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Write here your unpopular opinion about asoiaf


Odej

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Catelyn is one of my favourite characters and her chapters were some of the best written in the series as well as the most consistent.

I love the King's Landing political side of the story but I personally prefer the northern plot, from Winterfell to the Wall, probably because Jon and Bran are my two favourite characters (and I do enjoy the magic in this series, but I'm glad it's not overt). That said, the Lannisters as a whole are way more interesting than the Starks to me.

I think Dany's story feels a bit....off in comparison with the others. First of all, while her book 1 storyline is basically iconic and sets up an amazing continuation, I feel like that didn't pay off in the next books. Specifically, having her stay in one place in Mereen is something I disliked. Second, I feel like the Targaryens could have been so much more interesting than they ended up being and, by extension, Dany. This goes back to worldbuilding but the Targaryens feel simultaneasly "alien" and too mundane, legendary but irrelevant. IDK, I feel like something more could have been done with them and the dragons. Again, thinking back to Dany's story in the first book and then to the rest of her story.....it just feels like something promising and meaningful became abruptly stale.

I couldn't care less about who Azor Ahai is or TPWWP or any of that.

I believe R+L=J but I think people put way too much stock in it as a sort of "key" to "solve" this whole story. That theory being true (and again I 100% believe it is, and that the reader is meant to know it) does not necessarily mean that the characters will know of it, will believe it, or that it will have a significant impact in the story (like making Jon be king at the end). It may honestly never be resolved and it could only be something known to the reader, to create a sense of irony or tragedy to us.

Sort of related to the above, I also couldn't care less about Robert's Rebellion and that whole era.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Catelyn is one of my favourite characters and her chapters were some of the best written in the series as well as the most consistent.

Agreed. I'd argue that her PoV is one of the most unique in the entire series. The idea of seeing a huge war through the perspective not of the heroic young king, but his mother, is very original, and I can't think of any other fantasy story that does this. Unlike Robb and his bannermen and friends, she doesn't glorify their war or celebrate battles, she just wants it to end, even if it means retreating and admitting defeat. Her love for her family was stronger than her desire to win the war and get justice/revenge. Her entire Storm storyline has this feeling of immense tragedy and doom about it, especially on rereads. The masterful writing makes it feel like the world just keeps getting darker and colder around her, and smaller, and that they're being forced onto a path that they can't turn back from, as much as she desperately wants to. None of this would have been possible if Robb was the PoV instead, as many people wanted (people more interested in battles than characters).

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5 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

Arya is hands down the worst character. She is a tired and commonly used stock character who contributes nothing to the plot but who nevertheless consumes pages upon pages upon pages upon pages of every damn book in the series I've read. 

Totally agreed. Compared to the rest of the Stark family, she's such a tired stereotype. The whole "girl with a haunted past that defies societal norms to become a fighter/assassin/rogue" is so lame and cliche. All of the other Starks - Eddard, Catelyn, Bran, Sansa - are more original and nuanced in their characterisation, and subtly subvert genre tropes. Arya does not. Martin's admitted favouritism for her is one of the biggest flaws of the series, in my opinion. Her storyline in books 2 and 3 is especially bad, because it has literally no impact on the larger storyline whatsoever, and is mind-numbingly repetitive - was it really necessary to have nigh-on 25 CHAPTERS about her wandering around the riverlands and getting captured by everyone and then escaping and then getting captured again and then escaping again? And after reading the eighth or ninth description of a burned village and slaughtered populace, it becomes excessive. We get it. The war in the riverlands was awful. You got your point across.

Brienne's PoV chapters in Feast do practically everything that Arya's tried to do, and much better and more intelligently.

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5 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Totally agreed. Compared to the rest of the Stark family, she's such a tired stereotype. The whole "girl with a haunted past that defies societal norms to become a fighter/assassin/rogue" is so lame and cliche. All of the other Starks - Eddard, Catelyn, Bran, Sansa - are more original and nuanced in their characterisation, and subtly subvert genre tropes. Arya does not. Martin's admitted favouritism for her is one of the biggest flaws of the series, in my opinion. Her storyline in books 2 and 3 is especially bad, because it has literally no impact on the larger storyline whatsoever, and is mind-numbingly repetitive - was it really necessary to have nigh-on 25 CHAPTERS about her wandering around the riverlands and getting captured by everyone and then escaping and then getting captured again and then escaping again? And after reading the eighth or ninth description of a burned village and slaughtered populace, it becomes excessive. We get it. The war in the riverlands was awful. You got your point across.

Brienne's PoV chapters in Feast do practically everything that Arya's tried to do, and much better and more intelligently.

I'm someone who likes both Brienne and Arya chapters, but one thing ACOK Arya had that was unique was the momentum of the war and its effects ramping up in the riverlands. Another thing that made the chapters special in that book was how they were juxtaposed off of Tyrion's many King's Landing chapters. As Tyrion smugly shrugs off the details he hears about ("I believe they call that war") Arya's chapters provide the horrors from the vantage point of the common folk.

In ASOS, her BwB chapters are so necessary as they provide some rare moments of light in what can be an oppressively dark series. Similar with Bran, a lot of what makes these chapters engaging for me is more about what's happening around the POV character than their own thoughts and arc, but still, I do enjoy them quite a bit.

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5 minutes ago, thi4f said:

The series was at its best in A Clash of Kings and it's impossible to reach those heights again.

 

Interesting. Why do you think that book specifically was the best, and not Storm? To me Clash has always been the odd one out of the 'Act 1 trilogy', because it neither begins nor ends the story/character arcs, and it feels plodding and inconclusive by its very nature. It doesn't have nearly as many iconic and significant events as either Thrones nor Storm do, nor as many big character developments.

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16 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Interesting. Why do you think that book specifically was the best, and not Storm? To me Clash has always been the odd one out of the 'Act 1 trilogy', because it neither begins nor ends the story/character arcs, and it feels plodding and inconclusive by its very nature. It doesn't have nearly as many iconic and significant events as either Thrones nor Storm do, nor as many big character developments.

I can't speak for Thi4f, but for me ACOK has such a grand opening set of chapters. It's when the aperture of the story first starts to widen, not just regarding the dispersion of the POV characters we know, but also with new POVs like with Theon. And accordingly, this is the first time there's a prominent interplay of details and themes across the chapters. It's a great way to start expanding the scope of the narrative.

The Battle of the Blackwater aside, I can concede that ACOK does suffer overall from a lack of arc resolution by the end. But by the same token, I think that ASOS has a bit of a personality crisis at its beginning, as everything feels like a direct continuation of what was going on at the end of ACOK rather than its own grand opening. Some of those early ASOS chapters are absolutely masterful, like Tyrion's first chapter. But the overall effect of the opening nevertheless feels muted to me, like the conclusion of ACOK was muted.

Taken together, ACOK/ASOS is an untouchable arc!

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7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Arya is hands down the worst character. She is a tired and commonly used stock character who contributes nothing to the plot but who nevertheless consumes pages upon pages upon pages upon pages of every damn book in the series I've read. 

Arya's chapters' concept is alright and somewhat necessary but  they sure feel a bit too much. I think they would have had the same impact and even more if there were fewer of them!

33 minutes ago, thi4f said:

The series was at its best in A Clash of Kings and it's impossible to reach those heights again.

 

really? why?...  it feels to me it should have been attached to aSoS . 

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5 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Interesting. Why do you think that book specifically was the best, and not Storm? To me Clash has always been the odd one out of the 'Act 1 trilogy', because it neither begins nor ends the story/character arcs, and it feels plodding and inconclusive by its very nature. It doesn't have nearly as many iconic and significant events as either Thrones nor Storm do, nor as many big character developments.

I've always believed that during ACOK pretty much everything was still on the table (plotwise), and it made for a thrilling and very immersive read. I was so excited to see all the army movements, characters traversing Westeros with important tasks, political meanderings of Tyrion and co. in King's Landing. So many scenarios seemed plausible at the time. Just to give a couple examples off the top of my head:

  • how will Greyjoy invasion affect Robb's plans,
  • what lies beyond The Wall,
  • will Tyrion uncover who was responsible for Jon Arryn's death, or who sent the assassin to Bran's bedroom,
  • what are Stannis next moves, what is this guy's all about,
  • is Theon really capable of taking Winterfell,
  • is it even possible to stop Renly Baratheon with his ATG armies,
  • are we going to see what Martells and/or Arryns are really cooking, etc.

The possibilities were endless, and at the time I fully trusted GRRM that his plot will ultimately be the most consistent, thought-out and satisfying. I think all the setup in AGOT was storytelling masterpiece, and I loved how logic and "cause and consequence" were Martin's only commandments.

And I still vividly remember all that looking at maps, drawing possible outcomes in my mind, paying attention to every detail, and then being "rewarded" with GRRM delivery. Especially during ACOK.

I think the first time I really doubted him came at the very end of the book, when Stannis ultimately lost Battle of Blackwater. That time I was really blindsided by the author and almost outraged because, according to my understanding, it was extremely unlikely for Lannister forces to catch up with Mace, strike a deal and then catch Stannis by surprise. I think it was my very first post on this forum, how I considered Tyrell and Lannister counterattack sort of deus ex machina.

But, up until that moment, I thought GRRM will never, ever pick favorites, he'll never grant any character a plot shield... and that ultimately the wittiest (Varys, Tywin), the most intriguing (Sandor, Qyburn, Marwyn) and most complex characters (Stannis, Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime etc.) will be the "center" of the story. (The names are just examples, alright?)

 

BUT!

If ACOK is 99% on Martin's scale, ASOS is almost as good (but for different reasons), say 97-98 points, with AGOT a lil' bit behind.

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10 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Arya is hands down the worst character. She is a tired and commonly used stock character who contributes nothing to the plot but who nevertheless consumes pages upon pages upon pages upon pages of every damn book in the series I've read. 

By far the most boring Pov, and the one that feels like it contributes nothing to the story.

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18 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

By far the most boring Pov, and the one that feels like it contributes nothing to the story.

To me that's Brienne. She would be pretty exciting to me if she was another interesting character roaming the realm, but as a POV? Uhh. 

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Dorne chapters aren't so bad, even though I dislike the Sand Snakes, especially Obara for who I have a special disdain. Arianne is quite a nuanced character, and Aeroh Hotah provide an unique POV with him being not native to Westeros and him remaining quiet for most of his chapters allowing a greater focus on observation of the other characters. 

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10 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Arya is hands down the worst character. She is a tired and commonly used stock character who contributes nothing to the plot but who nevertheless consumes pages upon pages upon pages upon pages of every damn book in the series I've read. 

I feel like Arya changes a lot. She realizes that killing that is not for personal gain. Her Faceless man arc is pretty boring but her BwB arc is fun. 

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