Tyrion since he was a newborn, she killed her best friend at the mature age of 10 because she was jealous and she chose to witness her friend screaming while she was drowning. Jaime becoming a KG was her idea not Jaime's. Her crimes as an adult know no bounds. She is a vile, cruel, manipilative, and deluded person.

The engagement with Rhaegar never happened either.

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5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

2) The wonderful woman decides to go to a prophetess on the day she was going to be engaged to the prince with her best friend coming with her. However, the wonderful woman learns to her sorrow that she will Supplanted by an more beautiful queen and her cruel dwarf brother will kill her. On the same day, the Prince's cruel father breaks their engagement. 

rejecting "the wonderful woman" for his son was literally the best decision that prince's cruel daddy ever made:closedeyes:. Rhaegar supposedly left his sweet ,kind and clever wife  Elia to run off with someone else triggering a war that killed thousands..... who knows what he would have done if he had to marry Cersei...!!

Edited by EggBlue
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4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

However, the wonderful woman learns to her sorrow that she will Supplanted by an more beautiful queen and her cruel dwarf brother will kill her.

Maggy said that "The Valonqar" will kill her, not Tyrion.

This is Cersei's interpretation of the prophecy but it could be someone else: Jaime for example because he's her younger brother as well or any cadet of a family who'd like to kill her. After all, she didn't say "your valonqar" and the phrasing is important for the interpretation of a prophecy, it may be very tricky and Cersei will definitely fall for it.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

On their wedding night the usurper rapes the wonderful woman, ignoring her screams.

In a medieval point of view, which Martin tries to emulate, it is not rape since they were married and it's one of her duties to sexually satisfy Robert thus it didn't happen on their first night but the following ones. Different times, different ideals.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I ask you woman to woman how on earth is being raped not tragic

Men can be rape you know, by other men and even women.

Easier to reduce the spectrum on women, but not fair.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

she's the most lannister of all lannisters around.

Well you should define what a Lannister because it's pretty blurry.

If you refer to physical appearence, then Jaime is not less Lannister than her, the extended family as well (except Tyrion). If you are talking about the personnality then you will have a lot of trouble, because there is not a clear pattern. If it's about "who is the closest to Tywin" (most likely scenario) then Tyrion is a step ahead of her.

Admit it, it's because she is a female character and as a female, you identify yourself with her. I don't blame you for this, I do the same for male characters.

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5) The dwarf and the twin come upon a crofter's  daughter on a road. She is being pursued by bandits. The two resuce her from the bandits. The dwarf falls in love with the girl and marries her. However fate is cruel and the father learns of this marriage. He forces the twin to confess the truth, the girl was a scarlet woman arranged by the twin. The father then has his daughter in law raped and forces the dwarf to participate. 

6) The wonderful woman and the twin have three children two boys and a girl. They must keep the children hidden or the usurper will kill them all. The usurper's heartless brother and his foster father find out about it. They have a issue with her sleeping with another man but no issue with the usurper cheating on the wonderful woman. Mercifully the foster father dies. 

7) The usurper takes all of them to the proud Lord. There he promises the hand of the eldest son to the proud Lord's stupid daughter. Later when the wonderful woman and the twin are doing a dance of love, the proud Lord's middle child, a wretched boy catches them. The twin makes a big mistake and throws the boy to his death, making him a cripple. 

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The Lannisters have mostly gotten what they paid for. The one character who has hope of redemption is Jamie. I'm not sure how Jamie will survive his meeting with Lady Stoneheart, but I do think he will fulfill his quest from the beginning and he and Brienne will bring both Arya and Sansa back to Winterfell. In fact though Jamie will have nothing to do directly with the death of the Freys, I do think he will not stand in Arya's way either. The Freys will get what they deserved. 

If I wrote it I would put Arya in Kings Landing, killing people and changing faces to get closer to Cersei. Perhaps she kills Cersei using the face of Tyrian. What a winteresque horror show that would be, Arya pilling up dead bodies in Kings landing while everyone is helpless to find her. 

Edited by remiel6
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42 minutes ago, remiel6 said:

If I wrote it I would put Arya in Kings Landing, killing people and changing faces to get closer to Cersei. Perhaps she kills Cersei using the face of Tyrian.

And it would fulfill Cerceis prophecy about the valonquar somewhat. But I always thought the FM can only put on faces of dead people.

I wouldn't picture Cercei as a tragic character, much of her downfall will be her own doing. She is not stupid, but her decision making process is definetly clouded by petty thoughts and narcisstic tendencies.

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45 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

 

I wouldn't picture Cercei as a tragic character, much of her downfall will be her own doing. She is not stupid, but her decision making process is definetly clouded by petty thoughts and narcisstic tendencies.

 

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

It's a horrible thing, no one is saying it isn't. But there's a difference between a horrible thing, and a tragic thing. The traditional understanding of the word "tragedy", coming from the ancient Greek plays, was that it was a story about the downfall of a character through some flaw of their own, usually something like pride or envy. You seem to have conflated "tragic" with "bad", but they aren't the same thing.

 

 

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I was under the impression a tragic characters downfall is ultimately not his own fault, I think I have to look this up.

EDIT: Well I was obviously wrong. I guess I didn't see her as tragic because I can not sympathize with her all to much, which seems to be a characterization for the 'tragic hero'.

Edited by TheSamsa
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9 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

It's a horrible thing, no one is saying it isn't. But there's a difference between a horrible thing, and a tragic thing. The traditional understanding of the word "tragedy", coming from the ancient Greek plays, was that it was a story about the downfall of a character through some flaw of their own, usually something like pride or envy. You seem to have conflated "tragic" with "bad", but they aren't the same thing.

 

I think one could argue Cersei's life is that of a tragedy. the mistake she made is pride but also hubris in the classical sense. she thought she could subvert prophecy and thus brought about her own doom. She's like king Laius of oedipus rex, she was a terrible person, had about everything she wanted, and in her vanity and hubris brought about her own destruction. classically speaking a tragedy is just a serious story where things start out well for a person and end badly usually due to their own weakness. Cersei was a queen to a king when the story started and became an imprisoned dowager with a dead son in a fractured realm.

 

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding
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30 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

 

I think one could argue Cersei's life is that of a tragedy. the mistake she made is pride but also hubris in the classical sense. she thought she could subvert prophecy and thus brought about her own doom. She's like king Laius of oedipus rex, she was a terrible person, had about everything she wanted, and in her vanity and hubris brought about her own destruction. classically speaking a tragedy is just a serious story where things start out well for a person and end badly usually do to their own weakness. Cersei was a queen to a king when the story started and became an imprisoned dowager with a dead son in a fractured realm.

 

Cersei started as the golden daughter to the hand of the king who was king in all but name. 

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