The tragedy of the targaryens

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

The detail of Jaime not telling anyone... is also why I kind of thing the Kingslayer plot just feels... forced for the sake of the reader thinking of him as a villain. Telling Ned to piss off might make sense, but at some point he should tell Robert, Tywin, Cersei, someone. That's just how people work. 

I don't think it's forced ... maybe just a little but Martin had.. what?.. 3 years to change the-very-evil-Jaimie in his first draft to just-one-king-slayer-Jaimie in book one.

and no one ever asked Jaimie why he killed the mad king... every thing seemed obvious .. for Tywin it was convenience that his son is on his side. for Robert , Ned and the rest it seemed a part of Lannister's joining the rebellion .

[Daenerysthegreat]

7) The father's cousin, the bannerman's daughter's fiance rebels against the father. He is joined by his pet dogs. The father sends the eldest brother's best friend to kill the cousin, but the best friend fails. The best friend is exiled for this by the father. 

8) The eldest brother then comes and faves the cousin in the battle along with the white knight. Sadly, the cousin kills the eldest brother.The father sends the mother and the second brother away.The proud Lord, out of the war till that moment arrives at the palace with an army. 

9) The father let's the proud Lord in, but the proud Lord betrays the father . The father tries to kill them all, in fear of what will happen should their enemies get their hands on them but the father is killed by the proud Lord's son, the Kingslayer. 

10) The niece goes to the eldest brother's room and hides under his bed, confident that she will be safe there, however she is found and murdered by the short wicked man. The sister and the nephew are murdered by a monster. The monster smashes the nephew against the wall and rapes and murders the sister. 

11) The mother is now finally free of her husband but she has lost her eldest son, daughter and grandchildren. She dies in childbirth giving birth to the glorious girl, the second brother is now the head of the family, his mother is dead and his sister just a baby. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

On the issue of the Jaime/Aerys debate, I think people need to remember that 99.9% of Westeros had no idea about just how bad King Aerys was, and they didn't know why Jaime killed him. They had no idea about Aerys raping and abusing his wife, or exactly how he killed Brandon and Rickard Stark, or his intention to burn down King's Landing, or his order for Jaime to murder his own father (Westeros hates kinslayers just as much as kingslayers, remember). As far as most people are concerned, Jaime Lannister betrayed and murdered his king, who was a defenseless and frail man, because he was opportunistically helping his father and the rebels take the city. That's the completely logical assumption that people would make, since Jaime himself arrogantly refuses to explain anything about the situation (though I agree with people that say this feels too contrived by Martin). People can't project their own exclusive knowledge gained by Jaime's PoV onto everyone else. They don't have the information that we do.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Doran had a plan to use Viserys's name in order to take a revenge and restore his family's lost power in court by making his daughter queen . at the very least he could make sure that this little boy who had lost everyone of his friends and family grows up to become a competent king by perhaps sending out someone to him and his sister (maybe a supposed exiled lord or his wife who wanted to move to Norvos anyways) , instead as far as we know he did nothing and the boy who he had invested so much in became a paranoid idiot begger king who got himself killed way too soon.

Doran could have done that, being discovered and all could have ended dead.

 

 

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

he had the chance to run away in the chaos when the new government was forming. he had a chance every night that people slept to leave.

And why would he do that??

Barristan is sworn to protect the King on the Iron Throne. None of the Targlings was.

Loyalist ties might have demanded Barristan to leave, Honor however was unconcerned on the matter.

And Barristan served faithfully to the Targs after all their... misbehaviour. So, it's perfectly normal that he does the same, it's the only thing he does.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Doran could have done that, being discovered and all could have ended dead.

yes but the point is he wanted fire and blood as well as power... is it too much to ask of him to do something other than writing some marriage contract?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And why would he do that??

Barristan is sworn to protect the King on the Iron Throne. None of the Targlings was.

Loyalist ties might have demanded Barristan to leave, Honor however was unconcerned on the matter.

And Barristan served faithfully to the Targs after all their... misbehaviour. So, it's perfectly normal that he does the same, it's the only thing he does.

no honor would have told him that the way Robert took IT was not honorable and thus he was no true king. I explained how Robert crowning himself could have been honorable. but again the point here is how highly Barristan puts his honor so that's what is wrong with him staying with Robert. but I did say that Barristan's choice was acceptable

[frenin]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

yes but the point is he wanted fire and blood as well as power... is it too much to ask of him to do something other than writing some marriage contract?

If it may endanger further his and his subjects's lives?? Yeah.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

no honor would have told him that the way Robert took IT was not honorable and thus he was no true king. 

He actually sanctioned Robert's actions, since he won "honourably" in the field and places the blame of King's Landing on the Lannisters.

Honor is actually an incredible subjective matter anyway. Aerys's Kingsguard are judged by all as the paragon of honor at the end of the day.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

but again the point here is how highly Barristan puts his honor so that's what is wrong with him staying with Robert.

There's no hypocrisy here tho.

 

[EggBlue]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

If it may endanger further his and his subjects's lives?? Yeah.

but he wants a winning hand so he needed to take some risks... honestly, let's say Viserys and Dorne did take the IT .. still, would the Viserys we knew be the thing Doran needed? ... a terrible husband for his daughter and a useless king for the realm? how could that Viserys satisfy Dorne's desires? how could he keep his crown considering Dorne's small army? ... Doran should have worked harder for his agenda...

Quote

He actually sanctioned Robert's actions, since he won "honourably" in the field and places the blame of King's Landing on the Lannisters.

Honor is actually an incredible subjective matter anyway. Aerys's Kingsguard are judged by all as the paragon of honor at the end of the day.

even Barristan himself think that wasn't the honorable thing to do after he is set aside.

the thing about honor ( whether in the story or in reality) is that it's a loose concept. there is no one way to define it and it's circumstantial .. so I doubt you and I can reach any sort of agreement on this 

[WhatAnArtist!]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

still, would Viserys be the thing Doran needed? ... a terrible husband for his daughter and a useless king for the realm?

We don't know that Viserys would be like that as a king. He only became like we see him in Thrones because he'd spent over a decade on the run on another continent, poor and homeless, hunted by murderers. If that had never happened, he might have been a normal and respectable man and king.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I pity King Viserys III. He was not a bad person. Unfortunately deserving or not had nothing to do with it. He broke Dothraki laws. He didn’t take the time to learn their laws. It is this fault which would have kept him from building an empire. He doesn’t take the effort to learn about other cultures and customs. He was a close minded Westeros nobleman through and through. It makes you appreciate Jorah for learning Dothraki. 

[EggBlue]

27 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

We don't know that Viserys would be like that as a king. He only became like we see him in Thrones because he'd spent over a decade on the run on another continent, poor and homeless, hunted by murderers. If that had never happened, he might have been a normal and respectable man and king.

I was saying that if Doran had helped him in someway Viserys would have turned out fine. but Doran neglected him and therefore the Viserys we saw wasn't any good to Doran's plans. so I argued that if Doran wanted his plan to work at the end of the day, he should have taken the risk and aided Targlings

[frenin]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

but he wants a winning hand so he needed to take some risks...

Which he did, by arranging the betrothal. Doran Martell is famously cautious.

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

how could that Viserys satisfy Dorne's desires? how could he keep his crown considering Dorne's small army? ... Doran should have worked harder for his agenda...

He's a man blinded by revenge. So long Viserys actually served that purpose...

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

even Barristan himself think that wasn't the honorable thing to do after he is set aside.

Well yeah, that's what he tells an angry Dany who wants to boot him ...

[Daenerysthegreat]

12) The glorious girl and the second brother are raised by the eldest brother's former teacher. However the teacher dies and the servants throw them out of the house. The second brother, a child himself is now in charge of both of them. 

13) The second brother finds many patrons, and the two stay with them for a while but the patrons throw them out eventually. The second brother has to beg for food on the streets. The last straw is selling the mother's crown. This turns the second brother there into an angry person and he starts beating the glorious girl. 

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Which he did, by arranging the betrothal. Doran Martell is famously cautious.

 

He's a man blinded by revenge. So long Viserys actually served that purpose...

 

 

Well yeah, that's what he tells an angry Dany who wants to boot him ...

I find Doran's behaviour hard to fathom.  He keeps his daughter and heir out of the loop.  For sure, he doubts her discretion, but he could die at any moment, and how would she pick up his plans if she knows nothing about them, added to which, he's kept her out of learning to rule. 

And, yes, overt support for Dany and Viserys would be dangerous, but channelling funds through agents should not have been difficult to arrange.

[frenin]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I find Doran's behaviour hard to fathom.  He keeps his daughter and heir out of the loop.  For sure, he doubts her discretion, but he could die at any moment, and how would she pick up his plans if she knows nothing about them, added to which, he's kept her out of learning to rule. 

And, yes, overt support for Dany and Viserys would be dangerous, but channelling funds through agents should not have been difficult to arrange.

I'd say that he doesn't really expect to die anytime soon?? Maybe he has a letter or something in his will?? It's not like that part is really developed anyway.

 

I mean they were picked up by Mopatis after that. Not that everyone laughing at Viserys's faces and dismissing his invasion plans would have changed anyway.