House Hightower and Rickard Stark’s Southron Ambitions

[StarksInTheNorth]

The Southron Ambitions theory generally states that Rickard Stark had “Southron Ambitions” that led to him alliance-seeking across Westeros with the Tullys, Arryns, and (eventually) Baratheons.

Barbrey Dustin, in a conversation with Theon, gave a name to the theory. She also gave a related theory I see less frequently discussed: that Maester Walys planted the idea in Rickard’s head at the behest of the Hightowers and his secret father. A separate theory states that Walys was the bastard son of Archmaester Walgrave, his secret father.

Here’s my question, though. If we assume Barbrey is right and that Walys planted the idea, what benefit does Southron Ambitions serve the Hightowers or the Citadel?

I can maybe see it leading towards the removal of House Targaryen, if one believes the great citadel/maester conspiracy. But there’s no proposed alliances with the Reach and I believe the Hightowers stayed loyal to Aerys during the Rebellion. Maybe a later plan included trying to marry Eddard to a lesser Hightower or Tyrell girl, but beyond that I just can’t see what they get out of it. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Here’s my question, though. If we assume Barbrey is right and that Walys planted the idea, what benefit does Southron Ambitions serve the Hightowers or the Citadel?

 

The Targaryens have magical, Valyrian blood and the son is obsessed with prophecies. Plus, we know that they don't like magic. Besides that, IDK. 

[Rondo]

House Hightower already had a man on the inside.  Ser Gerold.  The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard could easily slaughter the royal family.  Manipulating Rickard and all of the other fathers into this alliance seems rather complicated and very dangerous.  The more who know, the greater the chances of a leak.  It would have meant the destruction of all of them.  Why do that when they can just ask Ser Gerold do assassinate the royal family.  Grand Maester Pycelle had many chances to poison the entire royal family.  The Hightower being involved doesn't make sense.  There are high ranking maesters who were involved though.  Rickard, Robert, Brandon, and Hoster were playing the game against Aerys and his retainers.  

I don't think the Hightowers had it out for the Targaryens.  Ser Gerold was a good loyal man to Aerys Targaryen.  If the Hightowers had any plans, it is not to put Robert on the throne.  That does not do them any good.  Especially if a girl who worships the Old Gods is the queen.  

One reason is slightly possible.  Leyton is aware of the Azor Ahai legend.  He needed to push Aerys, Rhaegar, and Viserys out of power in order for Princess Daenerys to be reborn in a particular place, time, and circumstances.  She must be reborn on the Dothraki Sea and sacrifice her husband to become Azor Ahai and bring the dragons back.  The old powers are waking.  It is a time for gods and heroes.  

[Egged]

4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

The Southron Ambitions theory generally states that Rickard Stark had “Southron Ambitions” that led to him alliance-seeking across Westeros with the Tullys, Arryns, and (eventually) Baratheons.

Barbrey Dustin, in a conversation with Theon, gave a name to the theory. She also gave a related theory I see less frequently discussed: that Maester Walys planted the idea in Rickard’s head at the behest of the Hightowers and his secret father. A separate theory states that Walys was the bastard son of Archmaester Walgrave, his secret father.

Here’s my question, though. If we assume Barbrey is right and that Walys planted the idea, what benefit does Southron Ambitions serve the Hightowers or the Citadel?

I can maybe see it leading towards the removal of House Targaryen, if one believes the great citadel/maester conspiracy. But there’s no proposed alliances with the Reach and I believe the Hightowers stayed loyal to Aerys during the Rebellion. Maybe a later plan included trying to marry Eddard to a lesser Hightower or Tyrell girl, but beyond that I just can’t see what they get out of it. 

There is a book named "The Death of Dragons", AKA "Blood and Fire", which are the reverse words of House Targaryen. I feel this book likely holds the clues to a plot to wipe out the Targaryens.

Quote

“If I tell you, they may need to kill you too.” Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. “Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”

In Walys' box there was a bag of silver stags.

Quote

Inside, Pate had found a bag of silver stags, a lock of yellow hair tied up in a ribbon, a painted miniature of a woman who resembled Walgrave (even to her mustache), and a knight’s gauntlet made of lobstered steel. The gauntlet had belonged to a prince, Walgrave claimed, though he could no longer seem to recall which one. When Pate shook it, the key fell out onto the floor.

And:

Quote

“At the dawn of Robert’s Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark’s head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

I feel these are related clues.

Walys just disappeared suddenly in the rebelion, and Luwin assisted Catelyn with the birth of every one of her children. Something's up.

[StarksInTheNorth]

2 minutes ago, Egged said:

There is a book named "The Death of Dragons", AKA "Blood and Fire", which are the reverse words of House Targaryen. I feel this book likely holds the clues to a plot to wipe out the Targaryens.

Agreed. I still don’t get how the Southron ambitions plot helps the Hightowers or citadel, though, since Rickard/hoster/Jon Arryn/robert Baratheon are mostly unconnected to the citadel and I don’t recall any interest in the Maester?

so @Rondois your opinion that Barbrey is just reaching, then?

[Egged]

4 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Agreed. I still don’t get how the Southron ambitions plot helps the Hightowers or citadel, though, since Rickard/hoster/Jon Arryn/robert Baratheon are mostly unconnected to the citadel and I don’t recall any interest in the Maester?

I updated my post.

I am pretty sure the Hightowers are like the Medici, they probably fund the Citadel, and as such have access to all the top knowledge they keep hidden, especially about magic.

I suspect some members of the Daynes are secretly part of the Church of Starry Wisdom, and the sept in Oldtown is the Starry Sept. So there is probably some Illuminati-like bunch behind the scene.

Edit: The Starks would not have known the real intentions, maybe even Walys didn't.

[StarksInTheNorth]

15 minutes ago, Egged said:

I suspect some members of the Daynes are secretly part of the Church of Starry Wisdom, and the sept in Oldtown is the Starry Sept. So there is probably some Illuminati-like bunch behind the scene.

Edit: The Starks would not have known the real intentions, maybe even Walys didn't.

Every day I think I understand the minutiae of ASOIAF and every day someone in these forums mentions some potentially relevant detail from TWOIAF that I have to look up because I haven’t thought about it since I read the book aka the starry wisdom reference through me for a LOOP here. 

Anyway, I’m generally not a fan of Illuminati esque theories in Westeros but this connection does raise a lot of alarm bells. And unlike most secret conspiracies you’ve connected it to the one I undoubtedly believed in (maester conspiracy). Still no clue how it all ties to barbrey’s observation, but definitely worth pondering. Thanks for sharing. 

[Rondo]

19 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Agreed. I still don’t get how the Southron ambitions plot helps the Hightowers or citadel, though, since Rickard/hoster/Jon Arryn/robert Baratheon are mostly unconnected to the citadel and I don’t recall any interest in the Maester?

so @Rondois your opinion that Barbrey is just reaching, then?

Barbrey is one of the lucid ones.  She knows enough but perhaps came to the wrong conclusions.  A marriage between Brandon and Catelyn is provocative enough.  Pair that with a marriage of Robert and Lyanna and it begins to make Rickard Stark appear a power hungry lord who wants to compete with his king.  What if the maester had nothing to do with it.  Rickard, Hoster, and Robert just had a notion to take power for themselves. 

The Hightowers had nothing to gain from having Robert on the throne.  I don't think they want a queen who worships the Old Gods.  I'm not saying the maesters didn't have their own schemes but it is not necessarily the same that put Robert on the throne.  

[Egged]

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

Barbrey is one of the lucid ones.  She knows enough but perhaps came to the wrong conclusions.  A marriage between Brandon and Catelyn is provocative enough.  Pair that with a marriage of Robert and Lyanna and it begins to make Rickard Stark appear a power hungry lord who wants to compete with his king.  What if the maester had nothing to do with it.  Rickard, Hoster, and Robert just had a notion to take power for themselves. 

The Hightowers had nothing to gain from having Robert on the throne.  I don't think they want a queen who worships the Old Gods.  I'm not saying the maesters didn't have their own schemes but it is not necessarily the same that put Robert on the throne.  

They had something to gain from taking out the Targaryens. Robert was the hammer. The maesters the anvil.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Removing the Targaryens didn’t improve the lives of the Hightowers. They’re still subordinate to the Tyrells. If it’s a matter of religion, why was it that they didn’t force the IB and the North to convert?  
 

The people behind the plot are the rogue archmaesters. Richard and Robert were not mere pawns though. They knew what it meant politically.