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On 1/5/2022 at 7:51 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Agreed, there's fourty families, you don't need incest to keep the blood pure. Maybe bedding your sister was nostalgia for the "good old days" when "Valyria was Valyria!"  just like the Romans did for 600 years. 

Valyria was just Alabama with dragons.

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10 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Mirri Maaz did nothing wrong

Fuck this, MMD was a babykiller who deserved to die painfully. 

25 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Valyria was just Alabama with dragons.

"Sweet home, Alabama!"

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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48 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

I think, to the massive disappointment of a lot of people, the book story will finish much similar to the TV show, despite people believing the show and the books are different things

I think so too, but I think George is a much better writer than the Ds, which makes all the difference in the world. One thing I think Dany fans should take comfort in is that whatever happens with her, George will write it in a way that makes sense for the character.

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7 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Fuck this, MMD was a babykiller who deserved to die painfully. 

Sorry, but no. MMD's actions do not exist in a vacuum. She was raped many times, saw her village destroyed, and saw people she knew and loved murdered, raped and taken into slavery. Her grievances against the Dothraki and against Dany were legitimate. Killing the prophesied "Stallion who Mounts the World" is also not unjustified, given what we know of the Dothraki. But more to the point, MMD was a slave striking back against her masters. This is a central part of Danaerys's justification for war against slavery. Her choice to execute MMD in the most tortorously painful way imaginable is hypocritical in the extreme. Understandable, but hypocritical.

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3 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sorry, but no. MMD's actions do not exist in a vacuum. She was raped many times, saw her village destroyed, and saw people she knew and loved murdered, raped and taken into slavery. Her grievances against the Dothraki and against Dany were legitimate. Killing the prophesied "Stallion who Mounts the World" is also not unjustified, given what we know of the Dothraki. But more to the point, MMD was a slave striking back against her masters. This is a central part of Danaerys's justification for war against slavery. Her choice to execute MMD in the most tortorously painful way imaginable is hypocritical in the extreme. Understandable, but hypocritical.

There is no justification to kill an unborn child.  Thinking of what that child MIGHT do in the future is no justification.  This is the same immoral decision made by Jon Snow to execute Janos Slynt.  Rhaego did not deserve to die.  MMD showed no remorse over it.  She even tried to play games with Khaleesi/Queen Daenerys.  She even boasted.  MMD got what she asked for.  She declared her life worthless.  Very well then.  Let it be so. 

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23 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sorry, but no. MMD's actions do not exist in a vacuum. She was raped many times, saw her village destroyed, and saw people she knew and loved murdered, raped and taken into slavery. Her grievances against the Dothraki and against Dany were legitimate. Killing the prophesied "Stallion who Mounts the World" is also not unjustified, given what we know of the Dothraki. But more to the point, MMD was a slave striking back against her masters. This is a central part of Danaerys's justification for war against slavery. Her choice to execute MMD in the most tortorously painful way imaginable is hypocritical in the extreme. Understandable, but hypocritical.

So killing someone because they MIGHT grow up to do something is A-OK? I get that right? 

Besides, killing a babe who can't exactly do anything to you, and then gloating to the babe's mother is screwed up. 

17 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

There is no justification to kill an unborn child.  Thinking of what that child MIGHT do in the future is no justification.  This is the same immoral decision made by Jon Snow to execute Janos Slynt.  Rhaego did not deserve to die.  MMD showed no remorse over it.  She even tried to play games with Khaleesi/Queen Daenerys.  She even boasted.  MMD got what she asked for.  She declared her life worthless.  Very well then.  Let it be so. 

I agree with this, except for the Janos Slynt thing. 

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18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ooh this one will make me some enemies:

Not only am I unconvinced that the story can be finished in two books, I’m not convinced that it can be finished in three either :worried:

They are not going to be finished either way. So in a sense, we'll have the ending we want and won't be disappointed.:cheers:

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18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know how unpopular this is, but it bears repeating: Fireball was not a badass. He was a dipshit who forced his wife to join the silent sisters so that he could live out his dream of being a bodyguard. Much like Criston Cole, he deserves an inglorious death.

if that is an unpopular opinion , then there certainly is something wrong with forum's members! that guy was a huge jerk !

here's the jerk list : Aegon IV> Criston Cole> Red Ronnet Connigton (may he die in wow chapter1) > Fireball  ... you could include Raegar based on the "ran off with the cliché unconventional heroine instead of staying with his wife" narrative.

 

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Alyssane - Jarhearys romance is too unrelatable . Martin should have stick with the idea of Alyssane being Maegor's daughter so that : 1) they became cousins instead of siblings 2)Alyssane's treatment of her daughter wouldn't have been so hypocritical  3) the "child of three..." in Dany's chapter wouldn't have been a total nonsense.

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11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sorry, but no. MMD's actions do not exist in a vacuum. She was raped many times, saw her village destroyed, and saw people she knew and loved murdered, raped and taken into slavery. Her grievances against the Dothraki and against Dany were legitimate. Killing the prophesied "Stallion who Mounts the World" is also not unjustified, given what we know of the Dothraki. But more to the point, MMD was a slave striking back against her masters. This is a central part of Danaerys's justification for war against slavery. Her choice to execute MMD in the most tortorously painful way imaginable is hypocritical in the extreme. Understandable, but hypocritical.

Agree. MMD's home was essentially attacked by ISIS, her people raped, murdered, enslaved, herself getting raped and enslaved. As far as I am concerned, she was too kind.

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11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

So killing someone because they MIGHT grow up to do something is A-OK? I get that right? 

Besides, killing a babe who can't exactly do anything to you, and then gloating to the babe's mother is screwed up. 

I agree with this, except for the Janos Slynt thing. 

Yes, it's Tywin Lannister's logic.  Kill the infants because otherwise they'll grow up to be as dangerous as the adults.  And, there is a logic to it, but I don't think that the narrative justifies it. One can sympathise with MMD, but killing Rhaego was never justified.

 

12 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sorry, but no. MMD's actions do not exist in a vacuum. She was raped many times, saw her village destroyed, and saw people she knew and loved murdered, raped and taken into slavery. Her grievances against the Dothraki and against Dany were legitimate. Killing the prophesied "Stallion who Mounts the World" is also not unjustified, given what we know of the Dothraki. But more to the point, MMD was a slave striking back against her masters. This is a central part of Danaerys's justification for war against slavery. Her choice to execute MMD in the most tortorously painful way imaginable is hypocritical in the extreme. Understandable, but hypocritical.

If Dany was killng infant children of slave owners as punishment for the actions of their fathers, then the argument for hypocrisy would stand, but she isn't.

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19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think so too, but I think George is a much better writer than the Ds, which makes all the difference in the world. One thing I think Dany fans should take comfort in is that whatever happens with her, George will write it in a way that makes sense for the character.

The “how you get there”, matters hugely.

Dany ultimately losing is something I can live with.  Dany being crudely vilified is not.

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14 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

So killing someone because they MIGHT grow up to do something is A-OK? I get that right? 

Besides, killing a babe who can't exactly do anything to you, and then gloating to the babe's mother is screwed up. 

I think I end up defending MMD because so many people just brand her as unequivocally evil for betraying Dany.

I'll definitely agree she took it too far, but after she lost her home, everyone she loved, was repeatedly raped, she just seemed all out of fucks to give. 

She owed Dany and Drogo nothing and was absolutely justified in lashing back at them. I think narratively this is an early hint that revenge is hollow and empty. 

But often everything here seems to get overshadowed by Dany being "betrayed" and dragons. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think I end up defending MMD because so many people just brand her as unequivocally evil for betraying Dany.

I'll definitely agree she took it too far, but after she lost her home, everyone she loved, was repeatedly raped, she just seemed all out of fucks to give. 

She owed Dany and Drogo nothing and was absolutely justified in lashing back at them. I think narratively this is an early hint that revenge is hollow and empty. 

But often everything here seems to get overshadowed by Dany being "betrayed" and dragons. 

Yes what she did to Rhaego was cruel and going too far, but after everything the Dothraki did to her people and to her it's not surprising at all that she did what she did and she was utterly right to say that she didn't owe Daenerys anything given that the damage had already been largely done.

Also it can be argued that she never really betrayed Daenerys since she never was on Daenerys' side nor pledge anything to her in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think I end up defending MMD because so many people just brand her as unequivocally evil for betraying Dany.

I'll definitely agree she took it too far, but after she lost her home, everyone she loved, was repeatedly raped, she just seemed all out of fucks to give. 

She owed Dany and Drogo nothing and was absolutely justified in lashing back at them. I think narratively this is an early hint that revenge is hollow and empty. 

But often everything here seems to get overshadowed by Dany being "betrayed" and dragons. 

I agree with this. Killing children is probably the single most evil thing to do that is highlighted in the series, and for someone who is closest to the profession of a midwife, perhaps even more so. Still, it must be taken into consideration that MMD was not in a position of power (quite on the contrary) and she couldn't choose the way to strike back. Also, she had undergone a trauma huge enough to make anyone lose their moral compass. It was the Dothraki who had turned her into this bitter, vengeful woman, who probably couldn't see any of the Dothraki (including Dany) as human beings - and that may actually have been her justification when she killed Rhaego. As we have seen other times, vengeance rarely affects only the guilty.

On the other hand, @sweetsunray had an interesting and convincing post, a long time ago, analysing MMD's behaviour and advice and arguing that MMD did not intentionally kill Rhaego (it was more like magic gone wrong) but she claimed it out of bitterness when she was accused of murder (a bit like Tyrion).

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32 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

On the other hand, @sweetsunray had an interesting and convincing post, a long time ago, analysing MMD's behaviour and advice and arguing that MMD did not intentionally kill Rhaego (it was more like magic gone wrong) but she claimed it out of bitterness when she was accused of murder (a bit like Tyrion).

I'm inclined to agree.  MMD warns Dany that no one should enter the tent once she begins:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"I will stay," Dany said. "The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him."

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

Dany bowed her head, helpless. "No one will enter." She bent over the tub, over Drogo in his bath of blood, and kissed him lightly on the brow. "Bring him back to me," she whispered to Mirri Maz Duur before she fled.

 

It's Jorah who takes Dany into the tent.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

An arm went under her waist, and then Ser Jorah was lifting her off her feet. His face was sticky with blood, and Dany saw that half his ear was gone. She convulsed in his arms as the pain took her again, and heard the knight shouting for her handmaids to help him. Are they all so afraid? She knew the answer. Another pain grasped her, and Dany bit back a scream. It felt as if her son had a knife in each hand, as if he were hacking at her to cut his way out. "Doreah, curse you," Ser Jorah roared. "Come here. Fetch the birthing women."

"They will not come. They say she is accursed."

"They'll come or I'll have their heads."

Doreah wept. "They are gone, my lord."

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

Dany blames MMD but it's Jorah who takes her into the tent despite MMD's warning.  MMD knew what would happen if something like this occurred.  MMD didn't have a choice after that because the birthing women refused to come and Jorah has already threatened to kill them for refusing.   

Edited by LynnS
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1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

I agree with this. Killing children is probably the single most evil thing to do that is highlighted in the series, and for someone who is closest to the profession of a midwife, perhaps even more so. Still, it must be taken into consideration that MMD was not in a position of power (quite on the contrary) and she couldn't choose the way to strike back. Also, she had undergone a trauma huge enough to make anyone lose their moral compass. It was the Dothraki who had turned her into this bitter, vengeful woman, who probably couldn't see any of the Dothraki (including Dany) as human beings - and that may actually have been her justification when she killed Rhaego. As we have seen other times, vengeance rarely affects only the guilty.

On the other hand, @sweetsunray had an interesting and convincing post, a long time ago, analysing MMD's behaviour and advice and arguing that MMD did not intentionally kill Rhaego (it was more like magic gone wrong) but she claimed it out of bitterness when she was accused of murder (a bit like Tyrion).

However, the App is explicit that her killing Rhaego was a deliberate act of revenge.

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