Why do people hate essos?

[Craving Peaches]

I like the Free Cities but the Dothraki and Slaver's Bay feel like they wouldn't work in reality.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I like the Free Cities but the Dothraki and Slaver's Bay feel like they wouldn't work in reality.

Coupled with the fact that Dany’s arc is so frustrating in ADWD.

Most of us just want to see her get Medieval on the slavers’ asses.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Coupled with the fact that Dany’s arc is so frustrating in ADWD.

Most of us just want to see her get Medieval on the slavers’ asses

They could have hurried things along a bit by, for example, having the slaves in Meereen/Yunkai revolt and kill all the masters after hearing about the sack of Astapor.

[StarkTullies]

I don't hate Essos.  ADWD is my favorite book of the five, and approximately half of that book takes place in Essos, so obviously I can't hate Essos too much.  Theon and Jon's chapters are my favorites in that book, but Dany's chapters are easily third place.

I understand other people's frustrations with the Essos storylines, though.  The main storyline is in Westeros, and I expect that Essos will be out of the picture by the last book with barely an afterthought.  Dany's chapters in Book 1 are relevant to the main plot, but her chapters in Books 2-3 come across as filler to me (with the exception of the House of the Undying chapter) to give Dany something to do because the story wasn't ready for her to arrive in Westeros.  Her chapters in Book 5 were largely about character development more than plot progression, but that can be largely said about Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Arya, etc. too.  I see Books 4-5 more focused on the character arcs of the major characters before coming to the main events in the last two books, which is why some people don't like Books 4 and 5 as much.  I love them though.

I will say that Arya's chapters in AFFC and ADWD are about my least favorite chapters in the last two books... not because they take place in Essos, but because until I know the pay-off of Arya's Faceless Man arc, it seems like too much time has been spent on those chapters.  I also think that Tyrion's POV chapters in ADWD could have been condensed to have one or two fewer chapters.  Quentyn generally doesn't top the list of most people's favorite POV chapters, but he's one of my most liked characters so I find his chapters worthwhile.  And Barristan's chapters in post-Dany Meereen are awesome.

[hnv]

I actually like Essos but it's clear it was created in strata and someone of the earlier strata do not exhibit great world-building. At first we had a lot of cities but with very minimal agriculture and food production. all around there were vast sparsely inhabited placed which gives Essos a pretty big graveyard vibe (especially if we look at the lands beyond the Bone Mountains).

later works were far more complex and better but the Free Cities are still slightly far-fetched to me and the Dothraki sea unreasonable (along with the Dothraki who are the only ethnic group in Planetos that add nothing to the world)

[the trees have eyes]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:03 PM, skullscarf said:

I don't agree that many people hate Essos. I think a lot of people are very critical of the worldbuilding in Essos. Westeros just feels more richly developed in comparison, so a lot of people are much more invested in the Westerosi characters and plots. More importantly though, a lot of the writing for Essos depends on orientalist stereotypes, particularly the Dothraki. For some people, this can detract from enjoyment of the story...

There's no doubt the Dothraki and Slaver's Bay are presented unfavourably in cultural / political terms.  But GRRM's presentation of Westeros is a pretty savage criticism of feudal monarchy and chivalry, i.e. the "western" system, so I don't know if that orientalist argument holds too strongly.  None of his societies or systems are exemplary.

Additionally, he is creating one system in Westeros with small differences for Dorne and The North, largely religious and ethnic, and with many povs to show us different aspects or reinforce the same, while in Essos he shows us many different systems.  The Free Cities are not a composite and are split between slave-owning and non-slave-owning, the Dothraki are a nomadic culture, Slaver's Bay is a distinct isolated region, Qarth is a culture all to itself and Ashaai and Yi-Ti are merely mentioned in passing - and we have only Dany's chapters (pre-ADWD) to show or tell us anything about these places.

In other words more worldbuilding slows the story down and probably makes Dany's chapters vast unreadable infodumps.

From ADWD on, we have Tyrion in Essos and Barristan in lieu of Dany in Meereen but the focus is on the story (as it should be imo) rather than worldbuilding with the introduction of young Griff and the build up to the battle of Mereen.  The problem is there is no pay off as the battle of Fire is bumped to TWOW and we just get Tyrion's travelogue.  If Victarion had arrived with the iron fleet and the dragon-binding horn and we saw what GRRM had in mind it might be different but it's all just hanging.

On 2/19/2022 at 9:39 PM, Aldarion said:

Because the entire thing reads like a carricature. Unlike his characters, Martin's worldbuilding was never very realistic. But Westeros you can at least pretend that it makes sense. Essos? No way in hell. The entire thing, especially the Slaver's Bay, is worse than modernist art. Slaver Bay's societies are completely unsustainable, and exist entirely to be Daenerys' punching bag.

All of Essos?  I read the Free Cities as somewhat inspired by the Italian city states of the medieval period with Volantis as the regional powerhouse.  Braavos of course has the Iron Bank and the canals - as well as the Titan of Braavos i.e. a copycat Colossus of Rhodes) so a composite of Milan / Venice.  The Dothraki as a horse borne warrior culture who threaten the region only to be bought off with tribute are a loose analogue for any steppe-raiding nomads from the huns to the mongols.  They're broad strokes but whether they "make sense" depends on how much detail you want.

Slaver's Bay is a caricature but even then the idea (if not the training) of the Unsullied as slave soldiers is not so preposterous: the Ottoman Turks took the children of Christian slaves and trained them as janissaries, an elite corps who formed a kind of praetorian guard within their army for centuries.

I do agree that the Dothraki and Slaver's Bay systems are intended to repulse both the reader and Dany so that she learn the point of a ruler's responsibility towards those they rule but both the show ending and GRRM's habit of setting an expectation and then pulling the rug out from under the reader have led me to question this. 

If all she learns is fire and blood then we should have had the five year gap so she could turn up in Westeros on dragon-back and start torching things like Aegon the Conqueror on The Field of Fire.

[Aldarion]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:34 PM, the trees have eyes said:

All of Essos?  I read the Free Cities as somewhat inspired by the Italian city states of the medieval period with Volantis as the regional powerhouse.  Braavos of course has the Iron Bank and the canals - as well as the Titan of Braavos i.e. a copycat Colossus of Rhodes) so a composite of Milan / Venice.  The Dothraki as a horse borne warrior culture who threaten the region only to be bought off with tribute are a loose analogue for any steppe-raiding nomads from the huns to the mongols.  They're broad strokes but whether they "make sense" depends on how much detail you want.

 

- That may be true, but thematically Free Cities are closer to Westeros than they are to majority of Essos. Dothraki, Slaver's Bay etc. are completely removed from the Free Cities.

- Dothraki may be intended as an analogue, but they end up being a completely retarded carricature. They lack literally everything that made Mongols successful:

https://fantasyview.wordpress.com/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/18/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-1-overview-of-the-invasion/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/12/16/how-mongol-invasion-shaped-hungarys-defense-strategy/

[Bowen Marsh]

The op is making an assumption that is not accurate unless the questions is being asked to a specific audience.  This audience, Bowen Marsh, hates the North and most anything concerning Jon Snow. It's the North and the POV characters there that I hate.  It's not Essos that I hate.  I like Essos because the POVs that I like reading are there.  From Dany to Barristan.  Vic to Qentyn.  I liked them. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Bowen Marsh said:

This audience, Bowen Marsh, hates the North and most anything concerning Jon Snow. It's the North and the POV characters there that I hate. 

I'm really glad you pointed this out to me. I would never have guessed otherwise.

[Daenerysthegreat]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:39 PM, StarkTullies said:

I will say that Arya's chapters in AFFC and ADWD are about my least favorite chapters in the last two books... not because they take place in Essos, but because until I know the pay-off of Arya's Faceless Man arc, it seems like too much time has been spent on those chapters.

There were 5 chapters, in total, easily forgettable to me since the pov itself changes (2arya-cat-blind girl-ugly girl)

[Bowen Marsh]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm really glad you pointed this out to me. I would never have guessed otherwise.

Clarity is good.  Like Renly's peace peach. 

 

EDIT - The op made assumptions which only applies to a specific audience and not the whole of the fandom. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Clarity is good.  Like Renly's peace peach.

I agree. The clearest source is the text itself. Sadly some people chose to ignore the text. It makes discussions quite frustrating.

[Daenerysthegreat]

7 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The op made assumptions which only applies to a specific audience and not the whole of the fandom. 

Well I did, but the situation was different a year ago. I had met tons of anti Essos fans then along with other people(do visit the n + w = j thread, you’ll see what flame wars mean, I’m surprised half of the thread wasn’t banned)

[Craving Peaches]

I don't believe anyone genuinely hates Essos (or anything else in the story for that matter). People do strongly dislike certain aspects of the books, be it characters, plotlines etc. but actually hating something takes quite a lot of effort and in the end it's all fictitious. But I could be wrong.

[astarkchoice]

I suspect its due to being sucked into westeros on 1st books then constantly being drawn away  from the area they were used to can be annoying.

 

Mereen we know grmm chose long bizzare names to help us feels.danys sense of being out of place.

[Ring3r]

I don't think people hate it, although I think a fair case could be made that they don't like it as much as the stuff in Westeros.

I think that's probably because it's somewhat disconnected from the overall plot (at least thus far) because it's so complex that it's taken 5 books to set up.  That'll change in WoW.  Also, I think some people are frustrated reading about everything going on over there because Dany is a favorite character for so many people and things are just not going her way, and seemingly getting continually worse.

[sifth]

Truth be told, I think it makes the series too complicated and things were already complicated in Westeros. I was fine when it was only Dany over there, but now that we have 4 or 5 POV characters over there, it makes things a little too complicated.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I don't hate but it isn't as fleshed out or interesting as Westeros in terms of story, politics and culture though it's also because it's far from being as fleshed out as Westeros.  

Also Westeros has far more and better POV than in Essos.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:45 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I'm really glad you pointed this out to me. I would never have guessed otherwise.

ditto! 

[the trees have eyes]

On 10/30/2022 at 5:37 PM, Aldarion said:

- That may be true, but thematically Free Cities are closer to Westeros than they are to majority of Essos. Dothraki, Slaver's Bay etc. are completely removed from the Free Cities.

- Dothraki may be intended as an analogue, but they end up being a completely retarded carricature. They lack literally everything that made Mongols successful:

Sure, this is GRRM's creation but he has to take his inspiration from various places and I'm fine with some broad brush strokes that are loosely based on (not a depiction of) real world cultures.  The Dothraki are just a bit of background in AGOT that were used to set up Dany's story but like I said it's for each of us to decide how much detail we want or, like the economy of Slaver's Bay, how well it fits together and stands up to analytical scrutiny.  I think fully-fleshed out systems and cultures would be both very difficult to create and would swamp the story with infodumps and reams of details the reader doesn't need.  But that's me