Unrealistic things and events in the books? (Disregarding magic, ice zombies, and dragons)

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But shouldn’t Robert have been stopping along the way too?

Who? Robert?

He didn't cared about his people, so he didn't wanted to listen to their grievances. Thus he wasn't chit-chatting with the citizens while he was on his way to Winterfell, same while he was on the way back. And Cersei, who didn't wanted to go at all, and didn't wanted her children to go, she wanted to go back home as soon as possible, so she wouldn't have tolerated if Robert was unnecessary prolonging their journey.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I actually found it a little weird that Alysanne was willing to be away from her kids for that long.

She was a mother, though she was also a human being, and thus sometimes she wanted to rest from everyone, including her husband and children.

Also it's likely that she wanted to be apart from the King, to exercise her own power too, not to be constantly overshadowed by her royal husband/brother. She wanted to show to others and to herself too that she herself is worthy and capable of doing something on her own, that she is also a royalty, and that she is smart and capable and nice, and people will love her for who she is and not for just being Jaehaerys' wife.

So she wanted to be away from them, to be herself, even if for just awhile. Not Jaehaerys' wife Alysanne, not someone's mother Alysanne, but just herself - Queen Alysanne to whom people came with their grievances, and to whom she herself helped as just Alysanne and not as someone's appendage.

See? ->

"According to Archmaester Gyldayn, Alysanne grew restless of waiting for Jaehaerys at Winterfell and decided to travel to Castle Black at the Wall.^[5] Bran Stark however, claims that Alysanne grew bored only after Jaehaerys had arrived at the north, and flew to the Wall while Jaehaerys discussed matters with his Warden of the North.^[1] "

She wanted to get some rest from her husband, who was also her brother, and siblings could be so annoying. And after he had arrived to Winterfell, people stopped paying any attention to her. She was completely overshadowed by his presense. People stopped coming to her and went to him and him only. It's like she became invisible to them, and they all forgot everything that she did for them. So while Jaehaerys was kept busy with Lord Stark, Alysanne had escaped to The Wall, to be away from her husband for as long as possible.

By 58 AC (the year of that Royal Progress) she already had three children - Aemon, Baelon and Daenerys. So she wanted to get away from them too. Children are sooooo tiring, and annoying, and stupid. And she at that time was only 28 years old, so she wanted to get a  small vacation from being a mother, and to live for herself even if just for a little bit.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This was when her first three kids were still little, so Alysanne and Jaehaerys hadn’t had their falling out yet (that started after Daella died).

Jaehaerys and Alysanne had problems even before their "official" quarrels.

"First and Second Quarrel

In 80 AC, following threats made by King Jaehaerys I, Alysanne finally succeeded, after several failed attempts, in arranging a marriage for her daughter Daella, who was wed to Lord Rodrik Arryn in early 81 AC. After a year and a half of marriage, Daella wrote to Alysanne to inform her of her pregnancy, telling her mother that she was frightened and asking her to come. Alysanne flew to the Vale, arriving three months before Daella was due. Alysanne remained with Daella until she gave birth. Daella went into labor a fortnight too early, and had a long and troubled labor. Although her daughter, Aemma Arryn, was healthy, Daella soon fell ill and died. According to Archmaester Gyldayn, Daella’s death was the first hint of the rift that was to open between Alysanne and Jaehaerys, as Alysanne believed Daella had been pushed into marriage at too early an age, and blamed Jaehaerys for insisting their daughter was wed this young."

 

Not everything was good between them even before Daella's death. See there above? -> he THREATENED her and bullied her into arranging a marriage for their daughter.

In 80 Daella was 16 years old, so Jaehaerys thought that she's old enough to get married, considering that his own wife had married him when she was only 14. It appears that he was completely ignorant of the fact that his wife was regretting getting married so young. They had problems long before Daella's death, maybe as far back as since the beginning of their marriage, so everything between them was not as joyous (despite them having 13 children) as people thought.

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

It appears that he was completely ignorant of the fact that his wife was regretting getting married so young.

Where'd she say that? I don't remember her saying anything about that....

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

And she at that time was only 28 years old,

22 years old  

[dsjj251]

On 10/21/2021 at 6:25 AM, Willam Stark said:

A thread have been made on this particular topic

Westeros is way too large for the story told in the saga, the size of France would be much more realistic. The overall time span is too extended, especially for the evolution of societies and languages, I have proposed a realistic chronology that would bring the overall time span to 2300 years. The entire plot should be rewritten if we want realism actually.

 

 

if you ignore the over exaggerations , the timeline is actually about 3000 years or less

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Where'd she say that? I don't remember her saying anything about that....

Isn't it kind of obvious even without her saying it?

BECAUSE - she thought that Daella being 16, is too young to get married, and that's even though Alysanne herself got married when she was even younger than that - only 14 years old.

If Alysanne thought that early/young marriages are a good thing, if she had judged so based on her own life and marriage experience, then she wouldn't have thought that her 16-years old daughter shouldn't get married on the basis of being too young. But she thought so, and thus it appears that she was against early-young marriages, because her own early-young marriage turned out for her not good.

On the outside of their marriage everything between Alysanne and Jaehaerys looked as if though they were happy and good, but over the years she got tired of pretending, of constantly stepping back and agreeing with everything her husband said or did (even when she was against it), and when their quarrels became too grand to stay hidden from the public eye, only then the people have found out about it. Years after they actually started quarreling.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Isn't it kind of obvious even without her saying it?

 

I know that she didn't want Daella to be married at sixteen. I was asking about where Alysanne said that she regretted being married so young. 

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Isn't it kind of obvious even without her saying it?

BECAUSE - she thought that Daella being 16, is too young to get married, and that's even though Alysanne herself got married when she was even younger than that - only 14 years old.

I'm not sure this passage can be taken as an indication that, as a general rule, GRRM and Alysanne think that 16, or even 14, is always too young.

I can't speak for GRRM, and I definitely don't speak for myself.  But the thought did occur to me, while reading the books, that the problems associated with such things as incest and early teen marriage are most noticeable with those who are pushed into such things; and that maybe GRRM is not saying "absolute no to incest" or "absolute no to marriage below 17", but rather trust the instincts of the girl and don't push her.

Me, I say:  just say no to incest and early-teen sex.  But I think all GRRM and Alysanne are saying is that Jahaerys should have listened to Daella's instincts.

[Ran]

Alysanne's opinion that Daella was too young has very little to do with her biological age and everything to do with the fact that Daella was so immature and fragile, mentally-speaking.

[The Bard of Banefort]

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

Alysanne's opinion that Daella was too young has very little to do with her biological age and everything to do with the fact that Daella was so immature and fragile, mentally-speaking.

Agreed. F&B also compares the two, saying that whereas Alysanne was fearless, Daella was always afraid. 

For all of Alysanne’s virtues, she’s not perfect. She leaves Jaehaerys for not naming Rhaenys his heir, despite Rhaenys being next in line, but doesn’t seem to make the connection that she and Jaehaerys did the same thing to Rhaena thirty years earlier, and therefore helped set a precedent. And Viserra got a hell of a raw deal. It really did feel like she was being punished for being ambitious and beautiful (even if she never did anything that actually harmed anyone). At least Alysanne felt remorse for how she treated her afterwards. It’s just too bad Viserra wasn’t around to see it. . .

[Lord Varys]

On 10/22/2021 at 5:56 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei killing her husband by hoping that he'll get drunk enough during a hunt that when a large beast passes by, it'll take him out and none of the kingsguard will be able to stop it in time.

Sybell Spicer making an arrangement to betray the Starks by hoping that Robb will have sex with her daughter and then feel guilty enough about it that he'll marry her (isn't it more likely that he'd marry her off to one of his bannermen?) Maybe there was some kind of love potion involved, but the app makes it sound like she was just sort of hoping it would happen.

That certainly makes sense because the plan seems to have been to create the entire scenario - Robb's injury, their offer to tend to him in the castle, the seduction, love potion, and subsequent pressure on him, etc. The Westerlings could only win from that plan. Sure, Jeyne would be pimped out to Robb, but Tywin would reward them if they did their best.

On 10/22/2021 at 5:56 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Arianne crowning a new queen and usurping the current king (and the Tyrells) by. . . just sort of proclaiming Myrcella queen? I never understood her plan.

That plan is quite clear. Arianne and Tyene want to provoke to Iron Throne to declare war on Dorne and Queen Myrcella by crowning Myrcella. Tommen's government would have to invade Dorne and bleed dry like they did back when they invaded last time.

And it is quite clear that they would have to do that. They could not allow Myrcella to remain a pretender alongside Tommen since. The risk that the people unhappy with 'King Tommen' would rise against the Iron Throne in the name of Queen Myrcella would have been way too high.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Agreed. F&B also compares the two, saying that whereas Alysanne was fearless, Daella was always afraid. 

For all of Alysanne’s virtues, she’s not perfect. She leaves Jaehaerys for not naming Rhaenys his heir, despite Rhaenys being next in line, but doesn’t seem to make the connection that she and Jaehaerys did the same thing to Rhaena thirty years earlier, and therefore helped set a precedent. And Viserra got a hell of a raw deal. It really did feel like she was being punished for being ambitious and beautiful (even if she never did anything that actually harmed anyone). At least Alysanne felt remorse for how she treated her afterwards. It’s just too bad Viserra wasn’t around to see it. . .

Rhaena was fine with Jaehaerys being king. At least publicly. The way the story is told she only starts to regret that she didn't press her own claim or Aerea's after she had to leave Fair Isle.

I mean, yes, Jaehaerys was proclaimed king before Rhaena left Maegor, but as soon as she heard what happened she flew to Storm's End with Dreamfyre and she handed Blackfyre to her little brother. She wanted him to wear the crown. And if she had wanted a share in the rule she could have demanded or insisted that Jaehaerys take her as a second wife. Their grandfather had done the same, after all. And uncle Maegor, too.

I kind of complained that incestuous polygamy never comes up for Jaehaerys I prior to the release of FaB ... but it becomes even more glaring that nobody at least suggests that possibility after Rhaena starts to become a nuisance. Yes, she has Androw as a husband, but he is a nobody and the marriage doesn't seem to have been consummated. And it would have been much easier to control Rhaena and her dragon if Jaehaerys had kept her in the Red Keep and Dreamfyre in the Dragonpit after she was widowed a third time. Giving her Harrenhal could have backfired. It didn't, but it could have.

But, in any case, there is no reason to think that Alysanne supporting Jaehaerys has to be seen as her creating a precedent against female inheritance. It is one thing to give up a claim/not press it and quite another to disinherit somebody or pass them over.

What's kind of weird, though, is that Alysanne never seems to see herself as Jaehaerys' heir. She is not just his wife, but his younger sister, the last child of King Aenys. Yes, they have Aerea as a presumptive heir, but if Jaehaerys I came before Rhaena and Aegon's daughter(s) shouldn't then Alysanne herself come before Aerea, too, with Rhaena and her daughter(s) only coming after both Jaehaerys and Alysanne?

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That certainly makes sense because the plan seems to have been to create the entire scenario - Robb's injury, their offer to tend to him in the castle, the seduction, love potion, and subsequent pressure on him, etc. The Westerlings could only win from that plan. Sure, Jeyne would be pimped out to Robb, but Tywin would reward them if they did their best.

If it's eventually confirmed that there was some kind of love potion involved, then this plot will make a lot more sense. I'm starting to think that George was being coy when he said that Jeyne would be in the TWOW Prologue -- I find it very likely that she will be the Prologue POV (which would actually be great, because we would finally be given a better look into her and Robb's marriage), and that she'll end up getting killed by Stoneheart.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That plan is quite clear. Arianne and Tyene want to provoke to Iron Throne to declare war on Dorne and Queen Myrcella by crowning Myrcella. Tommen's government would have to invade Dorne and bleed dry like they did back when they invaded last time.

And it is quite clear that they would have to do that. They could not allow Myrcella to remain a pretender alongside Tommen since. The risk that the people unhappy with 'King Tommen' would rise against the Iron Throne in the name of Queen Myrcella would have been way too high.

 Well, then it's a dumb plan (which I suppose is the point). Even if the other kingdoms failed to invade Dorne, there would still be the matter of actually sitting Myrcella on the Iron Throne. Once they leave Dorne, they're goners.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If it's eventually confirmed that there was some kind of love potion involved, then this plot will make a lot more sense. I'm starting to think that George was being coy when he said that Jeyne would be in the TWOW Prologue -- I find it very likely that she will be the Prologue POV (which would actually be great, because we would finally be given a better look into her and Robb's marriage), and that she'll end up getting killed by Stoneheart.

I'm not sure we need a love potion - just teenager hormones, basically. Robb is basically shamed into accepting Jeyne as his bride. We can assume that Sybell and her brother basically burst into the bedchamber while Robb was deflowering Jeyne.

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 Well, then it's a dumb plan (which I suppose is the point). Even if the other kingdoms failed to invade Dorne, there would still be the matter of actually sitting Myrcella on the Iron Throne. Once they leave Dorne, they're goners.

The plan didn't really seem to include sitting Myrcella on the Iron Throne. She would just be a pretender forcing the Iron Throne to attack Dorne and butchering them on Dornish soil rather than the Dornish being forced to fight outside Dorne - as they will have to do now or would have been forced to do if they had gone with the other plans the Sand Snakes put before Doran.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if she had wanted a share in the rule she could have demanded or insisted that Jaehaerys take her as a second wife.

Maybe she did, though Alysanne was against it, because Rhaena had already married with her brother - Aegon. It's not Alysanne's problem that Rhaena's brother-husband got killed. Rhaena, who had married with an older out of Targaryen-brothers, already had a chance to become the Queen, though the Gods decided otherwise. Alysanne was with Jaehaerys, so she has more right to be his wife, and considering that Rhaena was already not a virgin, it's likely that Jaehaerys also didn't wanted to marry her and in the span of their marriage to be compared with his older brother. Also he was aware that Alysanne married with him out of love, but Rhaena, if she did married with him, would have done it only out of greed and her desire to be the Queen.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, yes, Jaehaerys was proclaimed king before Rhaena left Maegor, but as soon as she heard what happened she flew to Storm's End with Dreamfyre and she handed Blackfyre to her little brother.

Rhaena did came to Jaehaerys and brought Blackfyre to him, though she did it too late. She could have went to Jaehaerys' side as soon as Aegon died, though instead she went elsewhere, and was staying away for 4 years. And when Maegor summoned her to marry with him, she went. Because despite everything, she wanted to become the Queen. And even though "Rhaena would later claim that she attempted to kill Maegor with a dagger hidden beneath her pillow during the wedding night.^[3]", she didn't actually tried to kill him, because he promised her that her daughter will become his heir.

"Immediately following the wedding, Maegor declared Rhaena's eldest daughter Aerea as his heir, until he had sons of his own, while disinheriting Rhaena's youngest brother Jaehaerys in the same decree. Rhaena's youngest daughter, Rhaella, was instead sent to Oldtown to be trained as a septa. Rhaena herself remained at King's Landing until 48 AC."

"Lord Edwell Celtigar, the Hand of the King, announced half a year after the wedding that Queen Jeyne was pregnant, and Queen Elinor's pregnancy was announced shortly afterwards. Maegor, joyful, showered both his wives with gifts and honors, and granted new lands and offices to their fathers, brothers, and uncles. Unfortunately, Jeyne's labor began three months early, and she gave birth to a stillborn child ... Elinor gave birth to a stillborn abomination said to have been born eyeless and with small wings.^[4] "

It seems that Rhaena went to Jaehaerys side after it became known that Maegor's two other wives are both pregnant, and thus as soon as those children would have been born, even if only one of them was a boy, it would have been the end of Aerea as Maegor's heir, and the end of Rhaena as the Queen Number One (she was a royalty and a Targaryen, so even though she was one of Maegor's three wives, before one of the other two would have given birth to a son, Rhaena would have had a higher standing in the court's hierarchy, but only until that child's birth. And considering that previously Elinor Costayne had three sons, it was likely that with Maegor she also would have had a son).

Rhaena married with Maegor in the spring of 47, both pregnancies of her rivals were announced six months after the wedding, and at least one of those pregnancies was fulltermed. Which means that Rhaena switched to Jaehaerys' side prior those children were born, so she didn't knew that they will be stillborn and malformed. So she finally went to Jaehaerys (4 years after Aegon's death) only because she thought that her days as Maegor's Queen and Aerea's days as his heir presumptive are numbered. And thus she switched sides not out of her loyalty or love to Jaehaerys, but out of greed and her desire to stay in power. 

Same with her first marriage. It appears that Rhaena was very egotistical and selfcentered person, and her siblings - Jaehaerys and Alysanne - were aware of it, and thus they wouldn't have agreed for Rhaena to become Jaehaerys' second wife.

Quote

F&B - "One notable name could be found neither amongst the dead nor the captive: Rhaena Targaryen, sister and wife to Prince Aegon, had not joined the host. Whether that was by his command or her own choice is still debated to this day. All that is known for certain is that Rhaena remained at Pinkmaiden Castle with her daughters when Aegon marched…and with her, Dreamfyre. Would the addition of a second dragon to the prince’s host have made a difference when battle was joined? We shall never know…though it has been pointed out, and rightly, that Princess Rhaena was no warrior, and Dreamfyre was younger and smaller than Quicksilver, and certainly no true threat to Balerion the Black Dread."

(Aegon's dragon - Quicksilver, was smaller and younger than Balerion, nevertheless Aegon didn't used the difference in their sizes as an excuse to not go into the battle against Maegor.)

When Aegon went into battle to fight against Maegor, Rhaena then stayed behind, not to risk her own life. And just made excuses not to go. Same as after going to Jaehaerys' side and betraying Maegor, she was claiming that she was intending to kill Maegor on their wedding night, even though that was not the truth. All lies and excuses. It appears that she didn't cared about her first husband too:

Quote

When word of the battle reached the west and Princess Rhaena learned that both her husband and her friend Lady Melony had fallen, it is said she heard the news in a stony silence. “Will you not weep?” she was asked, to which she replied, “I do not have the time for tears.”

Another excuse.

So even if Rhaena did wanted to marry with Jaehaeys and to become his second wife, it's likely that neither him nor Alysanne would have agreed to it. Which doesn't mean that this topic/possibility was never ever discussed between them.

[LindsayLohan]

I'll tell you what's ridiculous. Tyrion had multiple chances to take a drunk Sansa to pound town, had the only morally ethical sexual decision of his life, and didn't do it? When they were legally married?

C'mon, son!

[Jaenara Belarys]

Tyrion should've bedded a 12-13 year old Sansa when she was drunk? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure we need a love potion - just teenager hormones, basically. Robb is basically shamed into accepting Jeyne as his bride. We can assume that Sybell and her brother basically burst into the bedchamber while Robb was deflowering Jeyne.

Without a love potion, there's no reason for Robb not to marry Jeyne off to one of his bannerman instead (hell, he could have married her to Edmure). Even if Robb felt guilt for deflowering her, his advisors probably could have stopped him from going through with the marriage and talked him into something more rational.

[WhatAnArtist!]

7 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I'll tell you what's ridiculous. Tyrion had multiple chances to take a drunk Sansa to pound town, had the only morally ethical sexual decision of his life, and didn't do it? When they were legally married?

C'mon, son!

At this point in the series Tyrion still had a modicum of self-restraint and decency. He felt ashamed about what his family had done to Sansa's, and also was no doubt reminded of his other 13 year old wife that was raped - the trauma of that left a lasting impression on him, and I'm sure he didn't want to inflict it on another 13 year old wife of his.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Without a love potion, there's no reason for Robb not to marry Jeyne off to one of his bannerman instead (hell, he could have married her to Edmure). Even if Robb felt guilt for deflowering her, his advisors probably could have stopped him from going through with the marriage and talked him into something more rational.

Technically, yes. But that would imply we go with a scenario where the Westerlings gave Robb the time to consult with his advisers and bannermen. Instead, the way I imagine things is that Robb was an honored guest at the Crag, was given the lord's bedchamber for the night where he was cared for by Lady Sybell and, especially, Jeyne. Sybell and her brother would have been right outside the bedchamber when they had sex, and they would have barged in the act.

Robb would have been completely surprised, ashamed, and still very vulnerable from the news he had just received about the alleged deaths of Bran and Rickon. The Westerlings would have put pressure on Robb to marry Jeyne and he would have given in almost at once.

And once he made his promise to the Westerlings nothing his advisers and lords would tell him later could change his mind. He was a king, after all, not some boy lord they could push around.

If we assume Robb had time to think the whole thing through before making a decision, if we assume he first asked his lords for their opinion ... he would have never married Jeyne. So there is no chance that this happened.

[Kinola]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:56 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Arianne crowning a new queen and usurping the current king (and the Tyrells) by. . . just sort of proclaiming Myrcella queen? I never understood her plan.

So Arianne really couldn't wait until Myrcella got married to Trystane? 

On 10/21/2021 at 10:56 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei killing her husband by hoping that he'll get drunk enough during a hunt that when a large beast passes by, it'll take him out and none of the kingsguard will be able to stop it in time.

My guess is that Robert got drunk then injured on a couple hunts before, and that she hopes this time will do.

The things I consider unrealistic in Westeros? How the Ironborn seem to have a herd mentality. They never learn to read, don't do anything to build livelihoods outside of burning and pillaging and invading (some chose fishing, but that's beside the point), how eager they are to choose violence over everything else, how they'd rather keep to the Old Ways when it hasn't worked for so long....really, how have these people not wiped themselves out already?!

[WhatAnArtist!]

3 hours ago, Kinola said:

The things I consider unrealistic in Westeros? How the Ironborn seem to have a herd mentality. They never learn to read, don't do anything to build livelihoods outside of burning and pillaging and invading (some chose fishing, but that's beside the point), how eager they are to choose violence over everything else, how they'd rather keep to the Old Ways when it hasn't worked for so long....really, how have these people not wiped themselves out already?!

There are exceptions though. The most obvious one is Rodrik the Reader (one of my personal favourite characters in the series), who has contempt for the Old Ways and all he wants to do is sit in his tower and read history all day (very relatable), but there are others too. Asha argues for a more rational and cautious approach to acquiring land via diplomacy. There's also mention of some ironborn that have taken to "southron" customs, like hiring maesters and paying the gold price for things. The ironborn are indeed complete caricatures in the first few books, but Feast fleshes them out decently enough, while still staying true to the viking archtype.

They came pretty close to "wiping themselves out" during the Greyjoy's Rebellion, but fortunately for them Ned and Robert were merciful rulers that were willing to give them a chance to moderate themselves. If it was Aerys and Tywin they were defeated by, I'm certain that they would have been exterminated.