Heresy 239: Reflections

[asongofheresy]

Well there needs to be some pattern in the story for us to follow right? Especially among the various "historical" characters GRRM mentioned in TWOIAF, I wonder if Zhea a Jogos Nhai figure could be a hint for Arya. That's why I previously mentioned Arya killing Jon, who could be a Night's King figure. 

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Well there needs to be some pattern in the story for us to follow right? Especially among the various "historical" characters GRRM mentioned in TWOIAF, I wonder if Zhea a Jogos Nhai figure could be a hint for Arya. That's why I previously mentioned Arya killing Jon, who could be a Night's King figure. 

"eater of grave worms" Arya and "all men must die" Arya should surely kill some wyrms (YG, BR, Dany, Jon?) and undead (Stoneheart, BR, Bran?). Do Dany and YG count as undead?

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That would be interesting.  Hodor himself as the 'back door'.

Maybe a backdoor into Bran?

[asongofheresy]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

"eater of grave worms" Arya and "all men must die" Arya should surely kill some wyrms (YG, BR, Dany, Jon?) and undead (Stoneheart, BR, Bran?). Do Dany and YG count as undead?

Well I can see her being sent for Daenerys, I remember a series about Faceless Men, and one of them was identified as the guy that played Cyvasse against Haldon and/or Tyrion. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Well I can see her being sent for Daenerys, I remember a series about Faceless Men, and one of them was identified as the guy that played Cyvasse against Haldon and/or Tyrion. 

The guy would be Qavo Nogarys. I wonder how did they link him to the FM

[asongofheresy]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

The guy would be Qavo Nogarys. I wonder how did they link him to the FM

Here's their post 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5iogft/spoilers_extended_a_character_you_dont_remember/

 

 

[alienarea]

IIRC we have speculated about a connection between the Faceless Men and the White Walkers at some point in time. Simplified, both hate dragons and worship death.

Is Quaithe a Faceless Woman?

[asongofheresy]

While I do think the Others and Faceless Men are connected, I don't think Quaithe is one. My list would be Mandon Moore, Qavo Nogarys, the squinting man with Qavo, and Godric Borrell(?). However I have noted Quaithe's name being similar to qathei, which means mother and was used for Daenerys, and Arya has Umma at the HOBAW, Umma is given a name by her and it strangely resembles the word mother in Arabic, umm, and also in Korean, omma. 

Melony = Lemony? 

[alienarea]

The Faceless Men use some kind of magic/spell to change faces. A similar (the same?) spell could be used to create the white walkers. They are "a different form of life", but also dissolve when stabbed with dragonglass. Like bodyless souls glued to an ice golem for a second life.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The Faceless Men use some kind of magic/spell to change faces. A similar (the same?) spell could be used to create the white walkers. They are "a different form of life", but also dissolve when stabbed with dragonglass. Like bodyless souls glued to an ice golem for a second life.

I'd go along with that because its not a matter of skinning the face off the dead and using it as a mask. Judging by Arya's experience its a way of becoming the dead person, by way of literally skinchanging. Once again it begs the question anent why the Boltons flay their enemies. There's no suggestion that they can skinchange but you can see where they're getting the idea from

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd go along with that because its not a matter of skinning the face off the dead and using it as a mask. Judging by Arya's experience its a way of becoming the dead person, by way of literally skinchanging. Once again it begs the question anent why the Boltons flay their enemies. There's no suggestion that they can skinchange but you can see where they're getting the idea from

Glamors, skinchanging, shadow babies, FM faces and probably dragon hatching are related to the transfer of whole souls and pieces of souls.

Mirri was toying with the souls of Drogo and the horse when Jorah and Dany interrupted an added Rhaego and the dragon eggs to the ritual.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd go along with that because its not a matter of skinning the face off the dead and using it as a mask. Judging by Arya's experience its a way of becoming the dead person, by way of literally skinchanging. Once again it begs the question anent why the Boltons flay their enemies. There's no suggestion that they can skinchange but you can see where they're getting the idea from

About Bolton and skinchanging, I shall find the theory of Domeric Bolton as a FM, if it would make an interesting read? 

[Melifeather]

We’re told the “bones remember “ so the FM are tapping into the memories of the dead. In this manner the skins are being used more like the wights. I think the white walkers are different in that the spirits used to create them are from living bodies.

[asongofheresy]

Dragons protects treasures, Viserys who isn't a "true dragon" solds treasures of Rhaella and dies asking for a golden crown. 

Also if Melony is an anagram for lemony, than copper hair won't be the only link between Sansa and Melisandre. 

[alienarea]

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd go along with that because its not a matter of skinning the face off the dead and using it as a mask. Judging by Arya's experience its a way of becoming the dead person, by way of literally skinchanging. Once again it begs the question anent why the Boltons flay their enemies. There's no suggestion that they can skinchange but you can see where they're getting the idea from

This leads to the question whether the Bolton tradition of flaying appeared before or after the Faceless Men?

The Boltons are firmly rooted in the North as bannermen of house Stark.

Wild crackpot: we have the warriors of the COTF known as wood dancers because of their camouflage which allows them to blend in with the forest.

What if the wood dancers started flaying first men to use them as camouflage and some Bolton ancestor watched or survived this?

And the Faceless Men are missing wood dancers of the COTF?

 

[asongofheresy]

So Westeros has Wood Dancers and Braavos has Water Dancers? 

[LynnS]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:22 AM, alienarea said:

Wild crackpot: we have the warriors of the COTF known as wood dancers because of their camouflage which allows them to blend in with the forest.

 

I like this idea.  The COTF as Wood Dancers.  What is the equivalent for Water Dancer?  Arya learns from Syrio how to be a Water Dancer and he's a Faceless Man.  Seem the FM could be water dancers to me; but are they allied with the wood dancers or working at cross purposes?  The Faceless God and the God of Many Faces?

On 11/12/2021 at 10:12 AM, Tucu said:

Glamors, skinchanging, shadow babies, FM faces and probably dragon hatching are related to the transfer of whole souls and pieces of souls.

Mirri was toying with the souls of Drogo and the horse when Jorah and Dany interrupted an added Rhaego and the dragon eggs to the ritual.

I like this as well.  How did the Alchemist take Pate's likeness?  Did he take his face when he killed him or is it some kind of glamour.  How does Jaqen take on a new face?  We assume he's carrying skins around but maybe the faces in the HoB&W serve a different purpose?  Used for novices who don't kow how to glamour. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I like this idea.  The COTF as Wood Dancers.  What is the equivalent for Water Dancer?  Arya learns from Syrio how to be a Water Dancer and he's a Faceless Man.  Seem the FM could be water dancers to me; but are they allied with the wood dancers or working at cross purposes?  The Faceless God and the God of Many Faces?

I like this as well.  How did the Alchemist take Pate's likeness?  Did he take his face when he killed him or is it some kind of glamour.  How does Jaqen take on a new face?  We assume he's carrying skins around but maybe the faces in the HoB&W serve a different purpose?  Used for novices who don't kow how to glamour. 

Anent the first, I don't think we're talking about groups as such; rather its a synonym for warriors trained in particular techniques.

Anent the second I think its unlikely that Jaqen is carrying faces in his pocket; rather that he, being a fully paid up member of the guild can either collect images before leaving the house, or as in the case of Pate, absorb him on the spot 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

How did the Alchemist take Pate's likeness?  Did he take his face when he killed him or is it some kind of glamour.  How does Jaqen take on a new face?  We assume he's carrying skins around but maybe the faces in the HoB&W serve a different purpose?  Used for novices who don't kow how to glamour. 

Quote

“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with.”

So they are taught mummery and glamors, but it seems their preference is in the blood magic of using an actual face.

My guess is, in a pinch they’d use a glamor, but in situations where they are going to spend a lot of time around people who know the person they are disguising themselves as, they go the route of using the actual face.

I think the alchemist may have been a glamor, but in going undercover as Pate, around people that knew him, he probably stole Pate’s face.

ETA, the other thing to consider is that he can’t leave a dead Pate, where he can easily be found and recognized.  So he had to dispose of Pate’s body, or at least remove his head.

[asongofheresy]

Regarding the connection between Faceless God and God of Many Faces, it reminds me of Koh from ATLA, Koh has many faves but he steals the faces of others to use, so I assume he doesn't have a face of his own, he is a centipede living in a cave, though I don't know if there is any mythological basis for Koh that can influence GRRM as well