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The tragedy of the targaryens


Daenerysthegreat

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1) A glorious girl, alone in a wide green sea, reflects on her past, her siblings, her parents and how her innocence was stolen. Years ago, her eldest brother had been born in an accident that had killed most of their family. Their parents, who were brother and sister, had survived the tragedy. The glorious girl's family had ruled a beautiful realm for centuries, having strong and magical creatures called dragons. 

2) The dragons had died a century ago but their family had still ruled their realm. The father had a best friend, the proud lord. The proud Lord ruled the realm for many years. The father rarely concerned himself with the matters of governance, he was more concerned with his harlots. His children with the mother were many but they all died except for the eldest son. 

3) The father and the mother had another son, he seemed healthy, but he also died a few months later. After some while the father was captured by a rebellious Lord. The rebellious Lord and his wife had the father insulted and imprisoned. The proud Lord was willing to abandon the father to death but the father was rescued by the white knight. 

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They have had their ups and downs.  It is tragic because the kingdom was united under the Targaryens before Aerys lost control.  But perhaps a whole kingdom is not enough to fight the White Walkers.  What they built needed to be torn down before something new can be made.  The king, queen, and elder brothers  had to go in order for the way to open for Daenerys.  

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I always felt for Viserys. The guy was a total dick and deserved what happened to him, but... I can empathize with the circumstances that made him how he was and how pride was all he had. It's a sad story because he could've been so much more if he had just been more humble and put in the work. I always wondered how he might have turned out if he had a strong role model, such as if Barristan remained loyal.

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4) The mother and the father have another son, the second brother. On the occasion of his birth, the proud Lord asks the hand of the eldest son for his haughty daughter. The proud Lord is firmly refused. The eldest son marries a kind and beautiful woman, she becomes as close as family to his mother and brother. The sister and the eldest brother have two children, the niece and the nephew. 

5) The father starts sinking further into madness. He starts raping and beating the mother. The eldest son sees this and plans a tourney so that he can decide what to do with his father. However the Father's new advisor, the spider warns him of this and the father arrives for the tourney. 

6) The eldest son wins the tourney and crowns a bannerman's daughter as queen of love and beauty. The sister is insulted, her husband who till then had been nothing but kind to her, had just publicly shamed her in front of everyone. The eldest son then runs away with the bannerman's daughter

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always felt for Viserys. The guy was a total dick and deserved what happened to him, but... I can empathize with the circumstances that made him how he was and how pride was all he had. It's a sad story because he could've been so much more if he had just been more humble and put in the work. I always wondered how he might have turned out if he had a strong role model, such as if Barristan remained loyal.

Agreed. I'm somewhat glad that Dany takes a more sympathetic and nuanced view of him over time. Viserys lived a sad life, filled with constant fear, never being able to trust anyone, practically homeless, always having to run away further and further from their homeland, and having to sell every possession they had just to survive. From a psychological perspective, his personality as we see it in Thrones makes complete sense, and it would have taken a man of extremely strong moral fortitude to not give in to anger and paranoia like he did. You're right that if he had a loyal and honourable companion with them, like a member of the Kingsguard, it very likely could have kept in check some of his worst impulses. One must remember that Viserys was only fourteen years old when Willem Darry died and he and Daenerys were left completely on their own. Putting that amount of stress on a fourteen year old boy is very harsh, no matter who they are.

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3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Agreed. I'm somewhat glad that Dany takes a more sympathetic and nuanced view of him over time. Viserys lived a sad life, filled with constant fear, never being able to trust anyone, practically homeless, always having to run away further and further from their homeland, and having to sell every possession they had just to survive. From a psychological perspective, his personality as we see it in Thrones makes complete sense, and it would have taken a man of extremely strong moral fortitude to not give in to anger and paranoia like he did. You're right that if he had a loyal and honourable companion with them, like a member of the Kingsguard, it very likely could have kept in check some of his worst impulses. One must remember that Viserys was only fourteen years old when Willem Darry died and he and Daenerys were left completely on their own. Putting that amount of stress on a fourteen year old boy is very harsh, no matter who they are.

Unfortunately, and typically, she feels immense guilt over his death (which was in no way her fault). When he calls her “murderer, betrayer, whore” in her fever dream, that what her sub-conscious is telling her she is.

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26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Unfortunately, and typically, she feels immense guilt over his death (which was in no way her fault). When he calls her “murderer, betrayer, whore” in her fever dream, that what her sub-conscious is telling her she is.

sure. Dany and Viserys's relationship was extremely toxic and abnormal at any level and each of them was hurt and traumatized in a different way.

Viserys was broken under the pressure  of being the last surviving male heir of his dynasty, losing his whole family and home and taking care of a little sister who in his mind had killed their mother to be born. if you compare their relationship with that of Cersei and Tyrion , Viserys seems like an angel. even according to Dany he wasn't always the horrible brother we see in aGoT which makes me often furious at people like Barristan and even Doran who had the chance to help these kids.

on the other hand, as Viserys grew worse he himself became more of the reason to mess Dany up. she also was lost and she had lost her ser Willem too and worse than that she was literally losing her brother too though he was physically alive . we saw that in the chapter that Viserys dies and she calls him the man who used to be her brother and he filled her with a huge amount of self doubt which is explicit in all of her chapters and her guilt in her last chapter. moreover , now that Viserys is gone she seems under the pressure to take their home back both because of herself finally finding home and because they were wronged. that makes one worried about this character should she loses the people who keep her on the right path.

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3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 which makes me often furious at people like Barristan and even Doran who had the chance to help these kids.

 

The perception of Barristan as the living embodiment of loyalty and duty always irked me. He had zero problem taking a job with Robert after the Rebellion even knowing the Targaryen kids were still alive. Only after he was dismissed in disgrace did he decide to seek out Daenerys. If not for that I get the impression he'd have been very loyal to Joffrey.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Only after he was dismissed in disgrace did he decide to seek out Daenerys. If not for that I get the impression he'd have been very loyal to Joffrey.

He admits as much to Dany near the end of Storm. Barristan himself makes no claims to selfless loyalty. He's fairly upfront about his failings and hypocrisy. His service to Dany is more a form of personal redemption than a display of his undying loyalty. 

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2 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

He admits as much to Dany near the end of Storm. Barristan himself makes no claims to selfless loyalty. He's fairly upfront about his failings and hypocrisy. His service to Dany is more a form of personal redemption than a display of his undying loyalty. 

I'll have to reread that, it's been awhile. I just recall his POV being super critical of Jaime when he essentially jumped ship as well. 

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The plot calls for an unstable Westeros when the winter finally hits.  Everything that held the quarrelsome families in check were removed in order to bring in chaos.  Other than that, yes, the Targaryens experienced a lot of pain and sorrow.  The dance was the worst, in my opinion.  

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'll have to reread that, it's been awhile. I just recall his POV being super critical of Jaime when he essentially jumped ship as well. 

He's critical of the whole kingslaying bit. Like everyone with a bit of decency anyway.

 

8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

which makes me often furious at people like Barristan and even Doran who had the chance to help these kids.

Barristan had no chance of helping them and while Doran might have, the risk of Robert finding out and killing them all in retaliation was far too great.

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36 minutes ago, frenin said:

He's critical of the whole kingslaying bit. Like everyone with a bit of decency anyway.

I guess the moral thing to do would've to let Aerys... burn them all? Heck, Jaime was the only one with the... decency... to think raping the queen is ya know... bad. I never got the stigma for killing Mad King. Especially from people who either turncloaked too or openly rebelled against him. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I guess the moral thing to do would've to let Aerys... burn them all?

Jaime didn't bother to tell anyone about that tiny detail. So you can hardly blame people for not reading minds.

 

Quote

Jaime was the only one with the... decency... to think raping the queen is ya know... bad. 

They all thought about it, no one did nothing.

I'll excuse Jaime here tho, He was fifteen, it wasn't his job to step up.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I never got the stigma for killing Mad King

Seriously??

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Especially from people who either turncloaked too or openly rebelled against him. 

The same reason why people sanction soldiers but despise and revile terrorists.

One is the acceptable course of action, the other not so much.

The rebels took the field and defeated Aerys and his forces in fair battle. Jaime broke one of the two vows you can't really break in Westeros, the other being deserting the Watch. And as far as anyone could tell, he simply jumped ship. 

Btw, people don't really think that the Sack of King's Landing was Tywin's greatest moment, even without the infanticide.

I mean, one can play the moral relativism card if they really want but... It's not the same.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Jaime didn't bother to tell anyone about that tiny detail. So you can hardly blame people for not reading minds.

 

They all thought about it, no one did nothing.

I'll excuse Jaime here tho, He was fifteen, it wasn't his job to step up.

 

 

Seriously??

 

The same reason why people sanction soldiers but despise and revile terrorists.

One is the acceptable course of action, the other not so much.

The rebels took the field and defeated Aerys and his forces in fair battle. Jaime broke one of the two vows you can't really break in Westeros, the other being deserting the Watch. And as far as anyone could tell, he simply jumped ship. 

Btw, people don't really think that the Sack of King's Landing was Tywin's greatest moment, even without the infanticide.

I mean, one can play the moral relativism card if they really want but... It's not the same.

The detail of Jaime not telling anyone... is also why I kind of thing the Kingslayer plot just feels... forced for the sake of the reader thinking of him as a villain. Telling Ned to piss off might make sense, but at some point he should tell Robert, Tywin, Cersei, someone. That's just how people work. 

Jaime wanted to stop Aerys, but the other members of the Kingsguard stopped him. I do find it odd that you excuse his age for not stepping up. If Jaime had broken in and killed Aerys then would that have been better to you?

Yes, seriously. Even Robert said it, someone had to kill him. Even if you don't factor in the wildfire plot, I'm not going to believe that killing a man who enjoys burning people alive so much it sexually arouses to the point he just has to rape someone is a bad thing. Nevermind everything else he did. There's no shades of gray here. Aerys had to go. 

Odd modern examples. I can think of as many examples of freedom fighters as opposed to terrorists. But what is a freedom fighter but a terrorist we like? Just like soldiers "following orders" have committed some of the largest atrocities in history. That doesn't mean they're noble and honorable because they obey without question. I think some of the scummiest people in history were "just following orders." 

As for Tywin sacking King's Landing? That really doesn't have much to do with the conversation about Jaime other than perhaps it being unreasonable for Aerys to expect Jaime to kill him. A great moment? Not really. His justification of having to be utterly brutal to overcompensate for joining in late doesn't quite add up. I think it was more Tywin is going to be Tywin, and he always landed on his feet(until he was on the privy).

So if it's just breaking the oath... well.. then everyone of the rebel lords broke their oaths to the Mad King. But that's not a problem. It just feels extremely arbitrary that this is wrong for Jaime but ok for Barristan and everyone else. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

To me there is nothing tragic about the lives of Aerys' children. The only tragic characters were Rhaella, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon who died because of their family's crimes.

I'm not a fan of Viserys, but you do have to admit he got a bad deal (going from pampered prince to to being in hiding, but living relatively comfortable, and then a beggar with a royal lineage). And I suppose you could say it's tragic that a little Dany has known practically nothing else. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Seriously??

 

He's a mad king, not well liked, who enjoys burning people alive with wildfire and even Robert admits that someone had to kill Aerys. 

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5 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

The detail of Jaime not telling anyone... is also why I kind of thing the Kingslayer plot just feels... forced for the sake of the reader thinking of him as a villain. Telling Ned to piss off might make sense, but at some point he should tell Robert, Tywin, Cersei, someone. That's just how people work. 

Jaime is arrogant as hell. He felt hurt that people didn't kiss his ass for literally backstabbing an old deranged unarmed man and pouted for fifteen years.

I'd also argue that given that Jaime was supposed to be a black and white villain, being him the one who killed and usurped Robert, the wildfire plot is something added later specifically created for the writer to have some sympathy for a person that till then had done little to earn anything but the reader's hatred. Not vice versa.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jaime wanted to stop Aerys, but the other members of the Kingsguard stopped him. I do find it odd that you excuse his age for not stepping up. If Jaime had broken in and killed Aerys then would that have been better to you?

Jaime made a comment about it, not much.

I would have viewed just the same, I simply think that the seniors members of the order should be the ones under pressure of not enabling a deranged man any further.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Yes, seriously. Even Robert said it, someone had to kill him. Even if you don't factor in the wildfire plot, I'm not going to believe that killing a man who enjoys burning people alive so much it sexually arouses to the point he just has to rape someone is a bad thing. Nevermind everything else he did. There's no shades of gray here. Aerys had to go.

And Ned points out the obvious. Someone had to, and someone was going to anyway, Jaime however wasn't that someone.

Aerys was a dead man walking by that point, the war was lost to him since the Trident and Tywin was speeding things up. There were tons of rebels who had grievances with the man. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Odd modern examples. I can think of as many examples of freedom fighters as opposed to terrorists. But what is a freedom fighter but a terrorist we like? Just like soldiers "following orders" have committed some of the largest atrocities in history. That doesn't mean they're noble and honorable because they obey without question. I think some of the scummiest people in history were "just following orders." 

Modern?? Sure. Odd?? Not so much.

Anyway, I can think of terrorists sponsored and whitewashed by this or that government. Even then, you're already making an important difference by calling one terrorist and the other freedom fighters. The latter tend to be associated with soldiers by the general public. 

To the strawman of the Nuremberg defense... Well, the point was not that they obey without question, so do terrorists anyway. The point is that all things equal and in a neutral context, the concept of soldier is going to provoke a more favorable opinion than that of a terrorist. Which is why terrorists try to imitate the military and call themselves warriors and so on and so forth.

If this comparison wasn't clear or seemed a bit off... Let's try with another.

Why do you think the Lannisters and the Tyrells keep the charade of the Baratheon kids alive?? Providing the children weren't incestuous?? What's the matter if they are bastards?? Robert usurped the throne and now he's usurped instead... So why would the support of the children vanish if the truth was openly acknowledged? 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

So if it's just breaking the oath... well.. then everyone of the rebel lords broke their oaths to the Mad King. But that's not a problem. It just feels extremely arbitrary that this is wrong for Jaime but ok for Barristan and everyone else. 

None of the rebels were Kingsguard. Whose vows are obviously held on a higher standard than most, Aerys aggravated the rebels, he didn't do that with Jaime.

Barristan didn't kill his King, why should he feel sorry for?? 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He's a mad king, not well liked, who enjoys burning people alive with wildfire and even Robert admits that someone had to kill Aerys. 

Not Jaime.

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5 hours ago, frenin said:

Barristan had no chance of helping them and while Doran might have, the risk of Robert finding out and killing them all in retaliation was far too great.

look, it is by all means logical for Barristan and Doran not to help Targeryen kids , especially Doran who had a kingdom to protect and a family to think of. But the reason their.. neglect.. in this issue makes me somewhat furious lies in different things. 

Doran had a plan to use Viserys's name in order to take a revenge and restore his family's lost power in court by making his daughter queen . at the very least he could make sure that this little boy who had lost everyone of his friends and family grows up to become a competent king by perhaps sending out someone to him and his sister (maybe a supposed exiled lord or his wife who wanted to move to Norvos anyways) , instead as far as we know he did nothing and the boy who he had invested so much in became a paranoid idiot begger king who got himself killed way too soon.

on the other hand, Barristan seem to care about his honor above all else , even his own life. yet, he chose the easier path, the path that literally didn't need any effort. he had the chance to run away in the chaos when the new government was forming. he had a chance every night that people slept to leave. he could run away when Joffrey had sent people to kill him so surely he could leave when no one doubted him much. the problem with Barristan's decision is that he is a bit hypocrite in his high values while he himself chose something that best suited him rather than what honor demanded of him. this would have been different if Robert had crowned Aegon and set himself as his regent , it would have even been different if rebels had held a council to disinherit Viserys , Deanerys  , Raella and Rhaegar's children . after all Robert used his Targ lineage as much as his right in conquest to sit the throne . but none of these happened which made him from a rebel fighting a crazy king and a rapist prince to a usurper. that is why according to everything Barristan stands for , working for Robert the usurper who in Barristan's mind killed his favorite prince to become king was wrong.

 

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Barristan had been a man of loyalty to the purpose of the Kingsguard.  His dismissal by the Lannisters opened his eyes and adjusted his personal philosophy of where his loyalties could now be.  It is also of importance to know that his dismissal released him from previous oaths and loyalties to the Kingsguard.  To put simply, his release allowed him to open his mind to do some really deep thinking.  Like for example, he is now free to help the heir to Westeros, the daughter of Aerys.  A man bound to the Kingsguard is not free to entertain such thoughts.  But a man who is no longer bound by his duty to the Kingsguard is free to decide whom he wished to serve.  

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