Write here your unpopular opinion about asoiaf

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Julia H. said:

And his descendant, the Greatjon will do it again!

Make Northumbria great again! We're going to build a wall and the Wildlings are going to pay for it.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

I think this has been brought up before, Val is a nobility of sorts, from a house that follows enatic(female only) or enatic cognatic(female before male, opposite of most Westerosi houses) succession and likely distantly related to Jon but, Morna as well.

Pins that fasten cloaks are one way to display coat of arms, whether house arms as usually seen or personal arms such as Brynden's fish being black or LF using a mockingbird. 

 

Quote

Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall. The Thenns had no family arms as was customary amongst the nobles of the Seven Kingdoms, so Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had done well. The bride's cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys's shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. The echo of the Karstark sunburst was there for those who cared to look, but differenced to make the arms appropriate for House Thenn.

 

Is it? From Jon and Sam chapters, this is one of the few instances of seeing wildlings with possibly heraldic devices, though in this case it is made for Sigorn, there are others as well like Harma Dogshead using dog heads on spears like a banner, Val's Weirwood face pin and perhaps also Morna's Weirwood mask, which itself would be a Weirwood face as being a mask it has a slit for mouth and openings for eyes.

Another thing, it is quite common for people to dress in their house colors...

Quote

 

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

 

And Val does just that here, dressed in white... and red, with the weirwood of her house fastening her cloak.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I fall somewhere in between the people who are pro-Brienne's AFFC chapters and those who are anti-Brienne's AFFC chapters. I like Brienne and enjoyed reading her chapters, but no amount of analyses has convinced me that she actually has an arc in AFFC. All the things she sees are things she already knows: war is hell, the highborn take advantage of the smallfolk, people mock and underestimate her. She doesn't even really come to terms with the fact that she loves Jaime. So while I am glad for the inclusion of her POV, I can't go as far as to say that they had much of a narrative purpose within that one book beyond being a way to eventually bring Jaime face-to-face with Stoneheart. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I fall somewhere in between the people who are pro-Brienne's AFFC chapters and those who are anti-Brienne's AFFC chapters.

The should just have been less of them. 

[Dofs]

11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The should just have been less of them. 

My unpopular opinion is that Cersei should have been the one with less chapters. I love her chapters, don't get me wrong, but they are the biggest pace killers of the book because despite her being arguably the main character of the book with the biggest amount of chapters, there is almost zero sense of progression in them until the very last one. Her chapters are just a combination of various interchangeable council meetings with her acting smug and stupid and all of it just blurs into one, you barely even remember what comes after what exactly in them. And not only there is no sense of plot going anywhere in her chapters (again, until the very last one where it was finally revealed where it was all going), Cersei also undergoes no character development arc at all, nor she even moves anywhere, Brienne at least travels from points A to B to C, etc. The Feast is already a slow book in the first place, and it's not good when your most prominent character in it doesn't seem to move the plot forward at all until the very end. Maybe that character shouldn't be so prominent and central then in order to have a better pace and hence a more pleasant reading experience.

[EggBlue]

Dany fans who attack every character of the series make me hope that Dany never succeeds in Westeros and loses battles to Jon, Starks , Martells, fAegon , Tyrells and the Others  

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:00 PM, Dofs said:

My unpopular opinion is that Cersei should have been the one with less chapters. I love her chapters, don't get me wrong, but they are the biggest pace killers of the book because despite her being arguably the main character of the book with the biggest amount of chapters, there is almost zero sense of progression in them until the very last one. Her chapters are just a combination of various interchangeable council meetings with her acting smug and stupid and all of it just blurs into one, you barely even remember what comes after what exactly in them. And not only there is no sense of plot going anywhere in her chapters (again, until the very last one where it was finally revealed where it was all going), Cersei also undergoes no character development arc at all, nor she even moves anywhere, Brienne at least travels from points A to B to C, etc. The Feast is already a slow book in the first place, and it's not good when your most prominent character in it doesn't seem to move the plot forward at all until the very end. Maybe that character shouldn't be so prominent and central then in order to have a better pace and hence a more pleasant reading experience.

Cersei is a damn good time, and her chapters are some of the most fun to re-read, but I think one of the problems with George’s writing, talented as he is, is that a lot of what he writes could be condensed. We don’t need multiple pages of Arya walking through a tunnel. Brienne and Sam’s chapters could have been cut in half without losing any of the important parts. I’m guessing that George is so successful that his editors don’t feel it’s their place to question him, but tighter editing could have improved some things (like if someone pointed out that the timeline should stretch much farther once you factor in how long it would take to travel in a place as big as Westeros).

[Mark of the West]

The entire Ironborn and Dornish narrative.  Minus Theon's story it's so boring. I understand the Planetos world needed a comparable Viking raider and Spanish story line, but really I sped through those chapters as quickly as possible. 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei is a damn good time, and her chapters are some of the most fun to re-read, but I think one of the problems with George’s writing, talented as he is, is that a lot of what he writes could be condensed. We don’t need multiple pages of Arya walking through a tunnel. Brienne and Sam’s chapters could have been cut in half without losing any of the important parts. I’m guessing that George is so successful that his editors don’t feel it’s their place to question him, but tighter editing could have improved some things (like if someone pointed out that the timeline should stretch much farther once you factor in how long it would take to travel in a place as big as Westeros).

When it comes to editors, at least in GRRM's case, they can only give suggestions, the final decision is still with the author. At one point, the editors wanted to remove a few instances of the phrase "Words are wind" in ADWD, but George refused.

[Dofs]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:15 PM, frenin said:

Now a real unpopular opinion. I will die on the hill that Martin completely reconned Jaime's behavior. He didn't try to kill Bran because he was trying to save his children, he did so because he was trying to save his and Cersei's necks, the Jaime Martin actually wrote was a character who didn't give one iota about his children for 2 and 3/4s books. But people wouldn't have been able to connect with the would be child murderer who tried to save his neck, so he kept pushing the idea that he did it for his children.

My popular/unpopular opinion about this is that the chapter where Jaime finds out about Joffrey's death perfectly explains Jaime's feelings towards his children, explains his behaviour towards them prior to losing his hand and his further behaviour after. The way I see it, it's just very hard for some people to let go of their first impression of the character.

Martin definitely changed Jaime's character but that happened before the first book was finished and finalised.

[The Bard of Banefort]

39 minutes ago, Dofs said:

My popular/unpopular opinion about this is that the chapter where Jaime finds out about Joffrey's death perfectly explains Jaime's feelings towards his children, explains his behaviour towards them prior to losing his hand and his further behaviour after. The way I see it, it's just very hard for some people to let go of their first impression of the character.

Martin definitely changed Jaime's character but that happened before the first book was finished and finalised.

I always found Jaime’s indifference to Joffrey’s death to be out of character. Jaime loves his family—Tyrion, Cersei, and Tywin—more than anything. It’s weird that he feels so little for his children.

[Corvo the Crow]

Crowfood’s daughter wasn’t kidnapped but went willingly with some wildling she fell in love with.

We saw through Jon’s eyes how hard and dangerous and tiring it is to climb the wall even on your own and even if someone else sends down a rope for you. Climbing while carrying someone else, especially someone who’s resisting and struggling would be near impossible and I’m not even mentioning the fact that someone is probably Umber-sized so even getting to the wall part would be hard if the person’s not willing.

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I always found Jaime’s indifference to Joffrey’s death to be out of character. Jaime loves his family—Tyrion, Cersei, and Tywin—more than anything. It’s weird that he feels so little for his children.

Did he love Tywin though? Or did he think he loved him because he was supposed to? Because his reaction to Tywin's death was very similar to his reaction to Joffrey's - both times he thought he would grief and both times he didn't actually care.

The thing with Jaime is that he had actual bonds between him and his siblings, actual reasons he would love them beyond just raw family connection. He had neither with Tywin nor his children. He likely rarely even saw his father when growing up, who was busy being a Hand, which made Jaime feel towards him more like a boss he should listen than an actual dad. Similar with his children - he wasn't allowed to make any connection with them and hence his feelings towards them became more like towards some distant cousins than actual children.

[Nathan Stark]

48 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Did he love Tywin though? Or did he think he loved him because he was supposed to? Because his reaction to Tywin's death was very similar to his reaction to Joffrey's - both times he thought he would grief and both times he didn't actually care.

The thing with Jaime is that he had actual bonds between him and his siblings, actual reasons he would love them beyond just raw family connection. He had neither with Tywin nor his children. He likely rarely even saw his father when growing up, who was busy being a Hand, which made Jaime feel towards him more like a boss he should listen than an actual dad. Similar with his children - he wasn't allowed to make any connection with them and hence his feelings towards them became more like towards some distant cousins than actual children.

That's true. Jaime respected the idea his father represents, but he has no discernable relationship with Tywin. We see the two of them together on the same page exactly one time, and it's when Jaime rejects Tywin's attemp to releive him from the Kingsgaurd. You really get the sense that Jaime really cares about Cersei and Tyrion. But it just doesn't seem he feels as strongly about Tywin. He honestly has a better relationship with his aunt Genna than he ever did with Tywin. I suspect this all applies to Cersei as well.

[Dofs]

28 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

That's true. Jaime respected the idea his father represents, but he has no discernable relationship with Tywin. We see the two of them together on the same page exactly one time, and it's when Jaime rejects Tywin's attemp to releive him from the Kingsgaurd. You really get the sense that Jaime really cares about Cersei and Tyrion. But it just doesn't seem he feels as strongly about Tywin. He honestly has a better relationship with his aunt Genna than he ever did with Tywin. I suspect this all applies to Cersei as well.

I think Cersei is kinda a special case. I agree that everything you mentioned about Jaime applies to Cersei too, but it's kinda irrelevant in her case since she can only love those she feels is an extension of herself anyway which excludes her father.

Cersei was happy that Tywin has died as it finally gave her the opportunity to rule as the Queen and I don't think her reaction would had been that different if Tywin was involved in her life as your usual father should.

[Dofs]

43 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

 We see the two of them together on the same page exactly one time, and it's when Jaime rejects Tywin's attemp to releive him from the Kingsgaurd. 

This actually gave me a thought that Tywin ironically might have had a closer relationship with Tyrion than with Jaime, because with Tyrion they had some common topics they enjoyed to discuss (mainly one - politics), while with Jaime there were none.

[Lucia Targaryen]

I really don't care about the Slaver's Bay plot line. I wish Daenerys had just destroyed the cities then moved on.

[Apoplexy]

23 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird that he feels so little for his children.

I think part of Jaime's indifference to Joffrey is resentment about not being allowed be near him or his other children. Plus Joffrey isn't a likeable person. One of my favorite quotes about this subject come from Downton abbey, when a character (Dickie Merton) says to his son (Larry) something along the line of 'I have loved you because you are my son but I have tried and failed to like you'. I can completely understand his indifference. Sometimes it's hard to love/like the people you should love/like. And Jaime seems to want to be involved in Tommen's life.

21 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

That's true. Jaime respected the idea his father represents, but he has no discernable relationship with Tywin. We see the two of them together on the same page exactly one time, and it's when Jaime rejects Tywin's attemp to releive him from the Kingsgaurd. You really get the sense that Jaime really cares about Cersei and Tyrion. But it just doesn't seem he feels as strongly about Tywin. He honestly has a better relationship with his aunt Genna than he ever did with Tywin. I suspect this all applies to Cersei as well.

People talk a lot about Cersei being narcissistic (which I agree with completely) but not enough about how narcissistic Tywin was. He only cared about how his children made him look, nothing about them as individuals. So i'm not surprised Jaime didn't have any relationship with Tywin. As for cersei, she takes after tywin too much. She is more than willing to use Tywin's position to her benefit without caring about tywin. So he got back from cersei what he gave.

[Apoplexy]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:21 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei is a damn good time, and her chapters are some of the most fun to re-read, but I think one of the problems with George’s writing, talented as he is, is that a lot of what he writes could be condensed. We don’t need multiple pages of Arya walking through a tunnel. Brienne and Sam’s chapters could have been cut in half without losing any of the important parts. I’m guessing that George is so successful that his editors don’t feel it’s their place to question him, but tighter editing could have improved some things (like if someone pointed out that the timeline should stretch much farther once you factor in how long it would take to travel in a place as big as Westeros).

I think GRRM's writing style is verbose. It's his characteristic and it applies to all the characters he writes. You like it or you dont depending on whether you like reading about the character he is writing about. But I agree with you, even with the characters I like, I think he can edit out a lot. I personally did not like the Ironborne characters and found reading through them pretty tedious, even on re-reads.

[frenin]

On 2/1/2022 at 10:02 PM, Dofs said:

My popular/unpopular opinion about this is that the chapter where Jaime finds out about Joffrey's death perfectly explains Jaime's feelings towards his children, explains his behaviour towards them prior to losing his hand and his further behaviour after. The way I see it, it's just very hard for some people to let go of their first impression of the character.

Martin definitely changed Jaime's character but that happened before the first book was finished and finalised.

No, I definitely understand why Jaime feels the way he does, even if they seem to me a very absurd excuse since he could definitely have bonded as an uncle with children he saw every day for a decade.

Now, that I understand him doesn't mean that two handed Jaime grew to feel nothing towards his children. And I still find Martin's insistence of him caring about them,when he was explicit in word and in thought about only really caring about Cersei and Tyrion, as a way for fans to forget that he crippled a kid and make his ¿redemption? far more palatable.

At the end of the day, saying that one tried to kill a child because he doesn't want to die just because he was got banging his sister sounds much worse than saying that one tried to kill a child to protect one's own children from a certain death.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lucia Targaryen said:

I really don't care about the Slaver's Bay plot line. I wish Daenerys had just destroyed the cities then moved on.