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Is Jon really who people think he is?


Falcon2909

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If Jon Snow is truly Rhaegar's bastard son, then why doesn't he have dragon dreams, dreams about fire or flying? He only dreams about winterfell, weirwoods and the crypts and warging. Plus, he doesn't have a single physical targaryen feature. 

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10 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

If Jon Snow is truly Rhaegar's bastard son, then why doesn't he have dragon dreams, dreams about fire or flying?

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

- Jon VIII, ADWD

"Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

- Jon XII, ADWD
 

The first one he was full awake, the second one asleep and it was plainly not a wolf dream.

These are the only two instances to my knowledge that can be attributed to "dragon dreams"

 

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11 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

If Jon Snow is truly Rhaegar's bastard son, then why doesn't he have dragon dreams, dreams about fire or flying? He only dreams about winterfell, weirwoods and the crypts and warging. Plus, he doesn't have a single physical targaryen feature. 

as @rotting sea cow said ,Jon has some dreams that could be counted as dragon dreams. but even if he didn't that wouldn't mean anything. there had been Targs with no Targ feature or dreaming abilities. and anyway whoever Jon's dad might be the important person in his arc is his mother, hence the crypts. unless of course I'm wrong and his dad Brandon Stark is giving him crypt dreams to tell jon that he could be winterfell heir if he had married Ashara!!!:D 

there is one more thing to keep in mind and that's -as it seems- these magical abilities can be enhanced by being near magical elements/places and/or being aware of them. for instance , Dany's dreams seem to be more whenever she holds an egg or Bran whose abilities improve when he is with his wolf or near the weirwood or after he gains some knowledge  into what he'll be able to do after meeting Reeds.

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9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

there is one more thing to keep in mind and that's -as it seems- these magical abilities can be enhanced by being near magical elements/places and/or being aware of them. for instance , Dany's dreams seem to be more whenever she holds an egg or Bran whose abilities improve when he is with his wolf or near the weirwood or after he gains some knowledge  into what he'll be able to do after meeting Reeds.

This a very good point.  The Wall is one of the (magical) hinges of the world and we know from Melisandre that Jon can access it's power if he chooses.

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13 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

If Jon Snow is truly Rhaegar's bastard son, then why doesn't he have dragon dreams, dreams about fire or flying? He only dreams about winterfell, weirwoods and the crypts and warging. Plus, he doesn't have a single physical targaryen feature. 

Because Jon is not the son of a Targaryen.  Jon is the son of Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark.  

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3 hours ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

Because Jon is not the son of a Targaryen.  Jon is the son of Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark.  

If you read enough of the threads you'll realize there's no contradiction here since Mance Rayder is really . . . Rhaegar Targaryen!

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23 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

How is this possible?

He may have been at the Harrenhal tourney. He may have heard Rhaegar sing, and see Lyanna sniffle at the song. He may have gone to Winterfell later, disguised, and swooned Lyanna with the sad song.

Quote

Abel bowed. "If it please your lordship." Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall.

[...]

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

[...]

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made."

[...]

"I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife. A man should die the way he's lived. For me that's steel in hand."

 

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8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Jon isn't Rhaegar's bastard son. B)

He is, though I'm sure the stans will pour into this thread by the thousands I shall explain why. 

 

POLYGAMY:

  • Polygamy hasn't been done since Maegor the Cruel, and I'm sure that Rhaegar didn't want that parallel coming about
  • The Faith would not be happy, Dorne would not be happy, Tywin would be offering Cersei as a third wife. A mess. 

ANNULMENT:

  • Marriage can only be annuled if said marriage hasn't been consummated. Elia had already produced two heirs so he can't hold up a prophecy as why he needs it, he can't claim she was unfaithful, all that
  • Jon would be born to union that bathed the realm in blood, I doubt anyone's going to want to legitimize him
  • Polygamy would seem to be the solution, though that's already up

Other reasons:

  • He's male, and a potential male rival heir is not good for Rhaenys and Aegon
  • How big's his army? 

 

IMO, Rhaegar was thinking this: Get Lyanna to think their married, bed her and get her pregnant. Then hope to hell it's a girl. Beat Robert, and if a girl is indeed produced do the "ice and fire"  "dragon has three heads" "Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya" thing. 

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24 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

IMO, Rhaegar was thinking this: Get Lyanna to think their married, bed her and get her pregnant. Then hope to hell it's a girl. Beat Robert, and if a girl is indeed produced do the "ice and fire"  "dragon has three heads" "Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya" thing. 

The song of ice and fire is the sword of ice and fire: it is the anvil and the hammer the CotF use to submit humanity to their rule. The prince that was promised was the one offered to rule over mankind under their command in exchange for magical powers.

Storm’s End has the same description as the Fist of the First Men.

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7 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Marriage can only be annuled if said marriage hasn't been consummated. Elia had already produced two heirs so he can't hold up a prophecy as why he needs it, he can't claim she was unfaithful, all that

Rhaegar could set aside Elia then marry Lyanna, Dorne would have been even more pissed of course but it is legally possible.

We have a precedent with Lord Dorian Hightower, Renly was plotting against Cersei to get Robert to set her aside and marry Margaery, Cersei feared this possibility as well.

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7 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

IMO, Rhaegar was thinking this: Get Lyanna to think their married, bed her and get her pregnant. Then hope to hell it's a girl. Beat Robert, and if a girl is indeed produced do the "ice and fire"  "dragon has three heads" "Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya" thing. 

 

28 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Rhaegar could set aside Elia then marry Lyanna, Dorne would have been even more pissed of course but it is legally possible.

 

huhh... I wonder why do book characters think Rhaegar was capable or smart or a good man???!! 

these two possibilities are both likely and they are both downright idiotic and cruel...

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

huhh... I wonder why do book characters think Rhaegar was capable or smart or a good man???!! 

these two possibilities are both likely and they are both downright idiotic and cruel...

I agree, Rhaegar messed up in every single way, he's absolutely not the great mastermind people seem to imagine.

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Well, lookit that. My prediction came true.

4 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Rhaegar could set aside Elia then marry Lyanna, Dorne would have been even more pissed of course but it is legally possible.

 

A very hard thing considering that Dorne looks like it made up a fairly good amount of Rhaegar's armies and since the Tyrells are lackwits sitting in a tent...

4 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

We have a precedent with Lord Dorian Hightower, Renly was plotting against Cersei to get Robert to set her aside and marry Margaery, Cersei feared this possibility as well.

I don't remember who Dorian Hightower is, but with Cersei they would at least be able to hold up: keeping power away from greedy Lannisters, Joffrey's a turd, and potentially erase that all together if they found out about the incest. 

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1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

what is your theory?

Not a theory. More a prediction of how people would react to a refute to our Lord Snow being born "legitimate" from Rhaegar and Lyanna's "twu wuv" (I believe it's fairly obvious I dislike Rhaegar and Lyanna both). 

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30 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Not a theory. More a prediction of how people would react to a refute to our Lord Snow being born "legitimate" from Rhaegar and Lyanna's "twu wuv" (I believe it's fairly obvious I dislike Rhaegar and Lyanna both). 

Well Rhaegar and Lyanna both were young and the hormones were flowing. I think most of us can fairly say we did some foolish things from being "in love" at such a time in our lives. Though most of us also didn't have political consequences for Seven Kingdoms riding on those foolish things. 

As to the question if Jon is legitimate or not... does it honestly matter? The proof of Jon's parentage is going to be seen as dubious regardless. His brother saw it in the trees? His dad, I mean uncle's crazy frog eating friend said so? Maybe his best friend found a marriage certificate in the Citadel? I think part of the tragedy of Jon's story is he'll never get his "birthright." 

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