Heresy 239: Reflections

[Frey family reunion]

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If it wasn't for Howland, Arthur would have killed Ned, or so he said.  So what is implied is that Howland stabbed Arthur in the back.  I'm not sure how much I want to trust these shows after the last one.  Would Martin reveal this information after keeping Howland a mystery for so long?

My suspicion is that Howland didn’t intervene in a physical way.  My guess is that Howland was the one who may have presented the knight’s dilemma to Arthur.  The issue being that while Arthur was duty bound to fulfill a sworn oath to the King, the fulfillment of that sworn oath may have caused Arthur to violate other oaths he took as a knight.  For example, to protect the innocent.  So what happens when the oath you swear to the king causes you to violate your oath to protect the innocent?

I think when Howland brought this up it stayed Arthur’s hand and kept him from killing Ned.  And Arthur decided if he couldn’t fulfill his oath to the king, it was death before dishonor.  Basically Arthur than let Ned kill him.  Ned then discovers the awful secret inside the tower. 

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My suspicion is that Howland didn’t intervene in a physical way.  My guess is that Howland was the one who may have presented the knight’s dilemma to Arthur.  The issue being that while Arthur was duty bound to fulfill a sworn oath to the King, the fulfillment of that sworn oath may have caused Arthur to violate other oaths he took as a knight.  For example, to protect the innocent.  So what happens when the oath you swear to the king causes you to violate your oath to protect the innocent?

I think when Howland brought this up it stayed Arthur’s hand and kept him from killing Ned.  And Arthur decided if he couldn’t fulfill his oath to the king, it was death before dishonor.  Basically Arthur than let Ned kill him.  Ned then discovers the awful secret inside the tower. 

I think Ned would have felt dishonored in the eyes of gods and men if Howland stabbed Ser Arthur in the back and then Ned finished him off.  I do think it's possible that Howland delivered a fatal wound to save Ned and there were last words between Ned and Arthur.  Ned may have understood that Arthur had taken a vow to the death in defense of his king and didn't put it aside after Aerys death.  As Brienne tells us a vow made to one who is dead is the most binding of all.  

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, LynnS said:

I think Ned would have felt dishonored in the eyes of gods and men if Howland stabbed Ser Arthur in the back and then Ned finished him off.  I do think it's possible that Howland delivered a fatal wound to save Ned and there were last words between Ned and Arthur.  Ned may have understood that Arthur had taken a vow to the death in defense of his king and didn't put it aside after Aerys death.  As Brienne tells us a vow made to one who is dead is the most binding of all.  

I really don’t think Howland stabbed anyone in the back.  I think Arthur’s death was a purely voluntary act, which is why Eddard thinks so highly of him.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

But he killed Arthur before, i.e. the fight of the ToJ happened before Robert's coronation?

No, not from the series of events we are given by Ned in the ToJ dream, he goes to the Trident, then to King's Landing, and then to lift the Siege of Storm's End, that ends the Rebellion as well, as Lords Tyrell and Redwyne bends the knee to Robert as their new king, then ToJ happens, he goes to Starfall, and returns, we are never told he had a baby with him and Jon was there when Catelyn and Robb arrived to Winterfell. At least that's the information we have, but of course we could be lied to by the fever dream. 

[Black Crow]

Dreams, as GRRM pointed out shouldn't necessarily be taken literally, especially when they are fever dreams. This wasn't a recollection calmly related by Lord Eddard when he was awake, sober and alert.

Independently we're told that he and Trouserless Bob had quarrelled after the Sack of King's Landing but were reconciled by the shared loss after Lyanna's death. If this new narrative is to be regarded as canon [is it?], then there are two interpretations to be made.

Either, Lord Eddard swept along the South accepting the submissions of the last Lords, killed the three Ronin at the Tower, came back for the Coronation then went south again to drop off the sword and pick up the baby.

OR...

Very soon after King's Landing was stormed and Bob was crowned almost at once, before Ned went south to mop up the hold-outs.

The latter seems likelier and is supported both by the Lords' submissions and by the Ronin referring to Bob as the usurper, implying that he was actually occupying the throne.

[Black Crow]

OK... finally got around to looking at the video, which seems a touch dodgy to me in terms of canon, but be that as it may, it looks to me as Ser Arthur was struck down by someone - not necessarily Lord Eddard - and that while he was lying wounded, Ned finished him off with a misericorde dagger

Misericorde (weapon) - Wikipedia

What I'd be more wary of is the statement that having polished off Ser Arthur, Lord Eddard found something in the tower...

[asongofheresy]

That something would be Lyanna, a wetnutse, and baby Jon, if the show is to be believed, but we have no knowledge of Ned traveling with a baby. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I really don’t think Howland stabbed anyone in the back.  I think Arthur’s death was a purely voluntary act, which is why Eddard thinks so highly of him.

I like the idea of Arthur being a soiled knight that found redemption in death (as did Arys). Jamie says this:

Quote

I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around.

Serving a bad king will always soil a KG; we have seen this with all the KGs in the books. Balon Swann is the latest by following the plan for the fake attack by Tyrion on Trystane.

In some way Arthur's redemption would have become part of Ned's shame and broken promises.

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

Sounds reasonable. Ned left the day after Robert got to KL. Ned probably travelled a lot before getting back to WF with Jon. There is the coronation, the reconciliation between Ned&Bob and Bob's marriage. As always GRRM is loose with the timeline and order of events.

If the following is confirmed:

1. ToJ fight

2. Roberts coronation

3. Ned returning Dawn

then:

a) the fever dream is a dream

b) Baby Jon could not have been at the ToJ or Ned would have travelled to Winterfell with Jon first before attending Robert's coronation

-> that other thread would go insane

Alternatively, if the timeline is

1. Robert's coronation

2. ToJ fight

the three Kingsguard at the ToJ are not Kingsguard anymore but Ronin, kind of. 

 

 

[asongofheresy]

Wait, wouldn't Robert wait to give clemency to 3KG like he did with Barristan, at least to Gerold Hightower if Robert knew he had no hand in abducting Lyanna unlike Arthur and Gerold? 

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Wait, wouldn't Robert wait to give clemency to 3KG like he did with Barristan, at least to Gerold Hightower if Robert knew he had no hand in abducting Lyanna unlike Arthur and Gerold? 

[a] Bob was nowhere near

Ned plainly invited a surrender, but being Ronin they refused

[asongofheresy]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

[a] Bob was nowhere near

Ned plainly invited a surrender, but being Ronin they refused

Ah true if the dream convo has any hint, then he did asked them to kneel to Robert but they refused. Still I believe all 3 live under other identities. 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Ah true if the dream convo has any hint, then he did asked them to kneel to Robert but they refused. Still I believe all 3 live under other identities. 

"Ned, promise me to let them go"

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like the idea of Arthur being a soiled knight that found redemption in death (as did Arys). Jamie says this:

Serving a bad king will always soil a KG; we have seen this with all the KGs in the books. Balon Swann is the latest by following the plan for the fake attack by Tyrion on Trystane.

In some way Arthur's redemption would have become part of Ned's shame and broken promises.

Of course Jaime is full of BS as well.  He acts like he naively came into the Kingsguard with the best of intentions, only to be ruined by having to serve a bad king.  When of course Jaime’s prime motivation in joining the Kingsguard was so he didn’t have to marry Lysa, and he could continue fucking his sister.  

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

[a] Bob was nowhere near

Ned plainly invited a surrender, but being Ronin they refused

I agree that for the Kingsguard it was death before dishonor.  

I would suggest that Eddard singled out Arthur as a finer knight than his brothers, because whatever oaths they were fulfilling for King Aerys, they didn’t reconcile those with the other oaths they took as knights.  I think Arthur came to the realization that to continue his oath to King Aerys would violate oaths he took before he joined the Kingsguard, oaths to protect the innocent and helpless.  Arthur was the one who voluntarily chose death to avoid violating his oath to Aerys and the oath he took to protect the innocent.

And that is one thing that a lot of the R + L fanatics seem to forget.  These Kingsguards all believed that they were good little Kingsguards throughout the war.  Even when they weren’t at the Trident, and they weren’t protecting Aerys at King’s Landing.  Gerold also makes it clear that they remained loyal to Aerys.

So whatever they were up to when they were “away” and when they were in the Prince’s Pass, they were doing it under orders from the King himself.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Ah true if the dream convo has any hint, then he did asked them to kneel to Robert but they refused. Still I believe all 3 live under other identities. 

I don’t think there was any discussion of surrender.  My impression is that all parties seemed very resigned to this being a battle to the death.  Eddard just said how he had been looking for them since the Trident.  Their reply was that despite not being at the Trident, or King’s Landing, they were fulfilling their oath.  And then the swords are drawn.

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And that is one thing that a lot of the R + L fanatics seem to forget.  These Kingsguards all believed that they were good little Kingsguards throughout the war.  Even when they weren’t at the Trident, and they weren’t protecting Aerys at King’s Landing.  Gerold also makes it clear that they remained loyal to Aerys.

So whatever they were up to when they were “away” and when they were in the Prince’s Pass, they were doing it under orders from the King himself.

Yes indeedee, right through the exchange they explicitly declared their loyalty to King Aerys, not to Prince Rhaegar

[Melifeather]

According to the World Book, Robert was gravely injured by Rhaegar's hand and did not join the pursuit of the fleeing royalists back to Kings Landing:

Quote

 

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar's chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince's breastplate.

Some men on both sides stopped fighting at once, leaping instead into the river to recover the precious stones. And a general rout quickly began as the royalists started fleeing the field.

Lord Robert's wounds prevented him from taking up the pursuit, so he gave that into the hands of Lord Eddard Stark. But Robert proved his chivalry when he refused to allow the gravely wounded Ser Barristan to be killed. Instead, he sent his own maester to tend the great knight. In such fashion did the future king win the fierce devotion of his friends and allies—for few men were ever so open-handed and merciful as Robert Baratheon.

 

How long would it take for Robert to heal enough to travel to Kings Landing? It likely took weeks, so did Ned wait at Kings Landing for Robert to arrive before departing for Storms End?

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

According to the World Book, Robert was gravely injured by Rhaegar's hand and did not join the pursuit of the fleeing royalists back to Kings Landing:

How long would it take for Robert to heal enough to travel to Kings Landing? It likely took weeks, so did Ned wait at Kings Landing for Robert to arrive before departing for Storms End?

Tywin presented the bodies to Bob; this might put a limit of how much later he arrived. My guess is he was only a few days behind; Ned left immediately and pressed hard towards KL while Bob travelled at a lower pace. Barristan was seriously wounded and arrived even later

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Tucu said:

Tywin presented the bodies to Bob; this might put a limit of how much later he arrived. My guess is he was only a few days behind; Ned left immediately and pressed hard towards KL while Bob travelled at a lower pace. Barristan was seriously wounded and arrived even later

Agreed. Bob's wounds are never described but there's a fair difference between say [purely for the sake of argument] a broken arm and a broken leg. The latter may not confine him to bed, but he's not going to be very mobile. On the other hand while a broken arm might stop him fighting it won't stop him riding. A head wound - quite likely given his horned helmet - would likewise slow him down without absolutely incapacitating him. There are a lot of scenarios which could see Lord Eddard taking on the immediate pursuit while Bob follows at a more sedate pace.