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Heresy 239: Reflections


Black Crow

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Was discussing sellswords with a friend and my phone autocorrected the word to sells words instead, and I thought that's kinda true, they do sell their word to support a side, don't they? Is this a word play I didn't notice before? 

A small edit, I have never noticed it but the Turkish translation have Jon being referred as esmer compared to Robb, esmer is a term used for brown skin, Google gives you Halle Berry, Beyonce, and Rihanna as examples of esmer woman, all three are mixed, and the word is also used for brown sugar, and brown rice, wanted to share this for any future discussion on Jon's parentage. 

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On 10/29/2021 at 12:41 PM, asongofheresy said:

I remember coming across Andals being compared to the Puritans, but sadly I don't know much about Puritans to understand the connection, would it make sense to compare them? 

First post here! But I’m fairly certain GRRM based the Faith on his own upbringing in Catholicism. The andal invasion to me has always seemed much more similar to the later Roman invasions of Gaul and the British Islands. If you’ve watched either the Vikings or Last Kingdom, you could perhaps compare the Andals to a reversion of the Viking invasions. 

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One of the fundamental errors by all of us (explicitly including myself) is that we want everything to have a meaning and get resolved. That is just not realistic.

For example, JFK was shot two years before I was born, still it is not finally concluded whether Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone or whether it was some kind of conspiracy.

I guess that is the fascination of ASoIaF. GRRM created a world we cannot decipher and will discusd ad infinetum.

 

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A self reflection on 5 year gap, although I am curious to see how a gap would have been in the series, a comic I have been following had a four year gap, and I absolutely hated how characters turned out after that, I felt like I didn't recognize any of them and not only that before we were reintroduced to established cast we were introduced to new cast and I hated every one of them for stealing the spotlight from characters I already now, so maybe George abandoning the gap is a mercy on us 

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I don't recall if we've ever explored what it could mean for a planet to have two moons versus one. Earthly scientists theorize that if we had two moons it would be catastrophic. Two moons would lead to larger tides - 6 times higher at their peaks - and wipe out coastal cities like New York, London, and Singapore.

The extra gravitational pull would slow Earth's rotation, leading to longer days. A second moon could also cause a tug of war between the three triggering violent volcanic eruptions.

Here's something really interesting. Our current moon is slowly spiraling away from Earth at about the same speed that our fingernails grow, lengthening our day by 1 second every 40,000 years. It doesn't sound like much, but having two moons would speed up the process. A million years from now the Earth could have 28 hour days:

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The bigger problem though is that the second moon would be in danger of colliding with the other moon. The impact would be so massive it would rip the very core of the moons apart. Lava would erupt from their center — like a runny egg in space. Casting a vivid red light in the sky on Earth. Meanwhile, debris would go hurtling in all directions, where some of it would inevitably strike Earth, forming massive craters miles wide.

It would be an apocalypse for all life on Earth.

And what didn't hit the planet would instead be trapped by Earth's gravity. Forming a ring of debris around the equator. Similar to the rings around Saturn — but not for long. Within just a few years, those chunks would clump together, forming one large, single body.

Perhaps any life that survived will call it the Moon, or maybe something even better.

 

Sounds a bit like the red comet and the breaking of the moon in Westerosi history!

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29 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

A woods witch told King Mern III Gardner that she could raise the dead as an army against the Andals???? Why I didn't know about this tidbit until today. 

We discussed it at some point. I classify it as evidence for "the trees did it!"

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We discussed it at some point. I classify it as evidence for "the trees did it!"

It's a great evidence that the CotF had a hand in raising the Others. 

Also unrelated but why did House Vance, an Andal House, fought against a Teague King when he tried to stop worship of Old Gods in favor of the Faith? That doesn't make any sense to me. 

Too many subjects today, I find out tourmaline was originally referred to carnelian gemstone, in the series we only have one usage of the word for cyvasse piece in AFFC, carnelian means flesh, it is also related to sard gemstone, iirc also means flesh, but means intercourse and cold as well, and sard combines with onyx to make sardonyx. An intercourse with woman with cold flesh, is it a reference to Corpse Queen? 

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3 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Also unrelated but why did House Vance, an Andal House, fought against a Teague King when he tried to stop worship of Old Gods in favor of the Faith? That doesn't make any sense to me.

The river lords have a long history of rebellion against their overlords. Previous Teague Kings (and other riverlands kings) were often fighting rebels lords. House Vance probably was not pious enough to put aside other grievances against the Teagues.

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Did we ever discuss the Corpse Queen in detail?

She seems to be the origin of the Others. Necrophilia seems to be involved, and the CotF. Is this a link to the dead mother direwolf, too?

The best clue I have found about the Corpse Queen and the dead she-wolf starts from this:

Quote

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales … maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

"No matter," said Hullen. "They be dead soon enough too."

Born with the dead is a sci-fi novella that beat A Song for Lya for the Nebula award of 1974.

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A man's wife is among the rekindled dead now. He's heard that she was on an airplane to Zanzibar with five other rekindled dead. As a "warm" he was not really allowed to make contact with her. The dead liked to stay in their cold-cities. But he'd loved her so much when she was alive, he just had to try

The novella is available in the Internet Archive and might have been a source of inspiration for the Others:

https://archive.org/details/Fantasy_Science_Fiction_v046n04_1974-04/page/n1/mode/2up?view=theater

 

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According to Maesters, the Corpse Queen may be a Dustin of Barrowlands, and of course the Barrowlands are known for the curse of the First King. Imo First King of First Men was Garth the Green, and the God on Earth, his curse caused his successors to have shorter and shorter reigns, if Maesters thought Corpse Queen was his descendant, was she one of the legendary daughters of Garth? And I mentioned a woods witch telling Mern III that she could raise an army of the dead against the Andals, and during the time of Garth there was a woods witch that had intercourse with Garth's twin sons, as long as Herndon and Harlon was with her during full moon they wouldn't age. Is she a seperate figure, is there a hint the incest, was the twins actually the lovers of Florys? 

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The best clue I have found about the Corpse Queen and the dead she-wolf starts from this:

Born with the dead is a sci-fi novella that beat A Song for Lya for the Nebula award of 1974.

The novella is available in the Internet Archive and might have been a source of inspiration for the Others:

https://archive.org/details/Fantasy_Science_Fiction_v046n04_1974-04/page/n1/mode/2up?view=theater

 

Maybe the corpse queen wasn't actually an Other nor an undead being? Maybe she was just someone that people thought was dead? Just as being born with the dead or born in the crypts just means that the child was born of a woman that people thought was dead. This inflating of the facts is no different than "otherizing" your enemies.

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6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe the corpse queen wasn't actually an Other nor an undead being? Maybe she was just someone that people thought was dead? Just as being born with the dead or born in the crypts just means that the child was born of a woman that people thought was dead. This inflating of the facts is no different than "otherizing" your enemies.

One of the main themes of the novella is otherizing; not just of the rekindled with their emergent culture but of humans (and their "tribes") and extinct animals brought back to life by "genetic necromancers".

Othering is applied widely in ASOIAF; not just for the WW, but for the skinchangers, giants,COTF, wildlings, valyrians, rhoynar, dothraki, ghiscari and so on.

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44 minutes ago, Tucu said:

One of the main themes of the novella is otherizing; not just of the rekindled with their emergent culture but of humans (and their "tribes") and extinct animals brought back to life by "genetic necromancers".

Otherizing is applied widely in ASOIAF; not just for the WW, but for the skinchangers, giants,COTF, wildlings, valyrians, rhoynar, dothraki, ghiscari and so on.

Maybe the corpse queen was the daughter of Winterfell that went missing when Bael traipsed down from the Wall, and that is why the Lord of Winterfell went to the Wall to join up with Joramun to take down the Nights King in the first place?  Joramun was the King Beyond the Wall, so maybe the Stark bastard that was the Lord Commander was the one that played Bael? Or he simply visited Winterfell as the Lord Commander, but when the daughter of Winterfell went missing, the Lord Stark started calling him Bael?

During the time that she went missing she married the Lord Commander. Everything seemed fine for a number of years until the Lord Stark decides he's got an idea to get rid of him under the trumped up charges of sacrificing. The Lord Stark pretends he doesn't recognize his daughter, because of course she's "dead", thus the "corpse" queen. Then when he's got her back at Winterfell and it becomes obvious that she's pregnant, then of course she miraculously shows up in her bedroom with the Bastard O'Winterfell.

This ban regarding the Watch getting married comes after this.

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34 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe the corpse queen was the daughter of Winterfell that went missing when Bael traipsed down from the Wall, and that is why the Lord of Winterfell went to the Wall to join up with Joramun to take down the Nights King in the first place?  Joramun was the King Beyond the Wall, so maybe the Stark bastard that was the Lord Commander was the one that played Bael? Or he simply visited Winterfell as the Lord Commander, but when the daughter of Winterfell went missing, the Lord Stark started calling him Bael?

During the time that she went missing she married the Lord Commander. Everything seemed fine for a number of years until the Lord Stark decides he's got an idea to get rid of him under the trumped up charges of sacrificing. The Lord Stark pretends he doesn't recognize his daughter, because of course she's "dead", thus the "corpse" queen. Then when he's got her back at Winterfell and it becomes obvious that she's pregnant, then of course she miraculously shows up in her bedroom with the Bastard O'Winterfell.

This ban regarding the Watch getting married comes after this.

The supplemental books (F&B, world book, dunk stories) have a series of women (specially widows) being accused of witchcraft and sometimes necromancy. This includes mad Danelle Lothston, Alys Rivers, Rohanne Webber and even Rhaena. It would make sense if the corpse queen was also a case of othering. This takes us back to Mern's woods witch and maybe Dalla and Val

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On 11/2/2021 at 12:09 PM, alienarea said:

Did we ever discuss the Corpse Queen in detail?

She seems to be the origin of the Others. Necrophilia seems to be involved, and the CotF. Is this a link to the dead mother direwolf, too?

Heresy 233 A walk on the White Sid[h]e is worth another look

Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e - A Dance with Dragons - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

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Just now, Black Crow said:

Heresy 233 A walk on the White Sid[h]e is worth another look

What I am interested in is how the "Neverborn" concept is supposed to fit with the Corpse Queen.

What happens if a pregnant woman dies and is raised from the dead - will the pregnancy continue, if so, how?

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