The tragedy of the lannisters

[frenin]

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

To start off, Cersei loves her kids.

So does Lucius Malfoy...

Anyway Martin himself argued that Cersei's love for her children is just because she sees them as an extension of herself.

Cersei's appalling treatment of Tommen, she routinely abuses him and even subjects him to psychological torture just to coerce him into shutting up and leaving her the ruling bit. So, we should put that "she loves her children" in context.

 

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There is also enough evidence to show that she loves Jaime even though her feelings for him are very unhealthy an in Feast for Crows she starts mistreating him. For example, in the past she once kissed Tyrion even though she despises him simply because Jaime had asked her to do it. When Jaime is captured by the Starks, Tyrion approaches Cersei and tells her that he has a plan to release him. After she hears this, she allows him to take the position of Hand of the King and it should also be noted that she mutters his name when Tyrion mentions this. There is also a moment where Cersei tells to Tyrion that the reason why she hasn't killed him for kidnapping Tommen is because Jaime would hate her for it. There is also a scene where Jaime goes to explore the secret tunnels of the Red Keep with only one hand and when Cersei learns this, she yells at the guards for allowing Jaime to go in the dark tunnels with only one hand. In Feast for Crows their relationship becomes really strained (mostly because of Cersei's actions) and Cersei sends him away. However, we see Cersei's POV chapters both in Feast and Dance and there is enough evidence that she misses him and wants him back even though she tries to deny it to herself

 

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I don't know if I would call this love rather than obsession and narcissism but it's true they cared for each other.

 

 

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Aside from those things, Cersei also has deep insecurities that her father doesn't appreciate her and is jealous of Jaime because he receives more attention simply because he is a boy even though he is younger than her.

Isn't it curious that Cersei wants a preferential treatment because one absurd barrier, age and not only that but coming from the womb seconds before someone, but resents not having said preferential treatment because of another absurd barrier, sex?

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

However, he was always cold to her

Was he?? He's cold to Tyrion but Cersei was one of his glorious twins.

Why would he be cold to her?

 

 

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

The reason for this is because Cersei never had any friends since she was 10 years old 

She killed the last one. And never cared to have more after.

 

 

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

We also see the double sexist standard again because Robert is allowed to cheat on her while Cersei can't cheat on him or otherwise she and her children would be executed

She can cheat on him, not legally ofc but eh, but no one but Stannis abd Robert's ego would care much if she ever just cuckold him.

What she shouldn't do is trying to pass her bastards as legits, kick-starting a brutal civil war. You'll notice that Robert's bastards remain bastards.

I don't agree with much of what you've said but there's no point in addressing bit by bit.

 

 

I do enjoy Cersei tho, she's by far my favourite Lannister, precisely because she's not like her brothers, she's not trying to find redemption or pretending to be a better person than she is. She doesn't care about that, she wants power and control, she wants to be free of her chains. It's refreshing.

 

 

 

 

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this is why I don't blame her for her actions in the first book against Robert and Ned considering that they were driven out of self-preservation and if she didn't do them, she and her kids would have been executed for the crime of "cheating"

This is again misleading and you know it. People's problem is that Cersei's passing her children as Robert's because she very much wants the throne.

Even after she's offered an out, she still plots to get the Throne even if it ultimately torns the country apart, dragging her family with her at the end.

[WhatAnArtist!]

Certain people only defend Cersei and justify her actions because she's a woman. That's a fact. If any male character did what she did, they'd be completely and utterly demonised and ranked among the very worst characters in the series. 

• Tormenting her infant brother, including abusing him by inflicting pain on his genitals
• Murdering her best friend
• Ordering the massacre of the Stark household
• Ordering the murders of Robert's bastard children, including babies
• Having a prostitute beaten and threatened with rape
• Turning a blind eye to Joffrey's abuse and threats to Sansa
• Sending innocent people into the dungeons to be tortured/experimented on by Qyburn
• Framing several innocent young women for serious crimes and getting them imprisoned
• Psychologically tormenting her youngest child with threats and verbal abuse
• Raping Taena Merryweather

I just.... I don't even know what else needs to be said. These are the actions of an evil, vile person. The fact that people are willing to justify this because "she grew up in a sexist environment" is just appalling. There are countless female characters in the series that grew up in the same environment as her that are good, honest and moral people. Such an environment can certainly justify her being an angry, cold and uncaring person, yes. But not a complete psychopath that delights in inflicting suffering on innocent people. It seriously disturbs me to wonder about the morals of people that are so quick to defend Cersei. It makes me wonder the type of crimes and atrocities they'll justify in real life.

[Daenerysthegreat]

3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Certain people only defend Cersei and justify her actions because she's a woman. That's a fact. If any male character did what she did, they'd be completely and utterly demonised and ranked among the very worst characters in the series. 

• Tormenting her infant brother, including abusing him by inflicting pain on his genitals
• Murdering her best friend
• Ordering the massacre of the Stark household
• Ordering the murders of Robert's bastard children, including babies
• Having a prostitute beaten and threatened with rape
• Turning a blind eye to Joffrey's abuse and threats to Sansa
• Sending innocent people into the dungeons to be tortured/experimented on by Qyburn
• Framing several innocent young women for serious crimes and getting them imprisoned
• Psychologically tormenting her youngest child with threats and verbal abuse
• Raping Taena Merryweather

I just.... I don't even know what else needs to be said. These are the actions of an evil, vile person. The fact that people are willing to justify this because "she grew up in a sexist environment" is just appalling. There are countless female characters in the series that grew up in the same environment as her that are good, honest and moral people. Such an environment can certainly justify her being an angry, cold and uncaring person, yes. But not a complete psychopath that delights in inflicting suffering on innocent people. It seriously disturbs me to wonder about the morals of people that are so quick to defend Cersei. It makes me wonder the type of crimes and atrocities they'll justify in real life.

Certain people also overlook the usurper' crimes. His rape of cersei is justified as medieval laws by them

If the usurper can apply medieval law and rape cersei then why can't cersei apply the same law. 

Weren't you one of those who was telling me About these medieval laws and how they should be followed by cersei. 

[EggBlue]

Cersei is a sympathetic figure and she is an evil person. 

They don't contradict in anyway. 

- she loves her children in her own way ... but she literally abuses Tommen ... think about it ..her favorite is Joffrey ...what does it say about her?

-she loves Jaimie in her own way but in a way she exploits him

- she was messed up by her father but that's merely an explanation for her actions rather than an excuse.

- she was abused by Robert but while it explains her ever growing lost for power, it doesn't justify the means she employs to get it

- she hates the fact she was born a woman in this society which makes us feel for her but it doesn't make her way of thinking ( for example septas are probably wish to get raped) ok

- Cersei's walk of shame was gut wrenching but it still doesn't suddenly turn Cersei from a horrible woman to heroine . it only makes her a vile woman who is the product of her environment and is now Wronged again which will probably will be even worse due to this

- as for all her insecurities they are again where we feel for her and understand her . nothing more. you could compare her to Dany who also has many insecurities and was abused all her life. yet she makes different choices.

37 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Certain people also overlook the usurper' crimes. His rape of cersei is justified as medieval laws by them

they are most certainly WRONG.

 

[frenin]

4 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Certain people only defend Cersei and justify her actions because she's a woman. That's a fact.

I don't think so, I'd say it's because they like her.

Rationalizing the actions of Robert, Cersei, Stannis, Rhaegar or Rhaenrya to put some examples, is purely because people like them. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If the usurper can apply medieval law and rape cersei then why can't cersei apply the same law. 

Cersei is guilty of every crime but the one "raping Taena", which always seem to me more disturbing and weird than an actual crime anyway, under medieval law.

In fact she's several guilty of treason under medieval law. Murdering her King, Cheating the King's persona, Passing her kids as the King's trueborn children, framing the Queen... Cersei would have been burned five times just for that.

Medieval laws also doesn't sanction infanticide and human experiments.

 

I'd say that given medieval law is incredibly sexist, trying to use it to explain away Cersei's misbehaviour is certainly going to be view much worse.

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Certain people also overlook the usurper' crimes. His rape of cersei is justified as medieval laws by them

In my case I didn't try to justify it or even say he did well, but brought some nuance to what you've said. Since Cersei is his wife, his abuses would not be considered as rape in medieval times, only in modern times. Cersei is still an awful woman who have done a lot of bad stuffs, the fact that she has been abused by her husband doesn't explain or justify why she behaves as she did, she was rotten since her childhood. Do you realize that you are putting Robert's abuses above all she has done? Just because both of you are female?

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If the usurper can apply medieval law and rape cersei then why can't cersei apply the same law. 

Because there is no gender equality in Westeros, plain and simple.

Cersei lives in a medieval society's emulation, this won't change, the books' events must be placed in this context, not in our modern society.

[EggBlue]

10 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

 Since Cersei is his wife, his abuses would not be considered as rape in medieval times, only in modern times.

it's not considered rape in their time but we see it's affect on Cersei plainly and is one of the more important contributing factors to Cersei's behavior alongside Tywin's years of ...well.. misguidance( which clearly has its affects on all of his children.)  , therefore it matters to discuss it.

 

 

[WhatAnArtist!]

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Certain people also overlook the usurper' crimes

Ah, whataboutism. The classic response of someone that isn't willing or able to rebutt any actual points. I fail to see how Robert's "crimes" have anything to do with Cersei's. Cersei tormented Tyrion and murdered Melara before she met Robert, and all of her other evil actions occured after Robert's death. I'll wait for you to provide an explanation as to how Robert had anything to do with Cersei's evil actions, and I hope it isn't the same tired old "He abused her and so that's her excuse to do whatever evil thing she wants". You might personally believe that (as in fact I belive you do), but I'd prefer to see a rational justification instead.

5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

His rape of cersei is justified as medieval laws by them

If the usurper can apply medieval law and rape cersei then why can't cersei apply the same law. 

It's only "justified" because they are husband and wife, and under medieval law a husband cannot rape his wife. But Cersei's rape of Taena has no legal justification, since she is not Taena's husband. 

5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Weren't you one of those who was telling me About these medieval laws and how they should be followed by cersei. 

No. As usual you're wrong in your assumptions about other posters and what they said.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

But Cersei's rape of Taena has no legal justification, since she is not Taena's husband. 

Mind you we don't have Taena's POV but the encounter seemed consensual on her part. She even offered to reciprocate after. Cersei seemed more want to "feel" what it was like to force herself on someone while thinking of what Robert did to her. I think part of why Cersei felt let down in the end was that Taena didn't struggle, fight or feel violated. So maybe the intent was there, but Taena seemed ok with it.

[Jaenara Belarys]

18 hours ago, frenin said:

Cersei's appalling treatment of Tommen, she routinely abuses him and even subjects him to psychological torture just to coerce him into shutting up and leaving her the ruling bit. So, we should put that "she loves her children" in context.

 

The whipping boy for example. 

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Certain people also overlook the usurper' crimes. His rape of cersei is justified as medieval laws by them

 

I'm not trying to justify it, but by the laws of this medieval world we speak of, it's a woman's "duty" to have sex with her husband and produce heirs for said husband so therefore.....by the "laws" of the Western Hellhole  it is justified in Planetos.