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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Jaime killed Cersei, it would destroy his character arc, not complete it. Strangling your lover to death is an act of extreme domestic violence, and it probably wouldn’t be to stop her from setting off wildfire (knocking her over the head with something would be just as effective), but as a moment of pure rage. Killing Cersei as a way of killing Jaime’s past self is on par with those guys who murder their entire family so that they can “start over” without any baggage. So while I don’t want to two of them to die in a loving embrace, it would still be infinitely better than that.

Cersei is an evil person and deserves to die, but I agree that Jaime murdering her wouldn't make him a better person. Murdering Tywin only made Tyrion a worse person in every way, so I don't want Jaime to go through the same thing.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Jaime killed Cersei, it would destroy his character arc, not complete it. Strangling your lover to death is an act of extreme domestic violence, and it probably wouldn’t be to stop her from setting off wildfire (knocking her over the head with something would be just as effective), but as a moment of pure rage. Killing Cersei as a way of killing Jaime’s past self is on par with those guys who murder their entire family so that they can “start over” without any baggage. So while I don’t want to two of them to die in a loving embrace, it would still be infinitely better than that.

I agree with you. this would destroy his redemption but it is likely to happen and is not at all out of character. honestly I can live with it if it happens more irrationally than anything else and he kills himself afterwards. the thing that made him see Cersei in a more clear light wasn't being away from her for so long or Brienne , it was Tyrion and his words that took him out of his love story bubble and made him see what he was really doing in the name of this woman. but the thing is Jaimie can never be some respectable knight like his hero Arthur Dayne. even now that he is trying to do the right thing , he mentally tortures Edmure Tully and threatens an unborn child and he burns his sister's letter and leaves her at the mercy of the faith more out of spite and anger than anything else...  not to mention he's been thinking and dreaming about suffocating Cersei which is far from healthy!

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9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Jaime killed Cersei, it would destroy his character arc, not complete it. Strangling your lover to death is an act of extreme domestic violence, and it probably wouldn’t be to stop her from setting off wildfire (knocking her over the head with something would be just as effective), but as a moment of pure rage. Killing Cersei as a way of killing Jaime’s past self is on par with those guys who murder their entire family so that they can “start over” without any baggage. So while I don’t want to two of them to die in a loving embrace, it would still be infinitely better than that.

She is no longer his lover, but an abusive woman who was manipulating him by using her charms and sex, leading him to break his knight's oath which includes the protection of innocents. She is a threat to innocents and will not stop threatening their lifes until she is put to death, her blood should be upon her, not Jaime. But I don't mind if someone else takes care of her, she has to die as quickly as possible.

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1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

She is no longer his lover, but an abusive woman who was manipulating him by using her charms and sex, leading him to break his knight's oath which includes the protection of innocents. She is a threat to innocents and will not stop threatening their lifes until she is put to death, her blood should be upon her, not Jaime. But I don't mind if someone else takes care of her, she has to die as quickly as possible.

I’m fairly certain that he kills her after discovering that she’s murdered Myrcella and/or Tommen. My long term predictions for Cersei’s chapters are that she wins her trial, tries to get back into power, allies with her septa or a novice (Tyene) and Lady Nym. But then Aegon, Arianne, and JonCon take King’s Landing and she flees to Casterly Rock. In the process of the siege, Tommen dies (probably by Lady Nym, although I’ve started to wonder if he’s crushed by fallen rocks). At Casterly Rock, she crowns Myrcella as queen-in-exile (gold her crown). Myrcella’s legitimacy may be bolstered If the High Septon is now Luceon Frey, sort of like the Avignon Papacy. This would be the plot of TWOW, and then in ADOS Cersei tries to figure out how to take back Westeros and/or sever the Westerlands as a separate kingdom. Eventually, Tyrion and the Second Sons move against Casterly Rock on behalf of Daenerys, using the drain pipes. Somewhere in there, Jaime has figured his plot in the Riverlands out and chosen to return to Cersei and his daughter. But when Tyrion enters the castle, Cersei remembers his “tour joy will turn to ash in your mouth” speech and uses her poison for Tommen on Myrcella. Jaime, having returned to protect his remaining child, kills her in a fit of rage based on her actions.

I’m less inclined to care about the method, but strangling her with a golden hand of the gold of Casterly Rock is somewhat poetic for Tywin’s heir.

I imagine her plot is resolved in the first 1/3 or 1/2 of ADOS, when the political ends are tied up but before the final battle against the Others. Dany’s conquest is probably juxtaposed against whatever Northern shenanigans are going on with the Others, so the front half will be death-heavy for characters like Aegon, Arianne, Cersei, etc. and the back end will be Others/Starks driven.

As far as Jaime goes, I think it doesnt undo his redemption. “The things I do for love” has always been about his toxic love for Cersei, but if he kills her, it ends that abusive relationship in the name of his daughter, an innocent child, and maybe also for his brother, who she’s abused for his entire life. He killed one king to protect a city, and killed a child to protect his own treason. now he kills a queen to avenge his family and live up to his knights vows. 

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Dumb & Dumber apologist, this might have nothing to do with the title since its tv show related. But Jesus do I hate it when people actively defend these idiots.

Another one is that I believe all/most prophecies to be complete bullshit and that this is just a distraction George created. I can see some of em happening (cerseis), but that would  be due to dumb luck because Cersei gonna do what Cersei always does.

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2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

She is no longer his lover, but an abusive woman who was manipulating him by using her charms and sex, leading him to break his knight's oath which includes the protection of innocents. She is a threat to innocents and will not stop threatening their lifes until she is put to death, her blood should be upon her, not Jaime. But I don't mind if someone else takes care of her, she has to die as quickly as possible.

OJ was already divorced when he killed Nicole Brown, and I think most people would consider that domestic violence. I agree that Cersei needs to go, but it shouldn’t be Jaime who does it.

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Another unpopular opinion I have is that cersei is just tragic not evil. I mean like seriously, a big rapist like tyrion is beloved by the fandom and some want him to win but when cersei does something that is bad but not as bad as tyrion's she is turned into the source of all evil. Why is this I ask? 

I know I will be attacked mercilessly for it but I think it's a bit wrong to do this 

 

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1 hour ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I’m fairly certain that he kills her after discovering that she’s murdered Myrcella and/or Tommen. My long term predictions for Cersei’s chapters are that she wins her trial, tries to get back into power, allies with her septa or a novice (Tyene) and Lady Nym. But then Aegon, Arianne, and JonCon take King’s Landing and she flees to Casterly Rock. In the process of the siege, Tommen dies (probably by Lady Nym, although I’ve started to wonder if he’s crushed by fallen rocks). At Casterly Rock, she crowns Myrcella as queen-in-exile (gold her crown). Myrcella’s legitimacy may be bolstered If the High Septon is now Luceon Frey, sort of like the Avignon Papacy. This would be the plot of TWOW, and then in ADOS Cersei tries to figure out how to take back Westeros and/or sever the Westerlands as a separate kingdom. Eventually, Tyrion and the Second Sons move against Casterly Rock on behalf of Daenerys, using the drain pipes. Somewhere in there, Jaime has figured his plot in the Riverlands out and chosen to return to Cersei and his daughter. But when Tyrion enters the castle, Cersei remembers his “tour joy will turn to ash in your mouth” speech and uses her poison for Tommen on Myrcella. Jaime, having returned to protect his remaining child, kills her in a fit of rage based on her actions.

I’m less inclined to care about the method, but strangling her with a golden hand of the gold of Casterly Rock is somewhat poetic for Tywin’s heir.

I imagine her plot is resolved in the first 1/3 or 1/2 of ADOS, when the political ends are tied up but before the final battle against the Others. Dany’s conquest is probably juxtaposed against whatever Northern shenanigans are going on with the Others, so the front half will be death-heavy for characters like Aegon, Arianne, Cersei, etc. and the back end will be Others/Starks driven.

As far as Jaime goes, I think it doesnt undo his redemption. “The things I do for love” has always been about his toxic love for Cersei, but if he kills her, it ends that abusive relationship in the name of his daughter, an innocent child, and maybe also for his brother, who she’s abused for his entire life. He killed one king to protect a city, and killed a child to protect his own treason. now he kills a queen to avenge his family and live up to his knights vows. 

How on earth is this an opinion it's a prediction. 

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5 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

She is no longer his lover, but an abusive woman who was manipulating him by using her charms and sex, leading him to break his knight's oath which includes the protection of innocents.

You act like Jaime was Lancel instead of a adult evil  man who just happened to think with his cock a lot.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

You act like Jaime was Lancel instead of a adult evil  man who just happened to think with his cock a lot.

I didn't say he was a good man, but he was manipulated by Cersei, and she has a bad influence on him.

He still deserves to die, but as a hero to complete his redemption arc.

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1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

but he was manipulated by Cersei, and she has a bad influence on him.

He was manipulated to an extent. He willingly chose to embrace his kingslayer persona. Cersei had little to do with that. Nor did she tell him to kill children. That was on Jaime.

It's pretty convenient blame all his behavior on her.

 

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

He still deserves to die, but as a hero to complete his redemption arc.

My favourite heros are those who threaten to kill newborn babies. I love those.

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7 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor did she tell him to kill children. That was on Jaime.

True, although Cersei is no stranger to killing children, and unlike Jaime she's actually succeeded in it, several times.

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My favourite heros are those who threaten to kill newborn babies. I love those.

Context is important. Jaime only made that threat because he was certain it's what would convince Edmure to help get Riverrun's surrender without any bloodshed. Having just reread that chapter the other day, I personally don't believe Jaime would have carried through on that threat to kill Edmure's child; part of the point of Jaime's Feast storyline is how he's the odd one out of his siblings when it comes to being like their father. Tywin would have killed that baby, but as Genna said, Jaime was no Tywin. It was an empty threat, though a shocking one. But he knew Edmure, and he knew that Edmure would never let his child be harmed. That simple threat is what saved the lives of hundreds of people inside Riverrun, as was Jaime's intention.

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1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

True, although Cersei is no stranger to killing children, and unlike Jaime she's actually succeeded in it, several times.

Context is important. Jaime only made that threat because he was certain it's what would convince Edmure to help get Riverrun's surrender without any bloodshed. Having just reread that chapter the other day, I personally don't believe Jaime would have carried through on that threat to kill Edmure's child; part of the point of Jaime's Feast storyline is how he's the odd one out of his siblings when it comes to being like their father. Tywin would have killed that baby, but as Genna said, Jaime was no Tywin. It was an empty threat, though a shocking one. But he knew Edmure, and he knew that Edmure would never let his child be harmed. That simple threat is what saved the lives of hundreds of people inside Riverrun, as was Jaime's intention.

Well, there’s the question.  Would any of the more sympathetic characters kill children in their power, to make good a threat? Would Ned with Theon, or Jon with the children of wildlings?  Dany didn’t, and frequently gets criticised over it.  Would Jaime?  I would hope not, but if Edmure had defied him, he’d lose face among his soldiers.

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17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, there’s the question.  Would any of the more sympathetic characters kill children in their power, to make good a threat? Would Ned with Theon, or Jon with the children of wildlings?

Very difficult question indeed. The conflict between duty and honour is one that both Ned and Jon struggled with in their own ways. I could see plausible arguments for both decisions. I think with Ned and Theon, it'd depend entirely on how old Theon was if Balon rebelled again. The trauma of Aegon and Rhaenys's deaths still deeply affected Ned even fifteen years later, and Ned brings about his own downfall because he refuses to put other childrens' lives at risk (Cersei's children), so if Theon was younger than, say, 13 or 14, I don't see it happening. But a teenage Theon? Perhaps. I'm still not sure. Ned was cold and dutiful, but he wasn't ruthless like lords such as Tywin, Stannis or Randyll Tarly are.

I actually think there's a higher chance of Jon carrying through with the threat than Ned, both because he seems to be a more coldly pragmatic man than Ned, and also because the situation he's in would have been far more dire than another Greyjoy Rebellion.

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Would Jaime?  I would hope not, but if Edmure had defied him, he’d lose face among his soldiers.

It's important to note that the threat he made to Edmure was in a private setting with only a few witnesses, none of whom were lords or knights, thus the risk of word getting around was a lot lower. And the threat about the baby was only the very last one Jaime made, and all of the other threats he could have carried out easily, i.e. storming Riverrun and slaughtering everyone inside (almost all of whom were soldiers anyway). That's what Ser Daven wanted to do the whole time anyway, and would have been completely standard affair for a siege. It would have been impractical to wait for Roslin to give birth to Edmure's child before concluding the siege; it'd already dragged on for too long and everyone wanted it over with as soon as possible. Jaime could have easily taken Riverrun without having to carry through with the trebuchet threat, and his reputation wouldn't have been harmed.

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3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

True, although Cersei is no stranger to killing children, and unlike Jaime she's actually succeeded in it, several times.

This wasn't an apology to Cersei.

 Cersei being worse than Jaime doesn't make him good. That's some weird standards.

Arguing as if Jaime has not been as toxic if not more than Cersei or that the reason he's a dick is her is just trying to remove his stain.

And true Jaime doesn't kill more children, he's just unable to find more and happens to let them with paraplegia. Such a bro.

 

3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Context is important. Jaime only made that threat because he was certain it's what would convince Edmure to help get Riverrun's surrender without any bloodshed.

The reason he made that threat at all proves the point.

And there's a whole dialogue before that in which Jaime argues against people who make threats they know they won't make. I'm sorry but Jaime is not Daenerys, he has proven willing to do it before and attempted to do it once. If there's something he cares as much as Cersei is his ego and pride.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Tywin would have killed that baby, but as Genna said, Jaime was no Tywin. It was an empty threat, though a shocking one. But he knew Edmure

Jaime has tried to kill children dude. What are you trying to argue??

Hell, he tried to kill Arya because  he thought Cersei was saying her name while doing it.

 

 

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It's important to note that the threat he made to Edmure was in a private setting with only a few witnesses, none of whom were lords or knights, thus the risk of word getting around was a lot lower.

Do common soldiers not talk?? The risk of word getting around was higher. Since common soldiers would not see the need to keep their mouth shut. In fact Jaime was actually counting on the word to be spread, he was building up a persona.

 

 

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Jaime could have easily taken Riverrun without having to carry through with the trebuchet threat, and his reputation wouldn't have been harmed.

Could he have taken the castle?? Sure, Could he do it easily?? Absolutely not.

That was the whole point of the threat. Taking Riverrun would be incredibly bloody with no real guarantee of success. Which is why most wanted to take another course rather than dying pointlessly.

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On 11/5/2021 at 7:47 PM, Willam Stark said:

He still deserves to die, but as a hero to complete his redemption arc.

I don't understand this part of the fandom. Why do so many think Jaime has a redemption arc? Generally the first step of redemption is admitting, even if it's just to yourself, that you have committed wrong doings or wronged others. Following that, an active desire to make amends to those you have wronged. Or at the very least take action to change as a person to do and be better. None of that applies to Jaime.

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On 11/6/2021 at 12:31 AM, frenin said:

Could he have taken the castle?? Sure, Could he do it easily?? Absolutely not.

 

There's a fairly large chance the Blackfish would've been able to repel the assault. Siege towers (before the Middle Ages, building a earth ramp was more successful and more used tactic to gain the walls, siege towers were used to provide covering fire from catapults and archers) can only deliver so many men to the battlements and the land needs to be level and firm. Ladder assaults nearly always failed in real life. And to fill in the moat, you'd need work crews to be assigned (and they'd most likely be working without armor and weapons). The Blackfish is unlikely to let any of these preparations pass without a fight. 

On 11/6/2021 at 12:31 AM, frenin said:

If there's something he cares as much as Cersei is his ego and pride.

His whole AFFC arc is about him moving away from Cersei, and being a better person if his internal dialogue is any indication

On 11/5/2021 at 6:42 AM, The Young Maester said:

Dumb & Dumber apologist, this might have nothing to do with the title since its tv show related. But Jesus do I hate it when people actively defend these idiots.

 

I call them Dumber and Dogshit, just as a side note. 

Agreed for the most part, though. 

 

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On 11/6/2021 at 2:57 PM, Mystical said:

I don't understand this part of the fandom. Why do so many think Jaime has a redemption arc? Generally the first step of redemption is admitting, even if it's just to yourself, that you have committed wrong doings or wronged others. Following that, an active desire to make amends to those you have wronged. Or at the very least take action to change as a person to do and be better. None of that applies to Jaime.

I never considered Jamie's story to be a "redemption" story. He never even thinks of Bran, for example. His story is a very well written identity crisis. He only cared about sword fighting and his love of Cersei. He lost both. In the process of trying to figure out who he is now and what his life should be, he is becoming a better person. That's obviously good but redemption means more than that to me. I also think it is structurally very important that we didn't get Bran thrown from the tower from Jamie's POV. It makes it easier to sympathize with Jamie later when we finally get his POV and we get scenes like his jumping in the bear pit to save Brienne.

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