Write here your unpopular opinion about asoiaf

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Yes what she did to Rhaego was cruel and going too far, but after everything the Dothraki did to her people and to her it's not surprising at all that she did what she did and she was utterly right to say that she didn't owe Daenerys anything given that the damage had already been largely done.

Also it can be argued that she never really betrayed Daenerys since she never was on Daenerys' side nor pledge anything to her in the first place. 

Suppose Drogo’s khalasar never appeared, Ogo’s khalasar would still have murdered, raped and enslaved the Lhazareen, and no one would have spoken up for them.  Dany’s willingness to speak up did mitigate the horrors, even if it was only a drop in the ocean.

By way of comparison, Westerosi armies, like the Dothraki, are full of murderers and rapists, who treat civilians in similar fashion, although not every soldier is a murderer and rapist.  Yet, in general, we still regard those soldiers who refrain from murder and rape, and even try to prevent such things, in a better light than those who participate in them.  That is despite the fact that they serve alongside brutal men, and to some extent, it can be argued that they enable them.  Dany is like one of those better soldiers.

[Nathan Stark]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, it's Tywin Lannister's logic.  Kill the infants because otherwise they'll grow up to be as dangerous as the adults.  And, there is a logic to it, but I don't think that the narrative justifies it. One can sympathise with MMD, but killing Rhaego was never justified.

 

If Dany was killng infant children of slave owners as punishment for the actions of their fathers, then the argument for hypocrisy would stand, but she isn't.

The argument for hypocrisy is that slaves should strike back against their masters. MMD was a slave who struck back against her masters, which included Dany. Her own worldview justifies MMD's betrayal, just not when it's Dany being turned against. That's hypocrisy. Understandable, but hypocritical nontheless.

[Apoplexy]

37 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Suppose Drogo’s khalasar never appeared, Ogo’s khalasar would still have murdered, raped and enslaved the Lhazareen, and no one would have spoken up for them.  Dany’s willingness to speak up did mitigate the horrors, even if it was only a drop in the ocean.

By way of comparison, Westerosi armies, like the Dothraki, are full of murderers and rapists, who treat civilians in similar fashion, although not every soldier is a murderer and rapist.  Yet, in general, we still regard those soldiers who refrain from murder and rape, and even try to prevent such things, in a better light than those who participate in them.  That is despite the fact that they serve alongside brutal men, and to some extent, it can be argued that they enable them.  Dany is like one of those better soldiers.

My issue in this comes from Dany implying that because she spoke up and MMD's life was spared, MMD owes Dany something. She doesn't. MMD's village was pillaged and she was raped by men led by Dany's husband. She didn't owe Dany anything and her revenge against Dany wasn't personal. She was retaliating against the people who murdered her own people.

Having said that, I don't think Dany torturing MMD to death was hypocritical. It was personal for Dany. You kill my husband and child, I kill you. What was hypocritical was Dany thinking that MMD owed her something.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The argument for hypocrisy is that slaves should strike back against their masters. MMD was a slave who struck back against her masters, which included Dany. Her own worldview justifies MMD's betrayal, just not when it's Dany being turned against. That's hypocrisy. Understandable, but hypocritical nontheless.

So, if say, you or I were young girls, wed by force to a warlord, you're suggesting that the morally correct course of action would be non-resistance to any victims of that warlord who wished to injure us or our children?  Anything else would be hypocrisy?  Is that the standard which you would practise?

That's asking a lot.

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

My issue in this comes from Dany implying that because she spoke up and MMD's life was spared, MMD owes Dany something. She doesn't. MMD's village was pillaged and she was raped by men led by Dany's husband. She didn't owe Dany anything and her revenge against Dany wasn't personal. She was retaliating against the people who murdered her own people.

Having said that, I don't think Dany torturing MMD to death was hypocritical. It was personal for Dany. You kill my husband and child, I kill you. What was hypocritical was Dany thinking that MMD owed her something.

Daenerys could have just walked on by, saying to herself "Well, it sucks to be you."  Surely, one gives credit to someone who tries to prevent an atrocity, even if it's just a drop in the ocean?  

[Apoplexy]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys could have just walked on by, saying to herself "Well, it sucks to be you."  Surely, one gives credit to someone who tries to prevent an atrocity, even if it's just a drop in the ocean?  

Give credit, absolutely. Enough to forgive or forget the atrocities committed against MMD and her people, I would say not.

[Dofs]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys could have just walked on by, saying to herself "Well, it sucks to be you."  Surely, one gives credit to someone who tries to prevent an atrocity, even if it's just a drop in the ocean?  

Dany at that point fully embraced her life as the wife of Drogo, even genuinely begged MMD to save his life after what Drogo did to her and her people in front of Dany herself. As far as MMD was concerned, Dany was one of the Dothraki who did what they did. If I place myself in MMD's shoes, the only thing I would had been grateful to Dany after experiencing all that horror was simply giving me a chance to strike back and that's it.

[SeanF]

Just now, Apoplexy said:

Give credit, absolutely. Enough to forgive or forget the atrocities committed against MMD and her people, I would say not.

A fair point, and one reason why I so enjoy the confrontation between Dany and MMD is because one can sympathise with each.

Similarly, if a woman had tried to murder Robb, after her village was burned out by his men, I would sympathise with her, but I would not expect Catelyn to do so.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Dany at that point fully embraced her life as the wife of Drogo, even genuinely begged MMD to save his life after what Drogo did to her and her people in front of Dany herself. As far as MMD was concerned, Dany was one of the Dothraki who did what they did. If I place myself in MMD's shoes, the only thing I would had been grateful to Dany after experiencing all that horror was for simply giving me a chance to strike back and that's it.

How would you suggest Daenerys avoid her marriage?  Run away?  Take her own life?  Try to kill Drogo?

[Dofs]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A fair point, and one reason why I so enjoy the confrontation between Dany and MMD is because one can sympathise with each.

Similarly, if a woman had tried to murder Robb, after her village was burned out by his men, I would sympathise with her, but I would not expect Catelyn to do so.

I actually think Catelyn would sympathise with her.

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

How would you suggest Daenerys avoid her marriage?  Run away?  Take her own life?  Try to kill Drogo?

At least not try to save him, that's for sure.

[Lord Lannister]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A fair point, and one reason why I so enjoy the confrontation between Dany and MMD is because one can sympathise with each.

You absolutely can sympathize with both parties in this. The idea that MMD is supposed to be grateful for having been "spared" is absurd though. So after her home is destroyed and everyone she loved dead and being gang raped repeatedly she gets to be spared to be a slave to the person who did this to her. Gee, thanks. Dany means well, but she went at this with a fairly naive and entitled mindset. Which given she's fifteen, I suppose that can be expected. 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I actually think Catelyn would sympathise with her.

At least not try to save him, that's for sure.

I don't.  Catelyn is like a mother tigress for her children.  

The tale is written almost exclusively from the POV of royal and noble people.  The confrontation with MMD is one of the few occasions where we get to see one of the smallfolk explaining exactly what war means to them. We get to see the horrors of war in Westeros, but almost always from the viewpoint of the upper classes, who may have some sympathy, but consider that defending family interests or avenging wrongs to one's family is far more important.

[Apoplexy]

12 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I actually think Catelyn would sympathise with her.

Catelyn might try to put herself in that person's shoes, but I think she would be mad as hell.

13 minutes ago, Dofs said:

At least not try to save him, that's for sure.

Drogo was the Dany's husband and the father of her child. I don't see why Dany wouldn't want to save him. I'm not saying I condone cruelties against defenseless people, just that I understand why Dany would want to save Drogo.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ooh this one will make me some enemies:

Not only am I unconvinced that the story can be finished in two books, I’m not convinced that it can be finished in three either 

On a similar note, I think it's impossible for TWoW to be good enough to justify 10+ years of waiting. I believe a lot of people will be disappointed no matter what.

[Dofs]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't.  Catelyn is like a mother tigress for her children.  

The tale is written almost exclusively from the POV of royal and noble people.  The confrontation with MMD is one of the few occasions where we get to see one of the smallfolk explaining exactly what war means to them. We get to see the horrors of war in Westeros, but almost always from the viewpoint of the upper classes, who may have some sympathy, but consider that defending family interests or avenging wrongs to one's family is far more important.

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Catelyn might try to put herself in that person's shoes, but I think she would be mad as hell.

Catelyn would definitely be mad but she would at least see from where the woman was coming from.

The comparison between Catelyn and Dany isn't exactly correct though. What Dothraki did to MMD's village would be considered as horrific everywhere in Westeros, except for Iron Isles, this is something neither Catelyn, nor Robb himself would ever approve of. That's not to say that atrocities weren't ever committed by Robb's people but there is a different degree of responsibility between some soldiers going wild and actively ordering something like that. Cat would hate Robb herself if he did what Drogo did to a village.

24 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Drogo was the Dany's husband and the father of her child. I don't see why Dany wouldn't want to save him. I'm not saying I condone cruelties against defenseless people, just that I understand why Dany would want to save Drogo.

Drogo, first of all, was essentially her master she was sold to. Secondly, Drogo was also a mass slaver, mass murderer, mass rapist. Dany should have seen what kind of a monster Drogo truly was, yet she fell in love with him and became blind to what Drogo was doing. Ironically, if she wasn't forced to become his wife, if she saw the situation from the outside perspective, she would have put herself on MMD's side and be vehemently against Dothraki as her later crusade against slavery indicates. But when she was forced to become a part of the Dothraki herself, their slavery included, she actually became attached to their culture, started to embrace it.

Of course, Dany was very young, her personality not truly formed. I can understand that. But I am not going to pity her for what MMD did to her, at that point she was starting to become a part of something horrible. Thanks to MMD that was short lived though and prevented early.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On a similar note, I think it's impossible for TWoW to be good enough to justify 10+ years of waiting. I believe a lot of people will be disappointed no matter what.

I think one of the problems is that there are a number of theories we’ve all become so wedded to, and inevitably some of them are going to be false. Stannis might not beat the Boltons, Euron might now bring the Eldritch Apocalypse, Arianne might not marry Aegon, Tyrion might not become Dany’s advisor, Dany might not reach Westeros. I remember how absurdly convinced the ASOIAF “bloggers” all were that Bran was going to spend the rest of his life in the cave, to the point where they were still saying he would after the show ended, as if D&D would ever consider making Bran king on their own. After a few months, people will start re-reading the book and declaring it genius (that appears to be what happened with the last two books) but initially I think a lot of people will be gravely disappointed that their theories didn’t come true.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Catelyn would definitely be mad but she would at least see from where the woman was coming from.

The comparison between Catelyn and Dany isn't exactly correct though. What Dothraki did to MMD's village would be considered as horrific everywhere in Westeros, except for Iron Isles, this is something neither Catelyn, nor Robb himself would ever approve of. That's not to say that atrocities weren't ever committed by Robb's people but there is a different degree of responsibility between some soldiers going wild and actively ordering something like that. Cat would hate Robb herself if he did what Drogo did to a village.

Drogo, first of all, was essentially her master she was sold to. Secondly, Drogo was also a mass slaver, mass murderer, mass rapist. Dany should have seen what kind of a monster Drogo truly was, yet she fell in love with him and became blind to what Drogo was doing. Ironically, if she wasn't forced to become his wife, if she saw the situation from the outside perspective, she would have put herself on MMD's side and be vehemently against Dothraki as her later crusade against slavery indicates. But when she was forced to become a part of the Dothraki herself, their slavery included, she actually became attached to their culture, started to embrace it.

Of course, Dany was very young, her personality not truly formed. I can understand that. But I am not going to pity her for what MMD did to her, at that point she was starting to become a part of something horrible. Thanks to MMD that was short lived though and prevented early.

Catelyn’s own father put an entire village to the sword, because its lord defied him.  The lords of the Seven Kingdoms can be just as savage as the Dothraki.

[The Bard of Banefort]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Catelyn’s own father put an entire village to the sword, because its lord defied him.  The lords of the Seven Kingdoms can be just as savage as the Dothraki.

When was this?

Ironically, the Ironborn would have been down with Dany’s suggestion that they take the women from the villages they raided as wives.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think one of the problems is that there are a number of theories we’ve all become so wedded to, and inevitably some of them are going to be false. 

Personally, I don't get too attached to theories, so I'm not really worried about that. My big issue is that GRRM isn't taking so long because he's meticulously crafting the perfect novel, he is taking so long because he's trying to resolve massive problems with the existing story, and I worry it's going to affect the quality of the book in a bad way. 

[Dofs]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Catelyn’s own father put an entire village to the sword, because its lord defied him.  The lords of the Seven Kingdoms can be just as savage as the Dothraki.

They can be but when they are savage, that's the point. They are doing it exactly because it's savage to induce terror and fear, because everyone knows it's bad. This is why Tywin was raiding Riverlands, why Hoster burned the village, etc. They were perfectly aware what they were doing when they did it. They just didn't care. But other lords do, for example Stannis and Randyll geld their rapists, Jaime flat out beheads one. Overall, everyone in Westeros except for majority of Ironborn understand that this is bad. While Dothraki (and aforementioned Ironborn) don't, for them this is a normal behaviour.