The Return of Rickon Stark

[BlackLightning]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa isn't on her way north and won't ever come north, that is entirely show created.

Why would she not go north?

Winterfell is still her home regardless of whether she will be the ruling Lady or not.

[Odej]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

You can see how it may be annulled rather easy.

No, I can't see it. No irony, I would like you show me how.

How could Littlefinger convince Faith to annul Sansa's marriage? He is counting with Tyrion's death to married Sansa to Harry. As far was we know he doesn't have any plans to request a annulment. The Faith Militant is currently ruling The Faith of Seven and they are very conservative. Look at what happened to Cersei. Sansa is married to a man convicted of regicide and is suspected of having participated in the crime. She fled from King's landing before being judged, she is living under a fake name, what does that say about her? Littlefinger is smart, but so is High Sparrow. Lannister's reign isn't likely to last long, it's true, and with Cersei out the search for Tyrion's head will no longer be a great deal, so is better Petyr had a plan B.

If Sor Davos find out Rickon Stark and his direwolf soon, there's nothing Littlefinger can do. Sansa, Jon and Ghost can recognize them and I don't think Petyr could turn Sansa against her brother. Until this point of story Sansa didn't have much choice on the way her life is going. The idea of marrying Harry and everything that comes with it was Petyr's. She doesn't really like Harry, she know she can't really trust Littlefinger and in her heart she may prefer a life with one of her brothers ruling Winterfell and beeing with them.

At some point Sansa needs to take control of her life! She has been carried away by other people's desires and actions since the first book!

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Why won't Sansa go north? Littlefinger has assured her Winterfell as soon as she gets married to Harrold Hardyng. We have very little reason to believe otherwise.

Sansa' arc is pawn to player and GRRM has been telling us this whole series the north is not like the south in this manner, the north remembers, the north does not play the game of thrones.

The children are given their own little bubbles in which to learn and grow, Jon's is the north, Sansa's is the Vale. The Vale is a little political training ground for Sansa with all it's little house intricacies to be deftly navigated. Graduation from the Vale will lead to the big league, Kings Landing, not a regression which would be the north.

Sansa's sentimental attachment to the north is to what was and what has been lost. That's part of what the snow castle Winterfell is about, it's a cherished naive childhood that was destroyed by the savage giant (LF). It's gone, even if she were to rebuild Winterfell the people that made it what it was are dead or like her, changed.

Sansa has very minor affinity with anyone in the north, Jon, for whom she spends a whole two sentences thinking about (and Jon two back), and Jeyne who is of no political consequence. In comparison down south there's the lord commander of the kingsguard for whom she is the last chance of honour and his bestie who has spent the series searching Westeros for her. There's the cynical dog who has found faith, a love interest popping up in her thoughts and dreams who can smell a lie, hates liars and told her to get better at lying. There's her tormentor in chief Cersei, set to be brought down by a younger more beautiful queen. There's all those she legitimately charmed in KL, Lancel to Pod. And most importantly, on the way is her husband, and he'll be on a dragon.

These are the pawns and players GRRM has had Sansa spending the first half of the series cultivating relationships with, it wasn't for nothing. That's where the story is, that's her arc, politically manoeuvring about in the coming chaos and aftermath of Aegon and Dany. Some of the moves are plain, Sansa wondered why the people of KL loved Marge, we know it was because the Tyrells fed the people after starving them, and the story in the Vale is obviously developing in a way to give Sansa control of considerable grain. Some of it is a ways off, Lancel is a highborn who has disavowed everything to join the new Faith who will very much value his sacrifice. He will rise to power within the Faith as the Faith rise in power in Westeros, and he knows the evil and cunning of Sansa's enemy Cersei while having an understanding of the Imp. As for Lancel's opinion of Sansa herself.

Quote

She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her. He wondered if his nephew was capable of loving anyone.

There's nothing in the north for Sansa's arc, she has nothing to do with Ramsay, Boltons, even the northern allies, any of them. GRRM had to remove Sansa from the north to make the character arc possible. Ramsay is Jon's, a bastard who covets everything trueborn and takes it, his inverse. Styles make fights, Ramsay fights gutter style to oppose Jon's castle trained skills and he keeps a pack of dogs to match up against Ghost. The north is Jon's, as his arc is of the north and so suited to it, he does not dance, he does not play the south's game of thrones.

Littlefinger is about to get fucked, very likely by Lynn. There will be no lasting relationship between Sansa and Harry, probably not even a beginning, the Vale is a spider web and watching LF try to manoeuvre (survive) through it (and failing) and get caught will be Sansa's graduation.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Odej said:

No, I can't see it. No irony, I would like you show me how.

There's an entire way of annulment we know nothing about. 

Hell, we don't even know if the High Septon's approval is necessary in that case.

 

3 hours ago, Odej said:

How could Littlefinger convince Faith to annul Sansa's marriage?

It goes from threats to bribery. It's not like the annulment breaks any precept of the Faith anyway.

 

 

3 hours ago, Odej said:

Look at what happened to Cersei.

I very much doubt they could pull that off in the Vale, or in King's Landing had Cersei's army remained in the city.

 

 

3 hours ago, Odej said:

Sansa is married to a man convicted of regicide and is suspected of having participated in the crime. She fled from King's landing before being judged, she is living under a fake name, what does that say about her? 

The Lannister regime is falling, soon enough none of that will matter and she can simply argue that she was afraid of being framed. 

[Darth Sidious]

Rickon is too young to have his own point of view.  GRRM hid him away for the time being.  He is the only Stark who is not involved in the game of thrones.  That will change when Manderly finds him.  He is safe for now.  He gets to grow in an isolated island and partake of their local cuisine.  It is disturbing to think of cannibals but GRRM is not into making comfortable fiction.  That primitive life is exactly the preparation he needs to survive.  The delicate ones like Sansa will not survive but primitive Rickon can dine on carrion.  

[chrisdaw]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Lannister regime is falling, soon enough none of that will matter and she can simply argue that she was afraid of being framed. 

And Aegon is set to take it over. Aegon who will be championed by the Faith. Aegon who Tyrion advised (as it turns out correctly) to attack immediately. Aegon who Tyrion saved on the Bridge of Dreams. Things will go well for Tyrion and Sansa under the Aegon regime, alleged crimes against the Lannister crown not prosecuted by the Faith will not be completely forgotten, but they're not going to stand final either.

And under Dany they're not likely to be an issue at all.

[Odej]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Hell, we don't even know if the High Septon's approval is necessary in that case.

It's said in the books for annul a marriage is necessary High Septon aproval or a Council of Faith. The current Hight Septon is quite involved in matters of proving virginity of maidens and the virtue of widows, I believe he would getting involved in the case of a marriage annulment of two great nobles.

I don't believe Littlefinger has anything that could threaten the Faith Militant. They have their own army now and an thousands of followers. When High Sparrow got the power he wanted he did not even spare the Queen Regent, the one who had put the power in his hands. It took the Tyrell army to come to King's Landing for them to release Margaery. Faith has significant strength.

As for bribery, perhaps. But a big point of Faith Militant is how absurdly devout they are. Fanatics. Different from others High Septon who were crown's pupies. High Sparrow whips people to make them confess their sins, force them to labor, let them starving, he went out into the streets that had brothels to preach against them, in fact Littlefinger owns half of the brothels in King's Landing, but it's not impossible he accept bribes.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Odej said:

It's said in the books for annul a marriage is necessary High Septon aproval or a Council of Faith. The current Hight Septon is quite involved in matters of proving virginity of maidens and the virtue of widows, I believe he would getting involved in the case of a marriage annulment of two great nobles.

Or he would not. If the Council doesn't have much to do with him. It's the thing with mystery things. Since Martin hasn't developed it in anyway, it can go whatever way.

 

 

7 hours ago, Odej said:

don't believe Littlefinger has anything that could threaten the Faith Militant. They have their own army now and an thousands of followers. When High Sparrow got the power he wanted he did not even spare the Queen Regent, the one who had put the power in his hands. It took the Tyrell army to come to King's Landing for them to release Margaery. Faith has significant strength.

He has the power of the Vale, that's more than enough to threaten the Faith Militant.

The reason why the Sparrow could get away with murder for so much with Cersei was... Cersei's army being sent to the West and the Riverlands.

 

 

7 hours ago, Odej said:

As for bribery, perhaps. But a big point of Faith Militant is how absurdly devout they are. Fanatics. Different from others High Septon who were crown's pupies. High Sparrow whips people to make them confess their sins, force them to labor, let them starving, he went out into the streets that had brothels to preach against them, in fact Littlefinger owns half of the brothels in King's Landing, but it's not impossible he accept bribes

So, instead of bribery... Assassination?? It worked well with unruly High Septons in the past.

[chrisdaw]

Sansa and Tyrion's arcs are locked together, their marriage isn't going anywhere. Sansa is learning to manipulate men for gain through their attraction to her. Tyrion has a particular desire to be loved, all the better for it being by an attractive young woman. The two are clear direct dependents for their arcs.

The central questions are is there any lengths Sansa will not go to in order to secure power for herself? And can Tyrion finally shake off his need to be loved and face up to the hard truth that like Shae she's only interested in the position he can give her?

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa' arc is pawn to player

Yes. 

Quote

Surprisingly, of all the chess pieces, only a pawn can become a queen when it reaches the base of the opponent; this is called promotion in Chess.

After castling and capturing en passant, the last special move of Chess you have to learn is the promotion of a pawn. Promotion is actually very simple. When a pawn reaches the 8th rank, it is changed into a Queen, a Rook, a Bishop, or a Knight, according to the player’s choice. The new piece replaces the pawn on the same square.

Coaching Model: Chess Pawn to Queen

21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Littlefinger is about to get fucked, very likely by Lynn.

What? You'll have to say more about this since I don't know what you mean. 

Edit:  Castling and capturing?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

 

[Odej]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Or he would not. If the Council doesn't have much to do with him. It's the thing with mystery things. Since Martin hasn't developed it in anyway, it can go whatever way.

 

 

He has the power of the Vale, that's more than enough to threaten the Faith Militant.

The reason why the Sparrow could get away with murder for so much with Cersei was... Cersei's army being sent to the West and the Riverlands.

 

 

So, instead of bribery... Assassination?? It worked well with unruly High Septons in the past.

I don't think the Vale would threaten them. Faith Militant was not intimidated by Targaryens and their dragons. Both Lannister and Tyrell armies are in King's Landing and the two queens are in Kevan and Lord Randly's power, yet there will still be judgment. The Faith proved they can put some pression.

While the Lannisters are in power Littlefinger won't show Sansa, but Aegon will probably take King's Landing. The question is, what's Littlefinger going to do? Will Vale support the boy? I imagine they will remain aloof from the war and then bow to the winner.

It is very likely Faith supports Aegon. After the kingdom being ruled by a promiscuous queen, a boy king and his wife accused of fornication, and with Tyrell and Lannister pecking eachother since Kevan won't be there to contain Cersei, the arrival of a male pretendent, educated and apparently perfect is a good option.

With Aegon in power, would Littlefinger claim an annulment? The Lannisters are the first enemies Aegon will fight 'cause they're in power and out of revenge for Elia. Littlefinger wouldn't feel safe to show Sansa with Aegon at war against Lannister since she is a Lannister by marriage. Petyr is unaware of the "friendship" between Tyrion and Aegon to assume he may not be a danger to Sansa.

And Tyrion should side with Daenerys in the second Dance what should destroy friendly feelings Aegon might feel for Tyrion and anything connected with him. Which puts Sansa in danger again. But many things can happen before the war between Dany and Aegon including Rickon's appearance, which puts Sansa's pretensions to Winterfell in the background. Which also may Sansa realise she marry Harry isn't the only way she can go home.

I still find it hard to get Sansa's marriage annulled. Marriage is something sacred to the Faith, in this case to be dissolved requires proof of non-consummation and I don't think the political situation in King's Landing will favor the process. And with Faith Militant in power, I don't think killing the High Septon would make the other more willing. They put High Sparrow in power by coercion and can just put another one even more fanatic.

[BlackLightning]

15 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa' arc is pawn to player and GRRM has been telling us this whole series the north is not like the south in this manner, the north remembers, the north does not play the game of thrones.

The North does too play the game of thrones.

Have you not read A Dance with Dragons? That's almost what that entire book was about. They just play the game differently than the southerners; there are just more rules and boundaries.

 

[Lord Stank]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:35 AM, BlackLightning said:

I think Rickon Stark will survive the series as being the future of House Stark

But I do think he will be the focal point of northern politics in the back half of The Winds of Winter and throughout A Dream of Spring. I think he and Davos might be held captive by one of the surviving Boltons at the Dreadfort in the final book. So, it'll be a three-way confrontation between the Starks and the rest of the northmen vs. the Boltons vs. the Others

Bran will be King of Westeros but the Starks of Winterfell will continue for another couple generations (or millennia) through Rickon.

I don't think that the Boltons will survive TWOW. And it seems like the entirety of the Bolton alliance or at least all the leaders are at Winterfell with Stannis outside and a storm trapping them there. Skagos is too far away for them to reach. This is assuming that they even know where he is in the first place, which seems unlikely because Wex is the only person to have seen Rickon and Osha going there and he's safe at White Harbour. Only Wyman Manderly and his allies currently know where he is.

But I do agree that Bran will be King because that was something GRRM specifically told D&D. Sansa might act as regent or something and Rickon will be the lord of Winterfell. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Odej said:

Faith Militant was not intimidated by Targaryens and their dragons.

They were, else incest would not have been accepted. Maegor was a polygamist incestuous King blessed by the High Septon and Jaeharys passed the Exceptionalism.

They also we're slaughtered by them.

It's a matter of how much devout blood people in power is willing to spill.

 

 

1 hour ago, Odej said:

Both Lannister and Tyrell armies are in King's Landing and the two queens are in Kevan and Lord Randly's power, yet there will still be judgment. The Faith proved they can put some pression.

No, Kevan has decided and convinced people like Randyll, who were more than willing to kill the High Septon, to cooperate for the rumours to die down.

Had Cersei had an actual army when she was arrested, the High Septon would have died there and then.

 

 

1 hour ago, Odej said:

With Aegon in power, would Littlefinger claim an annulment?

If he's planning on marrying Sansa and Tyrion is not dead, he might.

 

 

1 hour ago, Odej said:

still find it hard to get Sansa's marriage annulled. Marriage is something sacred to the Faith, in this case to be dissolved requires proof of non-consummation and I don't think the political situation in King's Landing will favor the process. And with Faith Militant in power, I don't think killing the High Septon would make the other more willing. They put High Sparrow in power by coercion and can just put another one even more fanatic.

Sansa's case is easier than most and the Faith has always proven to be malleable when hit by the right hammer.

It's not like Sansa is marrying her brother or something like that. It may be an scandal but it's certainly not to cause bloody outrage.

 

[Odej]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

They were, else incest would not have been accepted. Maegor was a polygamist incestuous King blessed by the High Septon and Jaeharys passed the Exceptionalism.

They also we're slaughtered by them.

It's a matter of how much devout blood people in power is willing to spill.

 

 

No, Kevan has decided and convinced people like Randyll, who were more than willing to kill the High Septon, to cooperate for the rumours to die down.

Had Cersei had an actual army when she was arrested, the High Septon would have died there and then.

My point is, Faith Militant fought back. Even fighting against dragons and losing they didn't surrender easily until they were dissolved and forced to submit.

Kevan was smart enough to see that killing High Sparrow and let Tommem to declare Margaery's innocence would not only increase the rumors about her it would also spawn a war against the Faith, and the Throne needs no more enemies. There's already Stannis, the Ironborns and now Connington. Randyll is designed to solve every problem with violence, but that's not always the best way. Of course they could defeat the Faith in a war, but at what cost?

But Kevan and Pycelle are dead now and Cersei will be even more suspicious of the Tyrells because of that, which should spawn conflicts between Lannister and Tyrell at a time when the two Houses more need to get united. I believe Martin will cause as much as possible between Tyrell, Lannister and Faith Militant to make Aegon's conquest easier and leave the real war to him and Daenerys.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I expect him to have met a skagosi skinchanger, a thane or at least someone respected by the rest of the skagosi to teach him how to master his skinchanging abilities and tame at least some of his savagery. Maybe this person is tied to the Three Eyed Crow and the Childrens via weirwood trees.