Heresy 239: Reflections

[Rhaella Starfall]

Long time Heresy lurker, first time poster! 

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I believe Ned is Jon's father and that Ashara is his mother. I think Ashara actually gave birth to Jon at Winterfell and left him there with a wet-nurse. Her suicide was an elaborate fake to conceal her new identity as Wylla. And I think Ned went along with it out of guilt for not being able to marry her.

I agree with parts of this. I think a lot of Ned's guilt comes from 'dishonouring' Ashara at the tourney at Harrenhal, though I think he fully intended on pursuing her hand in marriage (mainly because the honourable Lord Eddard doesn't seem the type to just have his fun and move on) but everything that follows screwed that up - he had to step into Brandon's shoes and marry Catelyn in his place.

I'm still not quite sure if Ashara got pregnant by him, though I'm inclined to think she did as various characters mention a stillborn child. I also don't think the child is dead but I also don't think it is Jon. Though again, not sure who it could be in the present story. Meera? Dany was one of my first thoughts, years ago, but that would completely take away her Targ connection, and as both Ned and Ashara have dark hair, it seems very unlikely.

I've also played around with the idea of how this would make Arthur Dayne react. Surely he'd be a bit pissed if his sister was dishonoured? But then again, maybe he approved of the match (that would've moved into marriage if the situation had been different) and that's why he looks sad at the ToJ when he has to fight Ned.

I still can't wrap my head around the way Rhaegar acted at the tourney though. We don't know much about the Prince of Dragonstone and it's possible that what we do know is has been skewed in his favour by those that loved him. But, what he did seems out of character for him, even if he was driven by prophecy. Surely there were other ways to approach Lyanna that didn't involve humiliating his pregnant wife in front of pretty much every big house in Westeros? It has to be some sort of threat or warning, as has been brought up here before.

One last thing that's always bugged me (while I'm on a roll haha) is Littlefinger's location when the whole Lyanna 'abduction' seems to kick off. I don't think he had any involvement directly as I'm pretty sure Lyanna would easily be able to fight him off. But then again, when has Littlefinger ever used his physical strength to get what he wants? The fact that he would have been travelling in the right area at around the right time (as far as I can make out) has always made me wonder. 

Quote

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he'd been born.

This is after Brandon fights Littlefinger. Brandon seemingly leaves straight after, promising Cat that they'll wed on his return. 'A fortnight' seems a pretty exact timeframe when 'some time passed' or something else vague would have also worked. I'd also love to know what was in the letter Littlefinger sends Cat after Brandon's death. 

Anyway, sorry for bringing up old stuff.

*returns to the shadows*

 

[asongofheresy]

If Jon Snow isn't son of Ashara, though I highly believe he is Ned's son regardless of mother's identity, then child of Ned and Ashara will be Allyria Dayne for me. 

I don't think a fifteen years old LF had a hand in Lyanna's abduction, but her location when Rhaegar crossed paths with her can be something to discuss of course. Was she in Maidenpool, High Heart, Isle of Faces? 

[Tucu]

Where are Aerys II's dragon eggs?

I would bet that the actions of Rhaegar and Lyanna after Harrenhal and Ned's pursuit from the Riverlands to the Crownloads to the Stormlands and into Dorne are linked to this question. It would not be the first time that a bold lady stole dragons eggs from Dragonstone

Quote

In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

Frustrated, Aerys turned to the Wisdoms of the ancient Guild of Alchemists, who knew the secret of producing the volatile jade green substance known as wildfire, said to be a close cousin to dragonflame. The pyromancers became a regular fixture at his court as the king's fascination with fire grew. By 280 AC, Aerys II had taken to burning traitors, murderers, and plotters, rather than hanging or beheading them. The king seemed to take great pleasure in these fiery executions, which were presided over by Wisdom Rossart, the grand master of the Guild of Alchemists...so much so that he granted Rossart the title of Lord and gave him a seat upon the small council.

GRRM said that the origin of Dany's eggs would be shown in F&B; so those are probably the ones stolen by Elissa Farman

[Melifeather]

The dragons eggs that Daenerys received from Illyrio seem to match up with the eggs that Aegon V "Egg" describe to Dunk in The Mystery Knight:

 

Quote

The Mystery Knight

"Do you want a clout in the ear? There are no dragons."

"No, but there are eggs. The last dragon left a clutch of five, and they have more on Dragonstone, old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly."

"Your dragon's egg." They put it in his cradle. Dunk was so used to Egg that sometimes he forgot Aegon was a prince. Of course they'd put a dragon egg inside his cradle. "Well, see that you don't go mentioning this egg where anyone is like to hear."

 

The third one was to be the prize at Lord Butterwell's Wedding Tourney:

Quote

The Mystery Knight

When Dunk finally plopped the bride onto her marriage bed, a dwarf leapt in beside her and seized one of her breasts for a bit of a fondle. The girl let out a squeal, the men roared with laughter, and Dunk seized the dwarf by his collar and hauled him kicking off m'lady. He was carrying the little man across the room to chuck him out the door when he saw the dragon's egg.

Lord Butterwell had placed it on a black velvet cushion atop a marble plinth. It was much bigger than a hen's egg, though not so big as he'd imagined. Fine red scales covered its surface, shining bright as jewels by the light of lamps and candles. Dunk dropped the dwarf and picked up the egg, just to feel it for a moment. It was heavier than he'd expected. You could smash a man's head with this, and never crack the shell. The scales were smooth beneath hisfingers, and the deep, rich red seemed to shimmer as he turned the egg in his hands. Blood and flame, he thought, but there were gold flecks in it as well, and whorls of midnight black.

 

Rhaegal's egg was deep green with burnished bronze flecks like Egg's egg. Viserion's egg was pale cream streaked with bronze and gold like Aerion's egg. And of course Drogon's egg was black and scarlet like the prize egg.

[asongofheresy]

A moment of self reflection, two years ago I think, I started to think that stray dragon lineages kept tabs open about each other and intermarried which lead to birth of Daenerys, making her a Bene Gesserit like figure that will have the necessary genes to hatch dragons, or even drawing a stricter parallel to Dune, that will lead to the birth of PTWP? I still think this is possible starting with Saera and her lineage, if she is mother of Alicent, Mysaria, an ancestor of Serenei, and Serra of Lys, her lineage can be united with Brightflame and Blackfyre over the time. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Rhaella Starfall said:

I still can't wrap my head around the way Rhaegar acted at the tourney though. We don't know much about the Prince of Dragonstone and it's possible that what we do know is has been skewed in his favour by those that loved him. But, what he did seems out of character for him, even if he was driven by prophecy. Surely there were other ways to approach Lyanna that didn't involve humiliating his pregnant wife in front of pretty much every big house in Westeros? It has to be some sort of threat or warning, as has been brought up here before.

I tend to think of Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story as more allegory than strictly factual. If she was repeating a factual account she would have used actual names, yet everyone has a mysterious descriptive name: wolf maid, laughing maid, quiet wolf, wild wolf, knight of skulls and kisses, etc.

The dropping of something in someone's lap is an idiom that indicates the giving of something unexpected and sudden. It could be desirable or it could be burdensome.

Prior to the tourney, Lyanna learns that her father promised her in marriage to Robert Baratheon. When did Lyanna learn that Robert was, to put it kindly, a lady's man? Robert couldn't have been much more than 17 years old at the tourney. Surely his reputation was still in the making? We know about Mya Stone. She's probably his first bastard from when he was a ward of Jon Arryn. But Lyanna may not have known about Robert's nature until the Harrenhal tourney when he's caught making a pass at Ashara. If you've been reading the Heresy threads for awhile you may be familiar with my theory that an innocuous line in AFFC chapter 34 Cat of the Canals, "Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey" is a parallel of Rhaegar finding Robert making his moves on Ashara. 

There's another idiom, "sing like a canary". If you sing like a canary you are reporting or confessing something to someone else. When Rhaegar's "song" made the wolf maid sniffle, perhaps it wasn't an actual performance in front of an audience. If Arya is like Lyanna, can you see Arya sniffling at a sad song? What if Rhaegar told Lyanna that he saw Robert making moves on Ashara? What if this is the news that was dropped suddenly in her lap and it made her upset? The "frosted" blue roses (Winterfell symbolism) suddenly takes on layers of meaning. Furthermore, when did the conversation with Ned take place? The one where she expressed her doubts about Robert being true and Ned tried to reassure her? Is it possible that it took place during the tourney?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just to throw a spanner into the discussion...

GRRM had been writing this story for 20 years when A Dance of Dragons was published [and Heresy began] and he's now been at it for 30 years. He's not dead so we can reasonably assume that the story has evolved and even changed in the process.

Unless you are Stephen King, I'm not sure this kind of wait is all that unusual for authors.  The first three books in Frank Herbert's Dune series were published over 30 years.  I waited 12 years for Jean Auel's last book.  The difference is that there was no social media to amplify the demand for the next book and fan dissatisfaction. Before social media and HBO; I moved on to another author and book series,  

The show was both an event and a phenomena.  Remember fan reaction to Ned Stark's death?

Hitler Reacts To Ned Stark's Death - Game Of Thrones - YouTube

Somebody has updated that one since the original aired.

From reading Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, I get the sense that Martin believed the showrunners had enough material to keep them going well beyond 8 seasons.  And perhaps he had more time to finish the next novel.  TV series these days are not the same as they were 20 years ago.  Networks and studios seemed to have capped a season at 10 hours and they expect a high return on that investment.  There were financial pressures on the showrunners such that they combined characters and wrote out characters rather than pay for the option on an actor regardless of how often they were used in a season.  Which is the why they wanted to kill off Rickon.

So I'm not sure that Martin's expectations for the show lined up with the Network's objectives after a point and there was nothing he could really do about it.  He certainly couldn't rush out the next book to keep HBO going.  So D&D did what they did to satisfy the network much to the chagrin of book readers.  Readers and viewers were set up for high expectations and it failed.  Or failed in a sense.  My niece who has never seen the show or read the books; thinks the show is fantastic.

I think we are getting another book sooner than later.  D&D weren't the only people at Santa Fe.  One of the shows producers was there as well.  He said that when Martin told then where he was heading in the books; that he was basically gobsmacked (paraphrasing).  I also have the sense that they wouldn't or couldn't use much of what Martin told them.  I'm guessing they got an outline, perhaps something like the original letter in the OP but much changed.  I think Martin has a lot of surprises in store for readers and that will be worth the wait. 

[Rhaella Starfall]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

I don't think a fifteen years old LF had a hand in Lyanna's abduction, but her location when Rhaegar crossed paths with her can be something to discuss of course. Was she in Maidenpool, High Heart, Isle of Faces? 

Agreed. I just think it's interesting, considering what he is, that he might have been in the area when everything kicked off. And the immediate results of that are seemingly in his favour - as in, Brandon gets killed. Cat mentions that he was a 'sly' child and the fact that he feels strongly enough for Cat to fight a grown man for her speaks of his obsession with her, even at that early age. Again, not suggesting he actually played a part in any of that, but his route back to the Fingers would put him in the (vaguely) right place.

 

[Melifeather]

39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Unless you are Stephen King, I'm not sure this kind of wait is all that unusual for authors.  The first three books in Frank Herbert's Dune series were published over 30 years.  I waited 12 years for Jean Auel's last book.  The difference is that there was no social media to amplify the demand for the next book and fan dissatisfaction. Before social media and HBO; I moved on to another author and book series,  

The show was both an event and a phenomena.  Remember fan reaction to Ned Stark's death?

Hitler Reacts To Ned Stark's Death - Game Of Thrones - YouTube

Somebody has updated that one since the original aired.

From reading Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, I get the sense that Martin believed the showrunners had enough material to keep them going well beyond 8 seasons.  And perhaps he had more time to finish the next novel.  TV series these days are not the same as they were 20 years ago.  Networks and studios seemed to have capped a season at 10 hours and they expect a high return on that investment.  There were financial pressures on the showrunners such that they combined characters and wrote out characters rather than pay for the option on an actor regardless of how often they were used in a season.  Which is the why they wanted to kill off Rickon.

So I'm not sure that Martin's expectations for the show lined up with the Network's objectives after a point and there was nothing he could really do about it.  He certainly couldn't rush out the next book to keep HBO going.  So D&D did what they did to satisfy the network much to the chagrin of book readers.  Readers and viewers were set up for high expectations and it failed.  Or failed in a sense.  My niece who has never seen the show or read the books; thinks the show is fantastic.

I think we are getting another book sooner than later.  D&D weren't the only people at Santa Fe.  One of the shows producers was there as well.  He said that when Martin told then where he was heading in the books; that he was basically gobsmacked (paraphrasing).  I also have the sense that they wouldn't or couldn't use much of what Martin told them.  I'm guessing they got an outline, perhaps something like the original letter in the OP but much changed.  I think Martin has a lot of surprises in store for readers and that will be worth the wait. 

I remember seeing this video too: 

 

Followed by this one:

 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Wait, could the time in Westeros be calculated through the passing of Red Comet or even according to Zodiac cycle, a Zodiac cycle lasts for 25,850 years. 

Since comets have a periodic orbit, we might calculate the time between appearances.  I'm guessing that the only record we have of a previous appearance, coincides with the first Andal invasion.  They marked their arrival by carving a star on stones at the Fingers.  I think it's telling that the star was also carved into their flesh, making it at 'bleeding' star.  A comet as a celestial phenomena can have messianic or religious interpretation depending on the culture.  The Faith militant in or story are re-enacting this practice of carving stars into their flesh. 

I think this lines up with the original AA prophecy we get from Mel:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

I think this isn't mentioning the red comet specifically but perhaps the Faith Militant's reaction to it.  By carving the star into their flesh to become 'bleeding stars'.

So if this is true, then the previous appearance of the comet can be dated to 4-6,000 years.  Which means it may have appeared 4-6,000 before the first invasion of the Andals.  That appearance might be marked by the Qaartheen tale of the two moons or the Dothraki tale of the stallion that mounts the earth.  The same event interpreted by different cultures.

What we don't have is a record of this event in Westeros before the Andals.  Perhaps because there is no written language and we don't know what the runes say.  

I think we now know the Wall was built 10,000 years in the past from interviews with Martin about one of the GoT offshoots that were being developed for HBO.  I think it was called Wolf Moon but it didn't get off the ground.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The dragons eggs that Daenerys received from Illyrio seem to match up with the eggs that Aegon V "Egg" describe to Dunk in The Mystery Knight:

 

 

The third one was to be the prize at Lord Butterwell's Wedding Tourney:

 

Rhaegal's egg was deep green with burnished bronze flecks like Egg's egg. Viserion's egg was pale cream streaked with bronze and gold like Aerion's egg. And of course Drogon's egg was black and scarlet like the prize egg.

GRRM made Drogon's egg similar to the targ sigil: black background with red decorations (the dragon and the fire):

Quote

The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls

While Daemon's egg matches the Blackfyre sigil: red background with black decorations (dragon and fire)

 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM made Drogon's egg similar to the targ sigil: black background with red decorations (the dragon and the fire):

While Daemon's egg matches the Blackfyre sigil: red background with black decorations (dragon and fire)

 

 

There were actually five eggs, but Egg only described three of them.

Quote

 

The Mystery Knight

"Do you want a clout in the ear? There are no dragons."

"No, but there are eggs. The last dragon left a clutch of five, and they have more on Dragonstone, old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly."

"Your dragon's egg." They put it in his cradle. Dunk was so used to Egg that sometimes he forgot Aegon was a prince. Of course they'd put a dragon egg inside his cradle. "Well, see that you don't go mentioning this egg where anyone is like to hear."

 

 

Euron claimed he had one:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver

"Grapes are real. A man can gorge himself on grapes. Their juice is sweet, and they make wine. What do dragons make?"

"Woe." The Crow's Eye sipped from his silver cup. "I once held a dragon's egg in this hand, brother. This Myrish wizard swore he could hatch it if I gave him a year and all the gold that he required. When I grew bored with his excuses, I slew him. As he watched his entrails sliding through his fingers he said, 'But it has not been a year.'" He laughed. "Cragorn's died, you know."

"Who?"

"The man who blew my dragon horn. When the maester cut him open, his lungs were charred as black as soot."

Victarion shuddered. "Show me this dragon's egg."

"I threw it in the sea during one of my dark moods." Euron gave a shrug. "It comes to me that the Reader was not wrong. Too large a fleet could never hold together over such a distance. The voyage is too long, too perilous. Only our finest ships and crews could hope to sail to Slaver's Bay and back. The Iron Fleet."

 

 

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

There were actually five eggs, but Egg only described three of them.

 

Euron claimed he had one:

 

There were 7 eggs at Summerhal. We don't know if these were destroyed or are among the ones Aerys II tried to hatch after Duskendale

Quote

It is unfortunate that the tragedy that transpired at Summerhall left very few witnesses alive, and those who survived would not speak of it. A tantalizing page of Gyldayn's history—surely one of the very last written before his own death—hints at much, but the ink that was spilled over it in some mishap blotted out too much.

...the blood of the dragon gathered in one... ...seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned... ...pyromancers... ...wild fire... ...flames grew out of control...towering...burned so hot that... ...died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman...

 

[asongofheresy]

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Since comets have a periodic orbit, we might calculate the time between appearances.  I'm guessing that the only record we have of a previous appearance, coincides with the first Andal invasion.  They marked their arrival by carving a star on stones at the Fingers.  I think it's telling that the star was also carved into their flesh, making it at 'bleeding' star.  A comet as a celestial phenomena can have messianic or religious interpretation depending on the culture.  The Faith militant in or story are re-enacting this practice of carving stars into their flesh. 

I think this lines up with the original AA prophecy we get from Mel:

I think this isn't mentioning the red comet specifically but perhaps the Faith Militant's reaction to it.  By carving the star into their flesh to become 'bleeding stars'.

So if this is true, then the previous appearance of the comet can be dated to 4-6,000 years.  Which means it may have appeared 4-6,000 before the first invasion of the Andals.  That appearance might be marked by the Qaartheen tale of the two moons or the Dothraki tale of the stallion that mounts the earth.  The same event interpreted by different cultures.

What we don't have is a record of this event in Westeros before the Andals.  Perhaps because there is no written language and we don't know what the runes say.  

I think we now know the Wall was built 10,000 years in the past from interviews with Martin about one of the GoT offshoots that were being developed for HBO.  I think it was called Wolf Moon but it didn't get off the ground.

The Andals are really an interesting bunch, but I will put their arrival, and the Comet's due to their connection, at 2000 years before the current events, and coincidentally when you part an astrological age to twelve like a solar calender, each "month" lasts for 2156 years, didn't Melisandre and Jon talked about the star constellations? Maybe everytime the comet appears they enter a new zodiac era, like how we are moving to age of Aquarius from age of Pisces. 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There were 7 eggs at Summerhal. We don't know if these were destroyed or are among the ones Aerys II tried to hatch after Duskendale

 

True. I just thought it was possible that they were the same eggs in The Mystery Knight, because the descriptions were so similar. Especially since they seemed to change color depending on which way the light hits them.

[asongofheresy]

Wanted to ask about possible appearence of the red comet from Ned's dream about the Tower of Joy, in Revelation, there is a mention of a great star falling from the heaven, this star is identified as wormwood, the Hebrew word for it is La'anah, and means bitterness, not only that but name of Mary's name also means bitter, is it a hint that Lyanna is a Mary figure? 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Unless you are Stephen King, I'm not sure this kind of wait is all that unusual for authors.  The first three books in Frank Herbert's Dune series were published over 30 years.  I waited 12 years for Jean Auel's last book.  The difference is that there was no social media to amplify the demand for the next book and fan dissatisfaction.

Ah, no you're missing the point...

We know that a lot of the detail in that outline has changed, over the years, but what about the overall story and where it's going? All authors find that characters have a mind of their own

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

True. I just thought it was possible that they were the same eggs in The Mystery Knight, because the descriptions were so similar. Especially since they seemed to change color depending on which way the light hits them.

They could be, but that would mean that GRRM lied about F&B:

Quote

What really happened during the Dance of the Dragons? Why did it become so deadly to visit Valyria after the Doom? What is the origin of Daenerys’s three dragon eggs? These are but a few of the questions answered in this essential chronicle, as related by a learned maester of the Citadel and featuring more than eighty all-new black-and-white illustrations by artist Doug Wheatley. Readers have glimpsed small parts of this narrative in such volumes as The World of Ice & Fire, but now, for the first time, the full tapestry of Targaryen history is revealed.

https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/fire-and-blood/

Of course there is the possibility that the eggs made their way from the Sealord back into Targ and Blackfyre hands and then back into Essos via Varys/Illyrio

And there will still be a lot of dragon eggs missing in ASOIAF

[asongofheresy]

What's the significance of historical figures of Asoiaf that has names starting with G? Galladon of Morne, Gaven Greywolf, Garth the Green, Grey King, Garin the Great, Gendel, and Gorne. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, no you're missing the point...

We know that a lot of the detail in that outline has changed, over the years, but what about the overall story and where it's going? All authors find that characters have a mind of their own

Well I see why he doesn't like doing outlines.  Overall, I don't know if his objectives have changed all that much.  He seems on track for this:

Quote

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

I don't expect this stage of the story to be quite so neat a package.  I don't think we'll see the final battle or the coalescing of plot and character threads until the final book.